Sunni - Shi'a unity

[YaAqsa]

/\ bro, i won't say there aren't some serious questions there, but my point was regarding the fact that even dhimmi's can fight alongside Muslims to protect their lands, so strategically, these disputes would be lesser in importance than the ones who would do away with anything that has mention of God.
we can settle differences afterwards, even if it's with the sword.
right now, something bigger faces you. looks beyond the smaller disputes.

Salaam alaikum wr wb

Everything you said in your long post above is very well put. It is a shame that most people can't look past such differences.

The Qur'an is clear on what makes one a Muslim. I'm sure many Sahabah had bad opinions of each other, maybe cursed each other or whatever, but that didn't make them not Muslim, they were just Human and made mistakes. So if people are cursing someone but still believe in Allah swt and Muhammad saws and the last day then that makes them a Muslim. Muslims should have akhlaq yes, but there are sunnis and shias without akhlaq, we cannot just call everyone without akhlaq a kafir or munafiq inshallah.

We should unite under our similarities, Islam, prophethood, instead of divide under our differences, historical matters and hadith. We all pray 5 salat, we have the same rakat, we love Muhammad saws and his family, etc...

Peace to all

 

[FS123]

I'm sure many Sahabah had bad opinions of each other, maybe cursed each other or whatever

No, this was not their character in hadith and quran, and prophet (p) wouldn't have allowed this.

Muslims should have akhlaq yes, but there are sunnis and shias without akhlaq, we cannot just call everyone without akhlaq a kafir or munafiq inshallah.

Correct.

We should unite under our similarities, Islam, prophethood, instead of divide under our differences, historical matters and hadith. We all pray 5 salat, we have the same rakat, we love Muhammad saws and his family, etc...

We can make peace with them but if uniting means trusting them, then I'm sorry. It looks like going out of fire and into the frying pan. Our situation is similar to that of Christians or maybe worse. We believe in Jesus (p) but they don't believe in believe in Prophet Muhammad (p). Similarly Shia don't believe in the rightly guided Caliphs, moreover, they consider them enemies and blame sunni for conspiring against Ali (r). I went into one of their majlis and they were praying that enemies has taken hold of Kabbah, that just freaked me out. They were calling sunni enemies. How can we trust them with beliefs like that? Unity is a two way path, unless you are suicidal.

but my point was regarding the fact that even dhimmi's can fight alongside Muslims to protect their lands

Correct, and that was my basis for making peace with them, Prophetic model is to achieve peace, he (pbuh) even made treaty with the oppressors (treaty of hudaybia) because that brought peace. They don't have to have the same beliefs, but unity and trust is something else.

we can settle differences afterwards, even if it's with the sword.

That is tantamount to taqyia, and we don't have that. And it is not righteous. In Quran, Allah clearly said that he is with the righteous and he will give victory to the righteous even if they are in small numbers, so stay on the path of righteousness.

 

[YaAqsa]

No, this was not their character in hadith and quran, and prophet (p) wouldn't have allowed this.


Correct.


We can make peace with them but if uniting means trusting them, then I'm sorry. It looks like going out of fire and into the frying pan. Our situation is similar to that of Christians or maybe worse. We believe in Jesus (p) but they don't believe in believe in Prophet Muhammad (p). Similarly Shia don't believe in the rightly guided Caliphs, moreover, they consider them enemies and blame sunni for conspiring against Ali (r). I went into one of their majlis and they were praying that enemies has taken hold of Kabbah, that just freaked me out. They were calling sunni enemies. How can we trust them with beliefs like that? Unity is a two way path, unless you are suicidal.



Correct, and that was my basis for making peace with them, Prophetic model is to achieve peace, he (pbuh) even made treaty with the oppressors (treaty of hudaybia) because that brought peace. They don't have to have the same beliefs, but unity and trust is something else.


That is tantamount to taqyia, and we don't have that. And it is not righteous. In Quran, Allah clearly said that he is with the righteous and he will give victory to the righteous even if they are in small numbers, so stay on the path of righteousness.

Well in all fairness, "rightly guided caliph" is not in sunnah nor in Qur'an. So belief in that is not part of the deen according to Qur'an and Sunnah.

 

[FS123]

Well in all fairness, "rightly guided caliph" is not in sunnah nor in Qur'an. So belief in that is not part of the deen according to Qur'an and Sunnah.

Rightly guided i meant Abu Baker and Umar. Prophet (pbuh) said the following about them.

The Prophet said of Abu Bakr and `Umar: “These two are [my] hearing and eyesight.”

The Prophet said: “You (Abu Bakr) are my companion at the Basin and my companion in the Cave.”

`Amr ibn al-`As asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who is the most beloved of all men to you?” He (the Messenger) replied: “Abu Bakr.”

And this is their supposedly first Imam's saying:
`Ali named him and `Umar the Shaykh al-Islam of the Community and said: “The best of this Community after its Prophet are Abu Bakr and `Umar,”

`Ali further said: “The most courageous of people is Abu Bakr,” and “The greatest in reward among people for the volumes of the Qur’an is Abu Bakr, for he was the first of those who gathered the Qur’an between two covers.”

^^ which they don't accept, which is perfectly fine with me. They are entitled to their beliefs. To them theirs and to us ours. My concern is different. I used to go to shia majalis because I wanted to know more about different sects before I choose one for me. And somethings I heard really disturbed me, one I mentioned. I'll quote it:

I went into one of their majlis and they were praying that enemies has taken hold of Kabbah, that just freaked me out. They were calling sunni enemies.

Who in their right mind will trust them? I'll repeat again, it doesn't mean we can't have treaty or make peace with them. I repeat again: to them theirs and to us ours. What more you guys want?

 

[Abz2000]

Originally Posted by YaAqsa
I'm sure many Sahabah had bad opinions of each other, maybe cursed each other or whatever


No, this was not their character in hadith and quran, and prophet (p) wouldn't have allowed this.

respected brother FS123,
my opinion is that you are sincere,
so i will try to correct your opinion on that point:

Once the Muhajireen and the Ansar argued, such that one of the Muhajireen said:
'O Muhajireen!' (meaning, come to assist me)
And one of the Ansar said: 'O Ansar!'
Upon hearing this, the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said:
'Is it with the calls of Jahiliyah that you cry out, while l am still amongst you?!'
[Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (8/137)]

And he became very angry at that."[Majmoo'-ul-Fatawa (3/456)]



they would even curse each other and then repent:

Abu Dharr, the leader of the tribe of Ghifar, and one who accepted Islam in its early days, narrates:

Once I was conversing with Bilal. Our conversation gave way to a dispute. Angry with him, the following insult burst from my mouth:

'You cannot comprehend this, O son of a black woman!'

As Islam expressly forbade all kinds of racial, tribal and colour discrimination, Bilal was both upset and greatly angered.

A while later a man came and told me that the Messenger of God, upon him be peace and blessings, summoned me. I went to him immediately. He said to me:

'I have been informed that you addressed Bilal as the son of a black woman.'

I was deeply ashamed and could say nothing. God's Messenger continued his reprimand:
'This means you still retain the standards and judgements of the pre-Islamic days of ignorance. Islam has eradicated all those false standards or measures judging people by blood, fame, colour or wealth. It has established that the best and most honourable of men is he who is the most pious and upright in conduct. Is it right to defame a believer just because he is black?'

Abu Dharr felt profound remorse. He went straight to Bilal's house and, putting his head on the threshold, said: 'This head will not rise from here until the blessed feet of Bilal tread on the face of foolish, impolite Abu Dharr.'

Bilal responded: 'That face deserves to be kissed, not trodden upon', and forgave Abu Dharr.

................yes they were human and were a rowdy lot who just came out of ignorance - Islam was continuously transforming them. :statisfie


non-Muslims were allowed to participate in defensive battles to protect their lands, it was usually on offensive ones that the Prophet (pbuh) had issues.

look at the bigger picture:

Sir Campbell Bannerman, [Prime Minister of Britain (1905-08)]
“ There are people who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources.

They dominate the intersections of world routes.

Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions.

These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations.

No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another

... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state,

it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world.

Taking these considerations seriously,

a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings

in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars.

It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.” - 1902



How Bush's grandfather

helped Hitler's rise to power

Guardian.co.uk

George W Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.



Adolf Eichmann: The Mind of a War Criminal


Later, Eichmann joined the Linz branch of the Heimschutz, a right wing paramilitary association of army veterans.
He considered joining a Masonic club that recommended itself to him because it excluded Jews.

He spent some time at an SS training centre and with an exiled Austrian SS unit before he was posted to Dachau concentration camp. From there he applied to join the SD, the Nazi Party Security Service, and was accepted for work at one of its Berlin branches.

He worked as a clerk in the section that monitored Freemasons before he was spotted by the head of the Jewish section of the SD, Edler von Mildenstein, who became his next 'mentor'.

Von Mildenstein took a special interest in Zionism and Jewish emigration to Palestine as a solution to Germany's 'Jewish Question'. He encouraged Eichmann to study Jewish society and history.......

......While rabble-rousers like Joseph Goebbels railed against the Jews, and called for ever harsher but directionless measures against them, the SD quietly promoted Jewish emigration. To this end Eichmann contacted Zionist envoys and even made a visit to Palestine in 1937.

Finally, he established an 'assembly line' system whereby a Jew could up at the Central Emigration Office with his papers and proceed from desk to desk until he arrived at the end, with a passport and an exit visa but stripped of his property, cash and rights. Within a few months, the office had emigrated 150,000 Jews.
After this triumph, Eichmann was ordered to set up a similar office in occupied Prague, and in October 1939 was appointed to Department IV D 4 of the Gestapo in Berlin, which handled emigration from the Reich.

Population Control, Nazis, and the U.N!Rockefeller & Mass Murder
The Rockefeller Foundation is the prime sponsor of public relations for the United Nations' drastic depopulation program. Evidence in the possession of a growing number of researchers in America, England, and Germany demonstrates that the Foundation and its corporate, medical, and political associates organized the racial mass murder program of Nazi Germany.These globalists, who function as a conduit for British Empire geopolitics, were not stopped after World War II. This United Nations alliance of the old Nazi right, with the new left, poses an even graver danger to the world today than it did in 1941. Oil monopolist John D. Rockefeller created the family-run Rockefeller Foundation in 1909. By 1929 he had placed $300 million worth of the family's controlling interest in the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey (now called ``Exxon'') to the account of the Foundation.The Foundation's money created the medical specialty known as Psychiatric Genetics. For the new experimental field, the Foundation reorganized medical teaching in Germany, creating and thenceforth continuously directing the ``Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Psychiatry'' and the ``Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Anthropology, Eugenics and Human Heredity.'' The Rockefellers' chief executive of these institutions was the fascist Swiss psychiatrist Ernst Rudin, assisted by his proteges Otmar Verschuer and Franz J. Kallmann.Eugenics & Racial Laws
In 1932, the British-led ``Eugenics'' movement designated the Rockefellers' Dr. Rudin as the president of the worldwide Eugenics Federation. The movement called for the killing or sterilization of people whose heredity made them a public burden. - The Racial Laws - A few months later, Hitler took over Germany and the Rockefeller-Rudin apparatus became a section of the Nazi state.The regime appointed Rudin head of the Racial Hygiene Society. Rudin and his staff, as part of the Task Force of Heredity Experts chaired by SS chief Heinrich Himmler, drew up the sterilization law. Described as an American Model law, it was adopted in July 1933 and proudly printed in the September 1933 Eugenical News (USA) with Hitler's signature. The Rockefeller group drew up other race laws, also based on existing Virginia statutes.​

The United Nations Headquarters complex was constructed in New York City in 1949 and 1950 beside the East River, on 17 acres (69,000 m[SUP]2[/SUP]) of land purchased from the foremost New York real estate developer of the time, William Zeckendorf.

Nelson Rockefeller arranged this purchase, after an initial offer to locate it on the Rockefeller family estate of Kykuit
was rejected as being too isolated from Manhattan.
The $8.5 million purchase was then funded by his father, John D. Rockefeller, Jr.,
who donated it to the City.[SUP][7][/SUP]
The lead architect for the building was the real estate firm of Wallace Harrison,
the personal architectural adviser for the family.

The Rockefeller Museum,
formerly the Palestine Archaeological Museum, is anarchaeological museum located in Jerusalem,
Israel that houses a large collection of artifacts unearthed in the excavations conducted in Ottoman Palestine beginning in the late 19th century.
The museum is under the management of the Israel Museum
and houses the head office of the Israel Antiquities Authority.[SUP][1][/SUP]

Just like with the bombings of Iraqis and other Arabs...which are blamed on 'al Qaeda'...this one smells of the Mossad. Please read an almost IDENTICAL Mossad operation (very well documented) on our Iraqi Jews: http://www.rense.com/general34/cart.htmAs hard for it is for decent people of any religion to believe, Zionists have sacrificed Jews for their own devices many times...it is a fact.The bombings in Iraq against Iraqis and especially the most recent blasts in Saudi Arabia killing Arabs are both Mossad templates. For the most part, Arabs don't kill Arabs in bomb blasts if it can be avoided.In Iraq, killing civilians in 'suicide bombings' can serve to turn Iraqis against the 'resistance' and toward the US occupation forces...at least that would be the logic for a Mossad operation.In Saudi Arabia, the bombings were immediately labeled as the work of 'Al Qaeda' ... a transparent joke.And now Turkey. Remember ALWAYS to ask yourself immediately: geopolitically WHO BENEFITS THE MOST?The majority of phone calls and reports of organizations taking 'credit' for bombings are probably bogus and not made by the people actually responsible. It's all too easy to manipulate.I just watched the BBC report from the synagogue bombing in Turkey...blood everywhere.I listened VERY CAREFULLY to this initial report...so as to soak up every detail before the spins began.1. Some 'official' said that they had received ONE telephone from a Moslem organization taking credit for the bombs.2. The reporter was VERY CAREFUL to emphasise that this organization has been quiet for a long time, apparenty inactive, and that everybody in Turkey was more than surprised to hear that this organization would allegedly be involved in such a major bombing.3. The reporter, to my surprise, was also very careful to emphasize that this Moslem organization has NEVER attacked Jews, and had always concentrated only on objecting to secular Turkish institutions.4. CNN few minutes ago, 'reluctantly' announced that the Turkish government does not believe that this crime was done by ANY local Turkish organization, but it is the work of an international organization. CNN, 'as usual', immediately contributed their own opinion: that the bombing was done by 'al Qaeda'. It has become very clear that CNN and Fox have turned into mouthpieces for the Zionist Israeli government.5. I would hope that the public will finally realize that there is scant evidence that al Qaeda exists today. Most of al Qaeda was vaporized in their caves in the Afghan mountains. This allows the CIA, Zionist, and Pentagon to conduct their manipulative wave of terrorism undisturbed, and no one will ever blame them. Please pay attention that ALL references and innuendos in the 'news' are just assumptions coming from 'experts' or 'authorities' provided to CNN and Fox by 'confidential unidentified military sources'.MY CONCLUSIONThe 'telephone call' claiming credit for the bombing means NOTHING, zero.Traditionally, many people make calls after bombings to put the blame on someone else.IMHO, this was likely a Zionist Israeli job with the trained media putting the blame on an 'Islamic' organization which the current Turkish government hates.Talking about crocodile tears, Israel just announced, as I am writing this, that they will be glad to help Turkey to 'fight terrorism and find the terrorists...'[SIZE=+1]sure...[/SIZE]

The Alexandria Church Bombing:


Minutes into the new year, an explosion rocked al-Qiddissin Coptic Church in Alexandria, Egypt. 25 innocent people dead (1). At least 97 innocents wounded (2). A 17-year old eyewitness ominously stated, ‘The last thing I heard was a powerful explosion and then my ears went deaf. All I could see were body parts scattered all over (3).’
All initial reports stated that a car bomb was the weapon used to carry out the New Years Day bloodshed (4). The US-backed Zionist dictatorship that runs Egypt typically went against the facts on the ground however, with the Ministry of Interior blaming the assault on a suicide bomber, and without a drop of concrete evidence, stating that the attack was carried out by none other than Al-Qaeda (5), which doesn’t exist (6), and whose leader, CIA agent Timothy Osman a.k.a. Osama Bin Laden, is long dead (7).
From AP, to Yahoo, to the New York Times, the liars that run the Zionist media immediately went into overdrive, vociferously promoting virulent garbage about ‘sectarian tensions’ between Muslims and Christians in Egypt being inflamed after the bombing (8). Of course there is no evidence of such ‘sectarian tension,’ but the mouthpieces of Israel, from the television to print, have no interest in telling the truth and they never have.
Not promoted by the Zionist media is the longstanding unity between Egypt’s Muslims and Coptic Minority (9), nor has it been promoted that Islamic and Christian leaders have stood side by side in the aftermath of the bombing, which wounded innocents from both faiths (10). The enmity between the two religious groups is nothing more than carefully concocted Zionist fiction.
There is only one entity in the entire region that benefits from religious division in any Middle Eastern nation: Israel. One of the key strategic goals of the Zionist entity in Egypt is to trigger a communal war between Muslims and Christians (11). The Lebanese Resistance movement, Hezbollah, condemned the bombing, declaring it ‘serves the Zionist scheme… aimed at fragmenting our Arab and Islamic countries (12).’ All evidence, physical and circumstantial, points directly to Mossad being the culprit behind the al-Qiddissin church bombing (13).
In recent years, Zionist intelligence activity in Egypt has increased greatly. Tel Aviv was the hand behind the cut of Egypt’s maintain internet cable in January of 2008, severing Egypt from the international online network. Mossad was conducting surveillance on the phone calls of the highest tier of the Egyptian government. The Israeli agency employed a spy to infiltrate Islamic opposition groups in Egypt. All of this was discovered just days before the Alexandria church massacre, when a Mossad spy ring was busted, unveiling a plot of subversion that would target Egyptian telecom companies. This ring was connected to other Israeli espionage groups in Lebanon and Syria (14).
Egypt’s former Foreign Minister, Abdallah al-Ashal, and the Egyptian Bar Association have gone on record to state that the massacre at al-Qiddissin Church was the work of Mossad, reacting murderously to its spy network being unfurled (15).
In November, a warning was issued to the world that Coptic churches in Egypt would be attacked. The warning was issued by ‘Al-Qaeda-linked’ Islamic State of Iraq, who according to the Zionist media, carried out the horrific assault on Sayedat al-Najat Cathedral in the Karada district of Baghdad at the end of October (16).
This atrocious theory has been thoroughly debunked however. What took place at Sayedat al-Najat was a Mossad false flag operation, aimed at provoking tension between occupied Iraq’s Muslim and Christian communities, conducted with all of the usual tools: fake passports produced in Tel Aviv, Israeli-produced IEDs and the quintessential car bomb (17). The appalling murder of at least 58 Iraqi Christians was also used to cover up the condemnation of the Zionist entity’s occupation of Palestine by several prominent Christian leaders (18). The warning wasn’t issued by non-existent Islamic State of Iraq therefore, but Mossad.
The car bomb is the signature of the Israeli agency. It is the weapon that has been used to conduct sabotage, assassinations and false flag terrorism across occupied Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon and India (19). The Muslim Brotherhood, which was blatantly robbed by Zionist dictator Hosni Mubarak’s regime in the recent Egyptian elections (20), called for Egyptian churches to be protected after the fake Al-Qaeda group made its incendiary comments (21). But this call was not heeded. Only an hour prior to Mossad’s car bombing, Egyptian security forces inexplicably withdrew from their positions, leaving four policemen to guard the massive church with nearly 2,000 people attending midnight mass. The car bomb was detonated at the post that was left by Egyptian security forces (22).
This collusion between Israeli intelligence and Egyptian security forces is by no means surprising, considering the existing Israeli-Egyptian collaboration in illegally and brutally besieging the people of the Gaza Strip (23). The violent assault against the Coptic community on New Years Day was also executed to deflect the attention off of the stolen Egyptian elections (24); it is widely known that Egypt is a premier recipient of Zionist-occupied United States government aid money, receiving almost $30 billion in three decades (25). The usurping entity of Zion and its American counterpart couldn’t have their staunchest ally in the Middle East embarrassed by stolen elections. Answer? False flag attack.
The tactic being used to split the Muslim and Christian communities of Egypt is the oldest trick in the Zionist entity’s book: divide and conquer. It is widely known by the people of the Arab and Muslim world, especially Iraqis, that the only terrorism that exists in the Middle East (especially occupied Iraq), is the terrorism that is carried out by Israeli, American and British intelligence operatives (26). Divide and conquer has been used prominently in the Zionist-ravaged nation of Iraq, including a wall being built by an Israeli company to separate Sunni and Shia communities (27), and the nation of Lebanon, that was devastated by a savage civil war in the 1970s and 1980s contrived and manipulated by the Zionist entity (28) and the United States, with Zionist war criminal Henry Kissinger leading the way (29).
Muslims and Christians must stand together and reject these abhorrent divisions. People of conscience from all ethnicities, backgrounds and faiths must stand in solidarity with them. The victims of Mossad’s massacre at al-Qiddissin Church in Alexandria will not be forgotten. The fallen will be honored with sincere Resistance to all oppressive powers; be it the puppet Mubarak or the usurping regime of Israel itself.
Unified Resistance is what petrifies the occupiers more than anything else on earth.
Make them tremble; unity is an armor that cannot be pierced by their bullets or rattled by their bombs.


it is very different form taqiyya

 

[FS123]

I said:

I'm sure many Sahabah had bad opinions of each other, maybe cursed each other or whatever


No, this was not their character in hadith and quran, and prophet (p) wouldn't have allowed this.

so i will try to correct your opinion on that point:

Once the Muhajireen and the Ansar argued, such that one of the Muhajireen said:
'O Muhajireen!' (meaning, come to assist me)
And one of the Ansar said: 'O Ansar!'
Upon hearing this, the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said:
'Is it with the calls of Jahiliyah that you cry out, while l am still amongst you?!'
[Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (8/137)]

First, prophet didn't allow that, as I dictated by common sense.

Second, showing one (or even few) remote example(s) doesn't mean that was the character of sahabas. This is what is stated in Quran about the sahabas:

"You are the best of peoples ever raised for mankind, you enjoin good and forbid evil, and you believe in Allah." [3:110]

it is very different form taqiyya

Meaning? State your point clearly, please.

 

[Tyrion]

I think what the OP was getting at is that it's time we stop hating each other based on a few differing beliefs. Bottom line is that Shias are still Muslim. (albeit very misguided Muslims.)

i just went on a shia forum and the things they were saying about aisha (ra), abu bakr etc was making my head spin.

A forum isn't the best place to go to if you want to learn about a group of people... Even this forum makes my head spin at times, and I wouldn't consider it the go to place for people who want to understand Islam/Muslims...

 

[Abz2000]

United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]
Support from the U.S. for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives. On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC'sNightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into" the power it became",[SUP][5][/SUP] and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted—and frequently encouraged—the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq."[SUP][6][/SUP]

this lecture should explain it all - you may need to scroll 2 min: 25 s past the arabic part of the Khutbah:

peace

 

[Abz2000]

 

[Abz2000]

 

[FS123]

I think what the OP was getting at is that it's time we stop hating each other based on a few differing beliefs.

Thats what I've been saying all along, you see that if you read my posts.

 

[FS123]

abz2000 whats the point of this? I asked you to clearly explain your point. Give lots of text and videos doesn't help. As for the news we all know what is happening. And to that here is the following verse:

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried:"When (will come) the help of Allah"Ah! Verily the help of Allah is (always) near.

[Quran 2:214]

 

[GuestFellow]

I think what the OP was getting at is that it's time we stop hating each other based on a few differing beliefs. Bottom line is that Shias are still Muslim. (albeit very misguided Muslims.)

Salaam,

The differences are fundamental...I agree that there needs to be less hatred and more dialogue.

 

[Abz2000]

Brother,
If the answer is in the 2nd last post, the one with the lecture on jumuah, the image of the Rose,
I can't explain that much in text,
It's so well explained.
And the "news" was to show how they are manipulating us to weaken each other,
They support saddam in fighting Iran for six years, Saudi, kuwait etc help them out of fear of a Shia iran, then they execute saddam and film Shias cheering, then they step up rhetoric against Iran,
Is this the time for us to be divided?
They are taking Muslim nations down one by one and getting half of us to cheer while the other half weeps. And then vice versa,


Hadith - Bukhari 9.237, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle* said, "The Hour will not be established

* * *(1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine,

Maybe there is a big difference here but it's the only two big groups a I can see and the same Shahadah.
The main enemy is see here is Satan, causing turmoil and divisions.
And there are those who have a church of Satan (google it).

And did someone say they were kuffar for their foolish words?

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."




Volume 9, Book 88, Number 198:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not revert to disbelief after me by striking (cutting) the necks of one another."

 

[M.I.A.]

i think we as current muslims, sunni, shia and everything in between should be very aware that allah swt can replace us all.

we may not even be included in any united ummah. when it happens it will be due to allah swt allowing it to happen.

i do agree that the media pushes in a certain direction, if this is intentional, unintentional, planning/strategy or paranoia..ultimately we believe in a god.
its a matter of who you attribute power to? the media, the devil, shaikhs and mosque leaders.
ultimately there are six billion people in the world..and god is well aware of all of us.

a real god,
creator of the heavens, earth and all things between.
all things are a means to an end,
just depends on if you are content in what you do.

i know that i sound like some amateur dramatics production, i make myself cringe sometimes.

as for the sunni-shia issue, i dunno how you unite both without forgetting a lot of history.. i doubt that is acceptable to most.
maybe there will be an ummah in passing before there is an ummah in congregation.

 

[FS123]

Brother,
If the answer is in the 2nd last post, the one with the lecture on jumuah, the image of the Rose,
I can't explain that much in text,
It's so well explained.
And the "news" was to show how they are manipulating us to weaken each other,
They support saddam in fighting Iran for six years, Saudi, kuwait etc help them out of fear of a Shia iran, then they execute saddam and film Shias cheering, then they step up rhetoric against Iran,
Is this the time for us to be divided?
They are taking Muslim nations down one by one and getting half of us to cheer while the other half weeps. And then vice versa,


Hadith - Bukhari 9.237, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle* said, "The Hour will not be established

* * *(1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine,

Maybe there is a big difference here but it's the only two big groups a I can see and the same Shahadah.
The main enemy is see here is Satan, causing turmoil and divisions.
And there are those who have a church of Satan (google it).

And did someone say they were kuffar for their foolish words?

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."




Volume 9, Book 88, Number 198:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not revert to disbelief after me by striking (cutting) the necks of one another."

Listen br, I already said that we can agree to disagree and try as much as hard to live peacefully with each other. Read my posts properly.

 

[Abz2000]

that's where i'll say you haven't read my posts properly,
when you say "we can agree to disagree", "and each other"
you are imagining there are two groups - two sects,
that's where we fail,
if all of us gave that up and each one of us said - i am a muslim, and not from any such group,
it would put things in better perspective, break down a barrier, and get people to think for themselves rather than follow a group like sheep.

i already put a verse regarding this topic:

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and sincerely bowed his will to Allah's (hanifan musliman), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.
Quran 3:67-68

on the same note - it can be said that
Muhammad (pbuh) was neither a sunni nor a shia but he was true in Faith, and sincerely bowed his will to Allah's (hanifan musliman), and he joined not gods with Allah.
Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Muhammad (pbuh), are those who follow him, So also will Jesus (pbuh) and those who believe:
And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.


here's another:
The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon."
Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not;
but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
Quran 2:113

the prophet (pbuh) clearly told us to go back to the Quran and the sunnah as there would arise divisions after him,
then people can judge for themselves if they are on the right path without having to look to a sect for approval,
that's what makes them so stubborn, when any hadith are mentioned, they think it's a "sunni hadith" therefore reject it outright without even looking at the facts.
and i've seen some "sunnis" do the same with "shia hadith" despite the hadith clearly making sense.
i got these hadith from harun yahya's website and put them on my site, this guy showed them to someone else and the other guy told him that it was from a shia book therefore we shouldn't use it, i told him i didn't give a d**n because it made perfect sense and i'll even use texts from the previous scripture if they make sense.
Do you really believe some shia guy made this up 13 centuries ago when there was no electricity or satellites?:

Mahdi means: The One Who Is Rightly Guided

Certain it is that IN THE TIME OF HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)
IF A BELIEVER IS IN THE EAST HE WILL SEE HIS BROTHER IN THE WEST
.AND IF HE IS IN THE WEST, HE WILL SEE HIS BROTHER IN THE EAST.
(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 52, p. 391)


any of you got skype???

[SUP]Hazrat Mahdi (as) will (spiritually) conquer both east and west[/SUP][SUP]and cause Islam (the moral values of Islam) to rule the world
...[/SUP][SUP]ALLAH WILL BESTOW SUCH POWERS ON PEOPLE [/SUP][SUP]THAT
[/SUP][SUP]EVERYONE WILL HEAR HIS (THE MAHDI’S (AS)) WORDS, [/SUP][SUP]WHEREVER THEY MAY BE
[/SUP][SUP]and Imam (as) will give life to Islam...[/SUP]
(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 52, p. 27 and Vol. 53, p.12 Ikmal'ud- Din, Vol. 2, p. 367)

any of you heard of an international broadcast?

Sadir al-Sayrafi says: I heard from Imam Abu Abdullah Jafar al-Sadiq that: ...
He whose rights have been taken away and who is denied (HAZRAT MAHDI (AS))
WILL WALK AMONG THEM,MOVE THROUGH THEIR MARKETS AND WALK WHERE THEY WALK.
BUT THEY WILL NOT RECOGNIZE HAZRAZ MAHDI (AS)until Allah gives them leave to recognize him,
just as He did with the Prophet Yusuf (as).
(Sheikh Muhammad bin Ibrahim Nomani, al-Ghaybah al-Nomani, p.189)​

what are we doing?
the pillars are becoming rotten so i feel God's going to break it back down to the foundation and leadership will be taken away
then we're gonna go all the way back and build it back with tears and find leaders that will judge by the Quran and sunnah rather than their desires.
when all we have to do is argue on a level plain and not talk about these sects, when are we all gonna say we don't know what these sects are and say i am a muslim are you? then lets straighten some points out.

And to the brother who said:

i do agree that the media pushes in a certain direction, if this is intentional, unintentional, planning/strategy or paranoia..ultimately we believe in a god.
its a matter of who you attribute power to? the media, the devil, shaikhs and mosque leaders.

yes - it is a very old conspiracy:

3. We rehearse to thee some of the story of Moses and Pharaoh in Truth, for people who believe.
4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief.
5. And We wished to be Gracious to those who were being depressed in the land, to make them leaders (in Faith) and make them heirs,
6. To establish a firm place for them in the land, and to show Pharaoh, Haman, and their hosts, at their hands, the very things against which they were taking precautions.
Quran 28:3-6


and isn't UAE the place that brought in blackwater war criminal erik prince before all these mercenaries began destabilising the middle east?

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said,
"Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing)
and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."

how can we say these leaders are rightly guided and the ones in iran aren't - without looking at the facts and impartially finding the faults of all while searching our own souls, it's that group mentality.
the governments of saudi arabia, uae, egypt, tunisia, morocco, qatar, kuwait - are all guilty of kufr if you judge by that above hadith.
musharraf and karzai? your guess is as good as mine.

while the government of Iran are guilty of fusooq for their foolish words about the companions, and their practice of innovations,
but still Muslim since they still vehemently oppose the occupiers of Muslim lands and murderers of muslims more than any other government in the region.
how can we say we are ok with these kuffar governments and say we will not fight alongside the only government which opposes the open enemies of Islam?
i do not deny that i see a lot among those who claim to be "shia" which i shake my head at, a lot, but i see grave worship when i go past shrines in bangladesh, from some among the people who claim to be sunni, they even get police protection from "extremists". some even say the Prophet (pbuh) was not a man like us but was made from light, despite the Quran clearly telling the Prophet to say: i am but a man like you, but it has been revealed to me that your God is One God.

may God guide all of us.
i'll go the way imam muhammad ibn abdul wahhab did, and say that even the madhaahib do not have a monopoly on truth.

peace be to those who follow the guidance.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

my opinion is that you are sincere,

when two sincere people argue over their beliefs, then they are both right.

so i will try to correct your opinion on that point:

And there lays the problem, we strive to change others, when the only person we can change is ourselves. We are either a part of the solution, or we are a part of the problem.

We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers, despite all our differences. We should pray for each other that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater tolerance, understanding and friendship between all people.

Eric

 

[Abz2000]

brother eric, thank you for your kind opinion, the problem is not correcting a brother's opinion by telling him a fact when he may have mistakenly supposed a historical event to have been something else, it's like if you say 2+2=5 and i offer to give you the correct answer, it's not a problem, it's the duty of any muslim.

and your comment regarding FUNDAMENTAL differences sounds nice, but doesn't hold in faith, there always ends up a clash, people can unite strategically or on common goals or for the sake of human brotherhood or for hearing each other, but muslims know that out of all the lines drawn in the sand, only one is right. and it's our job to continue to strive to find that one, and to try to guide others to that light,

the person who wrote paul's section of the bible also doesn't accept major differences as the same thing either way:

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe,
that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say,
that every one of you saith,
I am of Paul;
and I of Apollos;
and I of Cephas;
and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided?
Corinthians 1:11-12

2 corinthians 12
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not:
lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you,
and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already,
and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
....I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me.......



i'll add one last comment for all to think about - from the near past - as i prefer to share info in a positive way without it turning into something negative and i see this turning into an emotionally charged debate:

it was what someone said when the nazi's were coming after one group at a time:

Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say)
but because we sensed better.
Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that,
when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist,
and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist,
and he did nothing;
and then the schools,
the press,
the Jews,
and so on,
and he was always uneasier,
but still he did nothing.
And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something—but then it was too late."



"Yes," I said.
"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true.
Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse.
You wait for the next and the next.
You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow.
You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’
Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it.
And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you;
it is also genuine uncertainty.


I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS AT THE MOMENT:

Annuit Cœptis (which encircles an illuminated left eye)
is translated by the U.S. State Department, The U.S. Mint,[SUP][7][/SUP] and the U.S. Treasury[SUP][8][/SUP] as
"He (God) has favored our undertakings." (brackets in original)
​

Ibn 'Omar said, "The Prophet mentioned the Dajjal (Deceiver) to the people.

He said,
"Almighty God is not one-eyed,
but the Dajjal is blind in his right eye,
and his eye is like a bulging grape.'" (Sahih Muslim)
​

​

​

[Middle English, from Old French seculer,
from Late Latin saecul

ris,
from Latin, of an age, from saeculum, generation, age.]​

Secularity (adjective form secular)
is the state of being separate from religion.
Secular and secularity derive from the Latin word saecularis meaning of a generation, belonging to an age.

NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM - IN BOLD LETTERS
NEW ORDER OF THE AGES

Anas ibn Malik said, "The Prophet said,
'there has never been a Prophet
who did not warn his people
against that one-eyed liar.
verily he is one-eyed
and your Lord is not one-eyed.
On his forehead will be written the letters
Kaf, Fa, Ra (Kafir).'"
(Muslim, Bukhari)

Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّارkuffār)
is a term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense,
usually translated as "unbeliever" or "disbeliever", or sometimes "infidel".
The term refers to a person
who rejects God
or who
hides, denies, or "covers" the truth.

• Ali was reported to have said:

His right eye will be punctured,
and his left eye would be
raised
to his forehead
and will be
sparkling like a star.
Only the believers will be able to read
the word ‘Kufr’ [disbelief],
inscribed in bold letters,
on his forehead.

Central Administrative Office:
Church of Satan, P.O. Box 499, Radio City Station, New York, NY 10101-0499
USA


The Cloven Hoof:
Magistra Blanche Barton, P.O. Box 210666, Chula Vista, CA 91921-0666
USA

​

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother abz2000;

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and how we each sense that something better could exist. Your example of complacency during the Nazi uprising was very good, and we should learn from history, we have to do something.

We have experienced rioting in the UK, there is a feeling of unrest in this country, how do we search for a solution. Do the Sunni band together, the Shi’a group together separately, then the Christians, Hindu, etc, do we all look after own kind.

We all know it makes sense to help each other, but something within human nature urges us to only support people the same as us.

What stops Sunni, Shi’a, Christians, Hindu working together towards peace on Earth.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our time

Eric