Surah 42: 15 Pacifism?

[Candle]

فَلِذَٰلِكَ فَادْعُ ۖ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَقُلْ آمَنْتُ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنْ كِتَابٍ ۖ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ ۖ لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ ۖ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ

"So, (0 prophet,) towards that (faith) invite (people), and be
steadfast as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires,
and say, "I believe in whatever book Allah has sent down. And I
have been ordered to do justice among you. Allah is our Lord
and your Lord. For us are our deeds, and for you, your deeds.
There is no argumentation between us and you. Allah will bring
us together, and to Him is the final return." (42:15)

I have read that this verse, "For us are our deeds, and for you, your deeds. There is no argumentation between us and you," has been abrogated due to the call to jihad. Is this true? It seems that the Prophet (PBUH) was advocating pacifism. What I think right is right. What you think right is right. We all, Christians, Jews and Muslims will go to heaven.

Obviously, this verse stuck out right away. I'm three Surah's past it and keep going back and wondering what it's all about.

 

[جوري]

ha? there is no abrogation ... why do you think that the call of jihad has anything to do with our personal deeds and journeying unto God? that portion of the verse you quote has nothing to do with Jihad or its abrogation, merely to say that each person is responsible for their own deeds before God!

I received this today from a blog I am subscribed to:

You, too, were once in the same condition - but God has been gracious unto you. [Surah Nisaa]
​

Narrated by Aboo Hurayrah that he said, I heared the Messenger of Allaah say:

There used to be two brothers from the Children of Israel, one of them used to sin whilst the other was a strong worshipper.

The worshipping brother never used to see the sinning brother except in the state of sin (always committing a sin). And he used to say to him "Decrease!" (in terms of how much sin he used to commit).

Then one day he found him committing yet another sin whereupon he proclaimed "Decrease!" So his brother said to him, leave me alone with my Lord (i.e only He can judge me), were you sent as a guardian over me?! So the worshipping brother said "By Allaah! Allaah will never forgive you! And you will never enter paradise!"

So their souls were taken (i.e they passed away) and were gathered infront of the Lord of the worlds. And (Allaah) said to the worshipper "Did you have any knowledge of Me? Or did you possess the powers that I possesss?"

Then (Allaah) said to the sinner "Go and enter Paradise by My Mercy" And (Allaah) said to the other one "Take him away to the Hell fire!"

[Sunan Abee Daawood 4901]

​

To benefit more go to: www.khaldun.wordpress.com

peace!

 

[Candle]

Hm. I see what you are saying, but many Muslim scholars believe in Qur'anic abrogation. This is the Tafsir to go with it by Mufti Shafi Usmani, recommended to me by a moderator here. (http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm)

The seventh sentence (For us are our deeds and
for you, your deeds) states that our deeds would be for us only and you
would neither gain nor lose due to our deeds, and your deeds would be for
you only and we would neither gain nor lose due to your deeds. Some
exegetes have stated that this verse was revealed in Makkah before the
command for jihzd with non-muslims was revealed; the verses conveying
the command for jihSid have cancelled this command, because the essence
of jihad is to subjugate those people by fighting who do not accept the
advice and exhortation - not to let them remain in the state of kufr. And
some exegetes have stated that this command has not been cancelled;
what it means is that since the truth has been proved through logical
arguments, its non-acceptance can only be due to enmity and obstinacy,
and as such, everybody is responsible for his own deeds . (QurtubT)

Your explanation makes sense, but does it not still seem as if He is saying that non-Muslims will be drawn to God as well?

 

[glo]

So their souls were taken (i.e they passed away) and were gathered infront of the Lord of the worlds. And (Allaah) said to the worshipper "Did you have any knowledge of Me? Or did you possess the powers that I possesss?"

Then (Allaah) said to the sinner "Go and enter Paradise by My Mercy" And (Allaah) said to the other one "Take him away to the Hell fire!"

[Sunan Abee Daawood 4901]


peace!

I don't fully understand why the worshipping Muslim was sent to hell.
Was it because he had made the judgmental comment about his sinful brother and assumed to know what God's will would be?

 

[جوري]

Hm. I see what you are saying, but many Muslim scholars believe in Qur'anic abrogation. This is the Tafsir to go with it by Mufti Shafi Usmani, recommended to me by a moderator here. (http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm)

The seventh sentence (For us are our deeds and
for you, your deeds) states that our deeds would be for us only and you
would neither gain nor lose due to our deeds, and your deeds would be for
you only and we would neither gain nor lose due to your deeds. Some
exegetes have stated that this verse was revealed in Makkah before the
command for jihzd with non-muslims was revealed; the verses conveying
the command for jihSid have cancelled this command, because the essence
of jihad is to subjugate those people by fighting who do not accept the
advice and exhortation - not to let them remain in the state of kufr. And
some exegetes have stated that this command has not been cancelled;
what it means is that since the truth has been proved through logical
arguments, its non-acceptance can only be due to enmity and obstinacy,
and as such, everybody is responsible for his own deeds . (QurtubT)

Your explanation makes sense, but does it not still seem as if He is saying that non-Muslims will be drawn to God as well?

what Muslim scholars believe in abrogation? the Quran came 'mosadeqan wa mohymenan' to what preceded it.. mosadeqan i.e testifying to the truth of previous scriptures and mohymenan i.e abrogating to some of its content, and it makes sense, since what works for one set of people might not work for another more modern people.. that is why the Quran is the final revelation, it is as you well not specific to a subset of people but to all of mankind.. things that banu Israel made unlawful unto themselves or because of a grievous sin they committed shouldn't be imposed on others.. Allah swt being all wise knows best the psychology and the evolution of mankind through the centuries to give revelations that should be transcendent.. So whatever 'abrogations' you are reading has more to do with previous scriptures but nothing at all to do with Islam..

Thank you for questioning what you are reading before rendering your own conclusions.. I do appreciate that..

and Allah swt knows best

 

[جوري]

I don't fully understand why the worshipping Muslim was sent to hell.
Was it because he had made the judgmental comment about his sinful brother and assumed to know what God's will would be?

he was an 'Israelite' and that is something you should take with God on the day of recompense.. just as he didn't know things of his brother and thought him in a constant state of sin, so are we lacking knowledge on what folks allege to be devout on the outside and something else on the inside!

all the best

 

[Candle]

what Muslim scholars believe in abrogation? the Quran came 'mosadeqan wa mohymenan' to what preceded it.. mosadeqan i.e testifying to the truth of previous scriptures and mohymenan i.e abrogating to some of its content, and it makes sense, since what works for one set of people might not work for another more modern people.. that is why the Quran is the final revelation, it is as you well not specific to a subset of people but to all of mankind.. things that banu Israel made unlawful unto themselves or because of a grievous sin they committed shouldn't be imposed on others.. Allah swt being all wise knows best the psychology and the evolution of mankind through the centuries to give revelations that should be transcendent.. So whatever 'abrogations' you are reading has more to do with previous scriptures but nothing at all to do with Islam..

Thank you for questioning what you are reading before rendering your own conclusions.. I do appreciate that..

and Allah swt knows best

Hmmuh.. I read about the concept of Qur'anic abrogation here: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656
Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad.

he was an 'Israelite' and that is something you should take with God on the day of recompense.. just as he didn't know things of his brother and thought him in a constant state of sin, so are we lacking knowledge on what folks allege to be devout on the outside and something else on the inside!

all the best

Words of wisdom. I'm writing this down in a footnote on my Tafsir.

 

[جوري]

Hmmuh.. I read about the concept of Qur'anic abrogation here: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656
Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad.

well as I stated it before, certain things for instance 'drinking alcohol' weren't outlawed all at once, it was a gradual thing, the love of God had to be established in people' s hearts before they could commit to it.. for instance with alcohol the day that it became a full prohibition, some of the sahaba were sitting in a bar in medina serving/drinking liquor upon hearing the ruling it was said that the streets of medina were red as of blood, but it is because everyone was throwing out their wine.. try to contrast that with the prohibition in the U.S which cost the states millions and loss of lives and more illegalities, because no one had a reason to commit to it.. if you see the previous verses on alcohol you'd read that it has benefits to people and harm, and its harm is more than its benefits which is entirely true.. and some sahaba like abu bakr was never big on wine even before the prohibition.. so it is a gradual step wise process so that the people would be able to withstand it.. not that the previous verses are incorrect, rather the law was laid out in gradations.

Words of wisdom. I'm writing this down in a footnote on my Tafsir.

I'd recommend you subscribe to khaldun's wordpress, he doesn't write often but when he does, I often learn something new..

and Allah swt knows best..

 

[glo]

just as he didn't know things of his brother and thought him in a constant state of sin, so are we lacking knowledge on what folks allege to be devout on the outside and something else on the inside!

all the best

That sounds very much like the criticism Jesus had of some of the Pharisees of his time - to be devout on the outside and observing all the necessary laws and rituals, but to be lacking compassion for their fellow human beings and kindness in their hearts.

 

[جوري]

That sounds very much like the criticism Jesus had of some of the Pharisees of his time - to be devout on the outside and observing all the necessary laws and rituals, but to be lacking compassion for their fellow human beings and kindness in their hearts.

if there are true remnants of Jesus' (p) sayings in the bible then that sure does sound like one of them-- being sanctimoniously pious doesn't equal to true faith nor true love of God or true compassion for ones fellows in this case, his very own brother!

 

[Candle]

well as I stated it before, certain things for instance 'drinking alcohol' weren't outlawed all at once, it was a gradual thing, the love of God had to be established in people' s hearts before they could commit to it.. for instance with alcohol the day that it became a full prohibition, some of the sahaba were sitting in a bar in medina serving/drinking liquor upon hearing the ruling it was said that the streets of medina were red as of blood, but it is because everyone was throwing out their wine.. try to contrast that with the prohibition in the U.S which cost the states millions and loss of lives and more illegalities, because no one had a reason to commit to it.. if you see the previous verses on alcohol you'd read that it has benefits to people and harm, and its harm is more than its benefits which is entirely true.. and some sahaba like abu bakr was never big on wine even before the prohibition.. so it is a gradual step wise process so that the people would be able to withstand it.. not that the previous verses are incorrect, rather the law was laid out in gradations.

So, further verses in the Qur'an expound on previous verses. It's a good thing I am reading the verses in a roughly chronological order. Otherwise, this would be somewhat more confusing than it is. I was browsing Khaldun's wordpress, and it seems beneficial. The short explanations are useful.