Talmud - Jewish secret "holy" book

[Hugo]

Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell.You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

And you exemplify self-righteousness in your answer to a simple question because you think it seems that any one who asks a question about Islam must in some sense be a bit on the dim side or hates Islam and that implies perhaps a kind of paranoia on your part?

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah. God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

There seems to be a contradiction here unless your interpretation of the verse is at fault or it only talks about Islam. One assumes there have been millions who were never sent a messenger so according to the verse they cannot be punished because they cannot obey commands of which they know nothing? On that basis it is seems safer never to know anything about Islam?.

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so. The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is before dying would be condemned in the Hereafter .

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.

I just need to be clear here - does this mean according to you that EVERY Muslim will go to heaven? If so we seem to have another contradiction because if we are each judged individually what is the value of becoming a Muslim, I can lead a perfectly honest, holy and good life without that so as it stands from what you say there is no advantage in Islam?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell
You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell....

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.

What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity? Is it your hope that we burn in hell? Or is it your hope that we might some day revert to Islam?

Is there an "Islamic" response to this, or is it up to each individual Muslim to respond as he/she personally feels?

 

[thetruth2009]

What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity? Is it your hope that we burn in hell? Or is it your hope that we might some day revert to Islam?

Is there an "Islamic" response to this, or is it up to each individual Muslim to respond as he/she personally feels?

Peace upon you Grace seeker, Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.


What I notice in the Quran there is only one religion From Adam to the prophete Mohamed SWS.

No 3 religions but only one.


Allah, Elohim, God call him how you wants he has the best name, send Prophetes and messengers in each community.

Moses, Jesus, Mohamed SWS are all sent by the same god no ?

The bible, the Quran was sent by god in language understood by these community no ?

Can you Imagine the Quran in Arabic sent to Jews or christians, they will say to god you send us a book that we do not understand, no ?

The Quran is sent to correct the Bible not to cancel it, if you think so, that mean Allah SWT does not know what is doing ?

That mean Allah SWT is sending prophetes to destroy what the previous prophetes had brought ? it is not logical ?????


What I notice we are very far away from what God asking us, we want to be above others.

Jews they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell

Christians they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell

Muslims they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell



How its possible, only Elohim, Allah, God knows best, we are not god to judge anybody.


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brother.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Quran is sent to correct the Bible not to cancel it

Is this not what I said above with regard to the NT and the OT?


Christians believe that the Law as understood by the Jews of Jesus' day had become corrupted. What God has actually will for his people was not in error, but the way in which people followed it. So, Jesus can and corrected the misunderstandings of what was meant by it. He also expanded God's covenant that had been made initially with just Jews to include the whole world. This new covenant did not have, nor did it need to have, the same ceremonial rules that the covenant God made with the nation of Israel. Thus, because the nature of the covenant that God made with people in the NT is different than that which he made with Israel in the OT, the specific rules for being identified as part of that covenant would also be different. But the overall principle which guide all of these covenants would be the same because it is the same God with whom the covenant is made. Jesus helps to move us from the specific commands of "thou shalt do this and shalt not do that" to the principled commands, "Love God, and love others." It is on this higher moral law that all the specifics spelled out in the Law and the Prophets hang. So, if you live by the principle of Loving God and lovinig others, you will truly keep Torah, even though you may not keep some of the ceremonial laws that were established to identify a person as a Jew like circumcision or dietary restrictions. Those things are not of the same level of importance as the overarching law to Love God and love others that Jesus sets forth.

If you think that Allah cannot make different rules for different groups of people, then you are saying that you think you know better than Allah as to what Allah can and cannot do.

 

[Lynx]

Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell
You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeY6...308FD717&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so.
The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is before dying would be condemned in the Hereafter .

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.

Come on, he said 'like myself' so presumably as someone who posts on this board talking to you guys he has been informed of the message of Islam. Lol.

 

[Predator]

What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity?

What isnt convincing for you ? Let us take Chapter 112 of the Quran the fundamental . "Allah is one and only , absolute eternal , does not beget and neither begotten and there is none like him " Could you explain how that is not convincing ?and then again there are further signs such as these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxZLB7qTS8

And No as a Muslim , I dont wish for any innocent person to burn in hell . I would only hope for people revert to Islam for their own good in the hereafter and do rightous works .

Come on, he said 'like myself' so presumably as someone who posts on this board talking to you guys he has been informed of the message of Islam. Lol.

Read his post , he said the word " who are not muslims " and not "rejecters of islam" , will burn in hell which includes people who have never had a chance to heard about Islam and even innocent such as includes children. and that is not true

One assumes there have been millions who were never sent a messenger so according to the verse they cannot be punished because they cannot obey commands of which they know nothing? On that basis it is seems safer never to know anything about Islam?.

That is just your assumption but God clearly tells us that he has sent a warner to every nation and tribe to worship him alone . By tradition , it is said that There were more than 150000 prophet sent on the face of the earth of which Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was the last one .
If they havent heard the message in order to not reject then they will be tested on the day of judgement and depending on that , they will either go to heaven or hell. he will thus not punish a person unjustly without any warning whatsoever as it would be like punishing an innocent . Just see the example of Adam and Eve We must trust God as God is just and all knowing

I just need to be clear here - does this mean according to you that EVERY Muslim will go to heaven?

No, Not every Muslim will go to heaven , There are many who associate partners to God by praying to the dead and that is shirk - an unforgivable sin if not repented before dying . Please do Check this out

http://www.truthexposed.co.uk/Dargah Worship equals Shirk.html

Other Muslims who believed and worshipped Allah alone ,but committed which other major and minor sins exceeded the number of their good deeds would be punished in hell for a limited time period depending upon the amount of sins and after the time is over and they will be granted heaven and thats why they its simply VITAL for everyone to believe that Allah is the One and only God and only one worthy of worship, glorification and supplication .

If so we seem to have another contradiction because if we are each judged individually what is the value of becoming a Muslim, I can lead a perfectly honest, holy and good life without that so as it stands from what you say there is no advantage in Islam?

Can you elaborate a bit more on that ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

And No as a Muslim , I dont wish for any innocent person to burn in hell . I would only hope for people revert to Islam for their own good in the hereafter and do rightous works .

So then it was not as a Muslim that you sent the following message to me

You're a typical christian coward who runs from God laws reasoning and logic and practiceand worships Paul the satanist who allows pork and alcohol. I hope you burn in hell along with your Paul whose rear end you kiss

Your words are full of hate in a way that is not becoming one who claims to seek guidance and follow Islam.

Nevertheless, I wish you peace. May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of true Islam, and not just a particular religious code.

 

[Predator]

So then it was not as a Muslim that you sent the following message to me

Your words are full of hate in a way that is not becoming one who claims to seek guidance and follow Islam.

Nevertheless, I wish you peace. May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of true Islam, and not just a particular religious code.

So then it was not as a Christian that you sent the following message to me

You've become a broken record. So scratched you're no longer worth listening to.

Your words are also full of hate that is not becoming one who claims to be Christian Pastor who has joined this forum to get an understanding about Islam.

Nevertheless, I hope Allah guides you to the truth . May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of the teachings and practices of Jesus who you call your Lord and not regret for having blindly followed a False Prophet Paul just because his agenda suits your whims and desires which could actually be harmful for you in the end

And regarding the point , if you dont repent and realise you're wrong and you continue to reject the truth , you will be punished in this world or in the hereafter thats what is written in your book and i said i wouldnt hope for "innocent persons" punished in hell , innocent is one who doesnt get the message and is thus not guilty . You on the other hand had been given more than enough proofs in this forum of how the wine and pork are killers and are forbidden on both books(Quran and Bible) and the science and stats of crimes due to drunkness have also confirmed the same and yet if you cant understand that an say its all legal , then God help you .

 

[Grace Seeker]

No. I own those words. Your words have become a broken record. Telling you this is, I think, entirely consistent with the Christian principals of sharing the truth in love. In the thread where I said that of you, you continued to repeat the same thing without ever giving evidence that you even bothered to listen to what others were saying. I don't believe that leads to edifying anyone. And I would hope for better for you than that.

As to my emotional feeling toward you. Uncomfortable would best describe it. I find you difficult, accusatory, and contentious in conversation. But I don't hate you. I only hate the feeling I get in the pit of my stomach when I read the venon with which you direct your writings toward those who disagree with you. And then I feel a sort of pity, for I sense that you don't even see this side of yourself. And I find that sad.

When you have something new to say, as you did in this thread, then I make an effort to once again listen and hear what you have to say. I may not agree, but I want to hear it so that I may better understand where each individual on this forum is coming from.

So, where are you coming from? Is your desire to witness to your own faith? To beat down those of different faiths? To wish people to hell? Or to undersand others who are different than you and love them to a new and better life? I see all in your writing but the last.

 

[Predator]

To beat down those of different faiths?

No not to beat down , more about comparing faiths and then trying to figure out where its could be going wrong as I beleive there is only one God and thus it would be thus only be one religion from the Start.

To wish people to hell?

Yes you're right i shouldnt have said that .Few posts can happen in a fit of rage and i am sorry . I should have just told politely to leave those proven evils like alcohol else you will end up digging your own grave in the end

Or to undersand others who are different than you and love them to a new and better life

How can you to expect to respect proven evils such as Alcohol,Gambling, Pork , Adultery , homosexuality etc which are also infact prohibted in your book as well and then love the people who practice them.

 

[Hugo]

What isnt convincing for you ? Let us take Chapter 112 of the Quran the fundamental. "Allah is one and only, absolute eternal , does not beget and neither begotten and there is none like him " Could you explain how that is not convincing ?and then again there are further signs such as these

But can't you see that I or anyone else can quote a scriptural verse, say from the Bible, and say to you "what is'nt convincing? What is not convincing is that one has to accept there is a God, he has the characteristics you say he has and that the Qu'ran is his message to mankind - all of which is unprovable that is why it is matter of faith.

That is just your assumption but God clearly tells us that he has sent a warner to every nation and tribe to worship him alone . By tradition , it is said that There were more than 150000 prophet sent on the face of the earth of which Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was the last one .

Yes it is an assumption and can be nothing else as we have no information as far as I know from many ancient civilisations. You make another assumption although you call it tradition about the number of prophets and I think mine about millions who have never heard is the more solid one.

Other Muslims who believed and worshipped Allah alone, but committed which other major and minor sins exceeded the number of their good deeds would be punished in hell for a limited time period depending upon the amount of sins and after the time is over and they will be granted heaven and thats why they its simply VITAL for everyone to believe that Allah is the One and only God and only one worthy of worship, glorification and supplication.

I can't really make sense of this as it seems to be about God keeping some kind of account book for each of us with every good deed getting plus points and every bad deed negative ones and one hope we are in credit with God. This tells me that no Muslim has any certainty of heaven because they cannot know what their score (I mean no disrespect but cannot think of any other way to say it) is with God can they? It also feel unjust - for example, if I had done many many good deeds and then I murdered someone I don't think any court anywhere would let me off because I had built up a good deeds portfolio?

Can you elaborate a bit more on that ?

I think I said IF we all have to stand before God at the last day and be judged individually, then there seems no advantage in being a Muslim, it brings no benefit as far as getting to heaven is concerned. Let me put it like this suppose you and I are roughly equivalent in out Good works etc I then as a Christian commit murder and you as a Muslim do the same then when we stand before God it would surely be unjust of him to say "oh, you are a Muslim, I'll let you off' (or vice versa).

 

[جوري]

Does it really matter where any of us think you are going or where you belong? That is your cross to bear and it is certainly something you are going to have to defend (should there be a day of recompense)!

Indeed, المشنا will be read as if common and complimentary, when you have a bird brain and can't distinguish whether sleeping with your daughters is a sin, you'll also not argue against very volatile passages against your own god!

all the best

 

[Predator]

But can't you see that I or anyone else can quote a scriptural verse, say from the Bible, and say to you "what is'nt convincing? What is not convincing is that one has to accept there is a God, he has the characteristics you say he has and that the Qu'ran is his message to mankind

Could you explain what is so convincing when the religion actually does have several similarities in your Bible as well .

http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/similarities.htm

all of which is unprovable that is why it is matter of faith.

Could you explain What is unprovable

And what about the absurdities and other unprovable facts in the Bible

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_scientific_absurdities.htm

Yes it is an assumption and can be nothing else as we have no information as far as I know from many ancient civilisations. You make another assumption although you call it tradition about the number of prophets and I think mine about millions who have never heard is the more solid one

Its isnt an assumption by Muslims

To every nation was sent a Guide or a Messenger
Al-Qur'an 35:24
Al-Qur'an 13:7


According to a Sahih Hadith in Mishkatul Masaabih Vol. 3 hadith No. 5737 Ahmad Ibn Hambal Vol. 5 page 265-266: “There were 1,24,000 prophets sent by Allah (swt).”

Yes i stand corrected about the number but every nation was sent a Messenger and thats what matters

I can't really make sense of this as it seems to be about God keeping some kind of account book for each of us with every good deed getting plus points and every bad deed negative ones and one hope we are in credit with God. This tells me that no Muslim has any certainty of heaven because they cannot know what their score (I mean no disrespect but cannot think of any other way to say it) is with God can they? It also feel unjust - for example, if I had done many many good deeds and then I murdered someone I don't think any court anywhere would let me off because I had built up a good deeds portfolio?
I think I said IF we all have to stand before God at the last day and be judged individually, then there seems no advantage in being a Muslim, it brings no benefit as far as getting to heaven is concerned. Let me put it like this suppose you and I are roughly equivalent in out Good works etc I then as a Christian commit murder and you as a Muslim do the same then when we stand before God it would surely be unjust of him to say "oh, you are a Muslim, I'll let you off' (or vice versa).

A good deed is rewarded 10 times , whereas the a minor bad deed is punished . Murder comes next to Shirk (associating partners to God)
Murder can be forgiven compensated the victim , truly repented and also if the victim forgives you for your action then you can be forgiven if God wills it else you will punished for a limited time in the hellfire

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes you're right i shouldnt have said that.

Thank-you. I accept your apology.

Few posts can happen in a fit of rage and i am sorry.

I understand. When one feels passionately, as we nearly all do, words sometimes slip out that we would rather not have said.

I should have just told politely to leave those proven evils like alcohol else you will end up digging your own grave in the end.

Did you know that I don't drink? Never have.

How can you to expect to respect proven evils such as Alcohol,Gambling, Pork , Adultery , homosexuality etc which are also infact prohibted in your book as well and then love the people who practice them.

I don't respect evil. But I do love the people, even if practice evil. I believe that God specifically calls me to do that, just as he does.

I know you quoted from Hosea earler (this thread or another, I'm not going to double check), what I think you missed is that God directed Hosea to marry Gomer and to love her, despite Gomer's infidelity, because he was a living example, a prophet re-enactment if you will, of God's faithful love to fallen, idolatrous and adulterous Israel.

 

[Uthman]

Shall we get back on topic now?

Is there even a topic to get back on to?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Is there even a topic to get back on to?

From the OP:

Non-Jews, in particular Muslims and Christians, should be aware of how Jesus (peace be upon him) and his blessed mother Maryam are depicted in the Jewish "holy" book Talmud.

I think we are. Despite the title of this thread, the book isn't secret. Some on here have given links to it. It is indeed written from a Jewish persepctive, and depending when in history that particular portion one is reading from is written, it is not going to be complimentatry toward anything having to do with Christiantiy, that includes Jesus.

 

[Hugo]

Indeed, المشنا will be read as if common and complimentary, when you have a bird brain and can't distinguish whether sleeping with your daughters is a sin, you'll also not argue against very volatile passages against your own god!

all the best

Is the referring to some weird Islamic law like the one about the Prophet marrying his adopted son's ex wife?

 

[جوري]

Is the referring to some weird Islamic law like the one about the Prophet marrying his adopted son's ex wife?

I have no idea what this means? Also there is no adoption in Islam, only sponsorship! .. folks marry and divorce all the time modern day it doesn't equate to man worship nor father sleeping and impregnating his daughters amongst other absurdities!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

I have no idea what this means? Also there is no adoption in Islam, only sponsorship! .. folks marry and divorce all the time modern day it doesn't equate to man worship nor father sleeping and impregnating his daughters amongst other absurdities!

all the best

I am asking what on earth you are talking about here with regard to man worship or impregnating daughters?

 

[جوري]

I am asking what on earth you are talking about here with regard to man worship or impregnating daughters?

and I am asking you what on earth does:

Is the referring to some weird Islamic law

mean or has anything to do with the topic?..
in fact what I wrote is of utmost relevance, if you accept strange occurrences in your bible that are utterly demeaning to God's chosen messengers as fact, then you have no reservations whatsoever if the talmud or Mishna refer to Mary as a (.....) or her son as (.......)!

all the best