Taoist statue deemed “offensive” to Islam

[Jayda]

You seem a bit hostile. You believe that Muhammad (SAWS) is not a Prophet of God or Allaah, alright fair enough, but therein lies the difference between my religion and yours. We believe that God is One, and doesn't need to have human attributes because he is superior to his creations. Let's not make this a religious debate/discussion, but you make God three therefore you believe not in monotheism but polytheism. That's just how I see it, take it or leave it. You find what he said insulting, why did you have to say something equally insulting, if not more, back to him? Insults are not needed here, I'm sure we're all civilized humans here and can have a normal civilized discussion. I think you need to let your guard down and stop being so hostile towards others; you labelled yourself a ''Catholic extremist'' all on your own accord, was that really necessary?

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.

I don't see a difference between the idols that Hindus or even the pagan Arabs of the Prophet's (SAWS) time and your statues of the Virgin Mary, that's just how I feel; barnone.

i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[wilberhum]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

I don't think they are offended.

Generally I find Buddhists and Hindus much more tolerant than most religions. :thumbs_up

 

[Jayda]

how do you know???? i have heard hindus say the exact same thing you have said about the statues of their gods - it is only a focal point, etc etc. to an outsider when they pray before their gods, it looks the same to me as when you pray before yours.
you are the one who brought your religion in to this discussion.
btw, what is this "caritas" that only catholicism has?

okay... and if that is what the hindus believe then that is what they believe. it is still blasphemy as it is directed against a god other than God. snakelegs, i know it doesn't matter to you since you are agnostic, but i tend to find agnostics are a little better at thinking (from a secular standpoint) objectively. do you really think it is reasonable for you to impose your agnostic belief that its one God by many different names on me when you know full well that has no place in Christian theology?

and ultimately, what is the point? i lend vocal support to not building what i consider to be an idol... while at the same time arguing against taking measures that physically harm people... just dismiss me as superstitious and put your energy into something more worthwhile

 

[جوري]

neither Buddhism nor hinduism qualify as religions, they are philosophical beliefs and cultural practices, There is no room for comparison.. aside from that a little google search can yield terrorists out of any group...


cheers

 

[snakelegs]

it's not the point whether hindus or buddhists are offended. jayda says that when she prays before her statues, it is only a focal point for prayer and i've heard hindus say the same.
to the observer, it looks identical.
i think we are in the midst of a battle of idol one-up-manship here.

 

[caroline]

Anyone who in effect says "my god is right and your god offends my god so you have no right honor your god" is not only an extremists but also totally intolerant of other people's beliefs and feelings.

Well, I never thought this day would come Wilberhum, but I actually AGREE with you.

:enough!:

 

[Jayda]

I don't understand how God used saints or in which context made a request for catholics to use them?..
I would personally find it a distraction to have so many different statues of Jesus.. black, white, hispanic, how can that set one in the right frame of mind?.. the statues don't make me feel fortune, love/ peace and I have no idea what 'rightful punishment in our place' means.. seems like a cop out for not wanting to take responsibility for our sins..

I'd not pick so much, except it seemed appropriate considering the circumstance.. I am sure the toaists can as well justify their statues?.. maybe their statues signify Jesus? Why should Jesus look like kid rock? Why can't he look malaysian?


peace!

hola,

Jesus can look like whomever the practitioner wishes to make Him look like... in western art he is depicted as a greek guy, in asian art as an asian, in african (especially ethiopian icons) He is depicted as a black guy. generally speaking Christians can recognize Him in art NOT by his physical appearance but rather by the context clues... a halo (signifying holyness), stigmata (signifying the crucifixion) and a lamb, somewhere (signifying the covenant). all focus our prayers on specific aspects of Jesus' life, ministry and significance...

God uses saints, prophets and apostles as servants or better yet like pawns on a chess board... through them (and for reasons not always known to us) He accomplishes great things... as signs and as directions for us. consider St. David, the king of Israel... God used Him to consolidate a kingdom and secure His covenant... consider then there is the example of St. Francis who literally gave up all his wealth to live among the poor, and who personally intervened in the crusades to end the bloodshed.

these are miraculous things... who could possibly deny that giving up all your wealth to help the poor isn't an immortal issue... there will still be wealth and poverty in the future... and forever there will be the glorious accomplishment of St. Francis to demonstrate that through God we CAN disattach ourselves from worldly things and follow His commandments. that is the only reason saints are saints (sanctified), because of what God has used them for...


que Dios te bendiga

 

[snakelegs]

okay... and if that is what the hindus believe then that is what they believe. it is still blasphemy as it is directed against a god other than God. snakelegs, i know it doesn't matter to you since you are agnostic, but i tend to find agnostics are a little better at thinking (from a secular standpoint) objectively. do you really think it is reasonable for you to impose your agnostic belief that its one God by many different names on me when you know full well that has no place in Christian theology?

and ultimately, what is the point? i lend vocal support to not building what i consider to be an idol... while at the same time arguing against taking measures that physically harm people... just dismiss me as superstitious and put your energy into something more worthwhile

did i say the gods hindus and buddhists is the same as the one god?
i am not trying to oppose my beliefs on anybody.
what i am saying is that your defense about praying before statues is the same one they will use - it is only a focal point for prayer.
not being catholic, hindu or buddhist - i do not know what is in their hearts - i only see it from the outside and it looks the same.

 

[Intisar]

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.



i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

If I keep my fellow Muslims ''in line'', lol that's funny you say that. Hey, let me remind you that this is islamic-board, I'm assuming you're able to read of course. I'm a mod of this section, and it's hard to keep up with everything that everyone says, so it'd do me a big service if you found an offensive post and PMed it to me instead of making an equally blasphemous remark.

I assume we're all adults here, well I'm almost 18 but that's besides the point, and for that reason we should act in a civilized manner instead of veering off topic.

PS. Any Muslim who believes in the Last Day and the judgment (or severe punishment) of Allaah would know that everything they do or say will be held to account.

Continue with the topic at hand, but If I find that this thread no longer serves it's purpose then it will be subject to closure. Fair enough?

Peace.

 

[Jayda]

it's not the point whether hindus or buddhists are offended. jayda says that when she prays before her statues, it is only a focal point for prayer and i've heard hindus say the same.
to the observer, it looks identical.
i think we are in the midst of a battle of idol one-up-manship here.

i assure you, when i am focused in my prayers, i am thinking about the God of Abraham... not thinking about Abraham, not thinking about michaelangelo... i am thinking about the God.

i am also not thinking about Vishnu, and that is the biggest difference you don't seem to understand. Vishnu is not the same as God, it is a cultural fairy tale. God is a specific entity that spoke to specific people and said specific people and yes, even showed up just to prove being Human and following His commandments at the same time IS possible.

different people

 

[caroline]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

Looks like a statue to me.
I don't think people worship those statues. I think they worship the people whose image they symbolize.

2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

hmmm... :X

 

[جوري]

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

What is 'smuggery' .. it is true Muslims keep the first commandment, I can't say that christians do though, I think there is room to point that out, considering catholicism is heavily immersed in idol worship, and not from an Islamic point of view, even protestants would say the same..surely all the velvet brocade, pretty candles and the sainthood of various lay men and women led in part to the reformation?

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.

And it is very christian like of you to call prophet Mohammed PBUH a false prophet?

i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

I don't see much difference between Jesus and kid rock, at least in his last mug shot, why is it so bothersome for Toasists to carve up some statues for worship, I mean how do you reconcile the difference by catholic standards? an idol is an idol, does it matter what name you slap on it?

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

I'll have to believe that you are here on your own accord, haven't seen anyone pound into you monotheistic worship? by the end of the day you'll still be a believer in a pantheon of God.. It is a focal point nor has been of anyone on thos forum to convert you or 'peer pressure' you!

cheers

 

[caroline]

[/B]

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

 

[Jayda]

If I keep my fellow Muslims ''in line'', lol that's funny you say that. Hey, let me remind you that this is islamic-board, I'm assuming you're able to read of course. I'm a mod of this section, and it's hard to keep up with everything that everyone says, so it'd do me a big service if you found an offensive post and PMed it to me instead of making an equally blasphemous remark.

I assume we're all adults here, well I'm almost 18 but that's besides the point, and for that reason we should act in a civilized manner instead of veering off topic.

PS. Any Muslim who believes in the Last Day and the judgment (or severe punishment) of Allaah would know that everything they do or say will be held to account.

Continue with the topic at hand, but If I find that this thread no longer serves it's purpose then it will be subject to closure. Fair enough?

Peace.

si, it is islamic board. but my questions about islam are not so important that i'm willing to deny my religious beliefs whenever you or any other muslim demands satisfaction in abuse of your invitation to me to post here. think about your responsibilities as a host before your responsibilities as a moderator.

but as i said before, you are the mod... if you disagree with something delete it. don't follow in NoName's footsteps by demanding that i give you (what you consider) blasphemous responses. it's extemely unfair of you guys to throw islamic theology at me to insult christianity and NOT expect me to respond truthfully. if i were a muslim my icon would reflect that, it does not.

 

[snakelegs]

i assure you, when i am focused in my prayers, i am thinking about the God of Abraham... not thinking about Abraham, not thinking about michaelangelo... i am thinking about the God.

i am also not thinking about Vishnu, and that is the biggest difference you don't seem to understand. Vishnu is not the same as God, it is a cultural fairy tale. God is a specific entity that spoke to specific people and said specific people and yes, even showed up just to prove being Human and following His commandments at the same time IS possible.

different people

yes, you are correct. the hindu is not praying to the God of abraham.
i thought we were discussing statues. i would find a great big statue of mary or jesus the same as a big ole buddha, yes.

 

[Jayda]

What is 'smuggery' .. it is true Muslims keep the first commandment, I can't say that christians do though, I think there is room to point that out, considering catholicism is heavily immersed in idol worship, and not from an Islamic point of view, even protestants would say the same..surely all the velvet brocade, pretty candles and the sainthood of various lay men and women led in part to the reformation?

protestants are outside the apostolic tradition and in a state of schism... i don't follow them.

And it is very christian like of you to call prophet Mohammed PBUH a false prophet?

of course, if i believed him to be a prophet i would be a muslim right? when i am so rudely and abruptly (as noname has done) demanded to acquisce to islamic theology, i respond by explaining why i don't believe what you believe.

when i am flat out ASKED what i believe (as sister ameena has done) i respond truthfully what i believe.

either way, my intention is not to insult, it is to remain faithful to my Lord and to be truthful.

I don't see much difference between Jesus and kid rock, at least in his last mug shot, why is it so bothersome for Toasists to carve up some statues for worship, I mean how do you reconcile the difference by catholic standards? an idol is an idol, does it matter what name you slap on it?

i've already explained the difference... if you believe it is okay for the taoists to build statues of idols (per your post) that is your business... obviously my original encouragement toward the muslims who do NOT break the first commandment wouldn't apply to you.

I'll have to believe that you are here on your own accord, haven't seen anyone pound into you monotheistic worship? by the end of the day you'll still be a believer in a pantheon of God.. It is a focal point nor has been of anyone on thos forum to convert you or 'peer pressure' you!

cheers

i was invited by a muslim poster (skillganon) to ask questions about islam because i was curious... yet i find most of my time is spent being insulted and having my religion misrepresented. i'm fairly convinced at this point islam cannot justify itself without tearing down christianity... but as always i invite you to show me otherwise. i believe in the One God, what you think about that isn't consequential, God is my judge and i trust Him before all.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[NoName55]

What is 'smuggery

[SIZE=-1]corruption of smugness; an excessive feeling of self-satisfaction
[/SIZE]

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

I thought leopard had changed spots or was it snake that changed skin and turned out it was still a snake?a thorn by any other name is still prickly! ah well enough messed up metaphors lest I want to loose this account too.

 

[جوري]

hola,

Jesus can look like whomever the practitioner wishes to make Him look like... in western art he is depicted as a greek guy, in asian art as an asian, in african (especially ethiopian icons) He is depicted as a black guy. generally speaking Christians can recognize Him in art NOT by his physical appearance but rather by the context clues... a halo (signifying holyness), stigmata (signifying the crucifixion) and a lamb, somewhere (signifying the covenant). all focus our prayers on specific aspects of Jesus' life, ministry and significance...

that is called anthropomorphism, it doesn't signify a covenant, it signifies idol worship to the naked eye!

God uses saints, prophets and apostles as servants or better yet like pawns on a chess board... through them (and for reasons not always known to us) He accomplishes great things... as signs and as directions for us. consider St. David, the king of Israel... God used Him to consolidate a kingdom and secure His covenant... consider then there is the example of St. Francis who literally gave up all his wealth to live among the poor, and who personally intervened in the crusades to end the bloodshed.

Sounds like a regular joe with a good heart, have seen people like that daily, no reason to turn them into dieties or an object of aodration and worship.. generally that is how human beings have to be (good), but it doesn't translate to exceptional holiness!

these are miraculous things... who could possibly deny that giving up all your wealth to help the poor isn't an immortal issue

Some doctor was on oprah a couple of months ago he gave up all his wealth to help people, and quit his job to do more for his community, no I don't classify it as a miracle!

... there will still be wealth and poverty in the future... and forever there will be the glorious accomplishment of St. Francis to demonstrate that through God we CAN disattach ourselves from worldly things and follow His commandments.

Giving up worldly pleasures for God wasn't adequately demonstrated through francis, marlena roberts was just as good, why don't we make a statue for her as well and worship her?

that is the only reason saints are saints (sanctified), because of what God has used them for...


que Dios te bendiga

It is presumptious to speak on God's behalf don't you think. I see nothing about francis in the bible.. God didn't order the sainthood and canonization of francis in the bible did he?



peace!

 

[Jayda]

yes, you are correct. the hindu is not praying to the God of abraham.
i thought we were discussing statues. i would find a great big statue of mary or jesus the same as a big ole buddha, yes.

si,

i know... that's what i was trying to say when i pointed out that as an agnostic these differences mean nothing to you... to a christian they are quite important. consider that God destroyed the amalikites despite the fact they were monotheistic. they believed in one God... they called him Baal, he wasn't the God of Abraham and so they were idolaters.

it's an important distinction for us...

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Intisar]

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

I was honestly not sure of what ''false prophet'' she was talking about; it could have been Jesus (as) or Muhammad (saw) since they believe that one of them is God and the other is not a prophet or associated with religion at all. I was just trying to get an answer out of her. I didn't delete the remark as you can see, because I want to refer to it later on (inshaa Allaah).

si, it is islamic board. but my questions about islam are not so important that i'm willing to deny my religious beliefs whenever you or any other muslim demands satisfaction in abuse of your invitation to me to post here. think about your responsibilities as a host before your responsibilities as a moderator.

but as i said before, you are the mod... if you disagree with something delete it. don't follow in NoName's footsteps by demanding that i give you (what you consider) blasphemous responses. it's extemely unfair of you guys to throw islamic theology at me to insult christianity and NOT expect me to respond truthfully. if i were a muslim my icon would reflect that, it does not.

Don't get me wrong, we don't force any religious beliefs down people's throats but we respect other beliefs. Is it so hard for other's to do the same?

Like I said before, if you feel someone has said something to hurt you, then PM it to me or any other mod of this section.

Now let's get back on topic.

Peace.