Taoist statue deemed “offensive” to Islam

[snakelegs]

I thought leopard had changed spots or was it snake that changed skin and turned out it was still a snake?a thorn by any other name is still prickly! ah well enough messed up metaphors lest I want to loose this account too.

indeed, you best be careful.
especially when speaking of snakes and leopards. ;D

 

[Jayda]

that is called anthropomorphism, it doesn't signify a covenant, it signifies idol worship to the naked eye!/quote]

if it was anthropomorphism there would be a consistent shape... that's not possible given the information i just told you. one cannot be a white, black, asian greek.

or at least it would be really tricky...

Sounds like a regular joe with a good heart, have seen people like that daily, no reason to turn them into dieties or an object of aodration and worship.. generally that is how human beings have to be (good), but it doesn't translate to exceptional holiness!

nobody has turned them into deities or worshipped them as such

Some doctor was on oprah a couple of months ago he gave up all his wealth to help people, and quit his job to do more for his community, no I don't classify it as a miracle!

Giving up worldly pleasures for God wasn't adequately demonstrated through francis, marlena roberts was just as good, why don't we make a statue for her as well and worship her?

obviously there is more to being a saint than just being a nice person... miracles have also been performed through saints... people have been healed by asking for intercession through a saint and there have been events where people have seen apparitions of saints (specifically mary). there is a supernatural edge to sainthood.

It is presumptious to speak on God's behalf don't you think. I see nothing about francis in the bible.. God didn't order the sainthood and canonization of francis in the bible did he?

i'm not speaking for God, He is more than capable of that Himself. St. Francis would not be in the bible, he was born 1000 years after the Canon was (basically) set.

the Bible is a product of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit... which also guides the Church. only protestants believe the bible is an object to be worshipped. for Catholics and the true apostolic Churches the bible is half of the equation... the other half is the Church itself... both of which are the continuation of the sacred tradition begun with Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit.

that is why we consider the pronouncements of the Church as equal to the pronouncements of the Bible.

peace!

Pax!

 

[جوري]

protestants are outside the apostolic tradition and in a state of schism... i don't follow them.

Yes they see you guys as blasphemers too!

of course, if i believed him to be a prophet i would be a muslim right? when i am so rudely and abruptly (as noname has done) demanded to acquisce to islamic theology, i respond by explaining why i don't believe what you believe.

I don't think he was rude, I believe he wanted you to reconcile the difference between your statues and theirs!

when i am flat out ASKED what i believe (as sister ameena has done) i respond truthfully what i believe.

By same token why are you so upset when we call it as we see it? 'idol worship!

either way, my intention is not to insult, it is to remain faithful to my Lord and to be truthful.

great

i've already explained the difference... if you believe it is okay for the taoists to build statues of idols (per your post) that is your business... obviously my original encouragement toward the muslims who do NOT break the first commandment wouldn't apply to you.

No I merely highlight, that catholics break the commandments as well.. I think statues belong in museums not as objects of adoration!

i was invited by a muslim poster (skillganon) to ask questions about islam because i was curious... yet i find most of my time is spent being insulted and having my religion misrepresented. i'm fairly convinced at this point islam cannot justify itself without tearing down christianity... but as always i invite you to show me otherwise. i believe in the One God, what you think about that isn't consequential, God is my judge and i trust Him before all.

que Dios te bendiga

Yup God is the judge, your curiosity I believe isn't something that anyone has hammered into you with the purpose of converting you. and No we couldn't care less what christians do or believe in fact, I am yet to see one site erected by a Muslim to tear into Jesus (p) the way christians do about prophet Mohammed PBUH, which leads me to believe that what you state here is an adequate assessment of your church and christianity in general to make up for its failures.

cheers!

 

[caroline]

Now back to the topic.

I think demanding that this statue not be erected is trite and contentious. Why would you be OFFENDED by someone else's belief? They are not demanding that you agree with them. They are not offended by the fact that there is a mosque there and isn't a mosque an obvious symbol of a religion they don't believe in? What are we going to do next -- demand all the Christian churches remove the crosses from their steeples and the synogogs remove the star of David? Are we going to demand that there be no symbols of any other belief system at the malls where we shop and demand that the catholic candles be removed from the Latin section of the grocery store?

I think nitpicking and pettiness creates a bad example of whatever religion you represent. And besides that, it's just silly and a waste of time when we could be working to create peace and understanding in a world that is rife with atrocities.

 

[جوري]

obviously there is more to being a saint than just being a nice person... miracles have also been performed through saints... people have been healed by asking for intercession through a saint and there have been events where people have seen apparitions of saints (specifically mary). there is a supernatural edge to sainthood.

There is no supernatural edge save for superstitious folks who'd rather ignore the laws of nature and true faith in favor of magic and chance!

i'm not speaking for God, He is more than capable of that Himself. St. Francis would not be in the bible, he was born 1000 years after the Canon was (basically) set.

I know and thank you for cementing the fact that you shouldn't in fact speak for God, since he is capable of doing so in his books, he'd have set a clear path.. my special creations need to be canonized, but he didn't!

the Bible is a product of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit... which also guides the Church. only protestants believe the bible is an object to be worshipped. for Catholics and the true apostolic Churches the bible is half of the equation... the other half is the Church itself... both of which are the continuation of the sacred tradition begun with Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit.

That is a load of rubbish, since Jesus has asked for none of it, again you assume for him and almost in same breath say he can speak for himself, why is that? just a note I am not sure who God is in thei formula, if we are still to go by the laws of monotheism.. who is Jesus, who is the holy spirit in the scheme of all of this? Why does an all mighty being need all these troops?

that is why we consider the pronouncements of the Church as equal to the pronouncements of the Bible.

Pax!

The rest of the world doesn't, including other christian denominations..


cheers

 

[Jayda]

I was honestly not sure of what ''false prophet'' she was talking about; it could have been Jesus (as) or Muhammad (as) since they believe that one of them is God and the other is not a prophet or associated with religion at all. I was just trying to get an answer out of her. I didn't delete the remark as you can see, because I want to refer to it later on (inshaa Allaah).

delete it if it offends you, i'd request you do the same with noname's remark... but as you say it is an islamic forum so i should expect to take the hits muslims so graceously bestow upon me.

Don't get me wrong, we don't force any religious beliefs down people's throats but we respect other beliefs. Is it so hard for other's to do the same?

Like I said before, if you feel someone has said something to hurt you, then PM it to me or any other mod of this section.

Now let's get back on topic.

Peace.

of course you don't force religious beliefs on me... i live about 8000 miles away in a rather fairy tale like life where i'm lonely most of the time because my husband is always away. you could no sooner force me to do something than cows would rain from the sky (which might be interesting)

BUT! you can insult me and you can put me in a position where i am asked to attest to my faith... that's precisely what noname and then you, sister ameena, did. i'm not going to say 'oh yes we are idol worshippers' and 'oh yes mohamed is a prophet' to please you and i'm not going to pretend im out of line for speaking the truth.

i appreciate you are doing the best you can as a mod, trainee mod, no less, but if you stand back and evaluate this thread i think you can make life easy on yourself by doing a few things... 1. delete the offending remarks from noname (if you are feeling merciful) and from myself (if you really want to end continued muslim offense) 2. evaluate whether this off topic conversation is really a bad thing... we are all speaking rather frankly but it's stimulating conversation don't you think? and it is on topic... we are talking about idols and whether i am justified in condemning toaism. 3. put a little faith in us... despite the fact noname hates me and apparentely wants me banned, there really aren't any agendas here... we're perfectly capable of civilized conversation and... frankly... this is pretty civilized for an internet forum.

 

[snakelegs]

si,

i know... that's what i was trying to say when i pointed out that as an agnostic these differences mean nothing to you... to a christian they are quite important. consider that God destroyed the amalikites despite the fact they were monotheistic. they believed in one God... they called him Baal, he wasn't the God of Abraham and so they were idolaters.

it's an important distinction for us...

que Dios te bendiga

ok - point taken. still, to me the statues are the same.

 

[Jayda]

There is no supernatural edge save for superstitious folks who'd rather ignore the laws of nature and true faith in favor of magic and chance!

no, we are talking about documented and investigated miracles... 'there is more in heaven and earth horatio' and all that... this is not the same as the superstition of local medieval peasants.

I know and thank you for cementing the fact that you shouldn't in fact speak for God, since he is capable of doing so in his books, he'd have set a clear path.. my special creations need to be canonized, but he didn't!

i'm confused about what you mean concerning that last sentence... could you clarify please?

That is a load of rubbish, since Jesus has asked for none of it, again you assume for him and almost in same breath say he can speak for himself, why is that? just a note I am not sure who God is in thei formula, if we are still to go by the laws of monotheism.. who is Jesus, who is the holy spirit in the scheme of all of this? Why does an all mighty being need all these troops?

well no, it's not rubbish it's the apostolic tradition started by Jesus... Jesus didn't write the bible, i certainly hope you don't believe that... it would be theologically and historically unsound. the bible in it's present form was pretty much finished by a 5th century roman named Jerome... a Church doctor who compiled the writings of other Church doctors writing under the Spirit.

the Holy Spirit, in answer to your question, is the Spirit of God... Jesus promised to send Him to the Church and indeed did so on Pentecost.

The rest of the world doesn't, including other christian denominations..

si. it is a most unfortunate heresy to deny the Church and endangers their salvation from Sin.

 

[Jayda]

ok - point taken. still, to me the statues are the same.

si i know...

now you know what i think and why, and i know what you think and why... so that's better than we started off

 

[Intisar]

I think this thread has reached it's peak.

Closed (upon request also).

 

[Jayda]

if that is your decision...