Teach me the old English please

[Woodrow]

This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks for clarifying things up and thanks for making it short. So they are not the same. I always thought that KJ bible was written in the oldest English:

For many centuries the common (Lay) Christian had no access to the bible that was reserved for the clergy only and the bibles were usually in either Latin or Greek. The Roman Catholic Church discouraged the reading of any English language bibles until the 1940s. As a Roman Catholic boy I had to learn Latin to read the Bible (Latin Vulgate)

The Earliest known Anglo-Saxon(Old English) Bible is the Wycliffe Bible written in 1380. Few people today know sufficient Anglo-Saxon English to read it. Here is a page from it and before you ask, I can not read it, just a few words.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The Earliest known Anglo-Saxon Bible is the Wycliffe Bible written in 1380. Few people today know sufficient Anglo-Saxon English to read it. Here is a page from it and before you ask, I can not read it, just a few words.

I'm sorry to be pedantic, and I'm also sorry for correcting Woodrow here when he's clearly trying to help:

That is not Anglo-Saxon, but Middle English, the language of Chaucer. It is much closer to modern English than Anglo-Saxon is. The paragraph beginning with the large letter 'I' is the start of John's Gospel. Look carefully and, despite the unusual spelling, you should be able to make out "In the beginning was the word..."

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Greetings,


I'm sorry to be pedantic, and I'm also sorry for correcting Woodrow here when he's clearly trying to help:

That is not Anglo-Saxon, but Middle English, the language of Chaucer. It is much closer to modern English than Anglo-Saxon is. The paragraph beginning with the large letter 'I' is the start of John's Gospel. Look carefully and, despite the unusual spelling, you should be able to make out "In the beginning was the word..."

Peace

I stand corrected. You are right. I should have realized by the Date 1380 it was too recent to be Anglo-Saxon or old English.

 

[Danah]

Thank you two for your clarification and explanation. I downloaded the e-book you uncle Woodrow recommended. Also, I found a good application for ipod touch that have most of Shakespeare's work which is good to read anywhere since I always have it with me. I will go through them whenever I am free.

 

[Woodrow]

Thank you two for your clarification and explanation. I downloaded the e-book you uncle Woodrow recommended. Also, I found a good application for ipod touch that have most of Shakespeare's work which is good to read anywhere since I always have it with me. I will go through them whenever I am free.

Your Welcome Ukhti,

Please keep in mind that since you do read Arabic you can read the Real Qur'an no translation are the Qur'an, they can only approximate it, but never contain the real meaning.

Use the translations to get an understanding over why many non-Arabic readers misunderstand the true Qur'an

 

[Danah]

Your Welcome Ukhti,

Please keep in mind that since you do read Arabic you can read the Real Qur'an no translation are the Qur'an, they can only approximate it, but never contain the real meaning.

Use the translations to get an understanding over why many non-Arabic readers misunderstand the true Qur'an

100% True!

I only need to read the translations when I am talking to non-Arab people about the Quran, so I gotta have a rigid English to fulfill my need.

 

[~*Fatima*~]

Just wondering but is it? like Hibaro? or something?

 

[Woodrow]

Just wondering but is it? like Hibaro? or something?

I assume you are speaking about the older English languages. Hibaro (more properly Jibaro refers to the Jivaro, the original people of Puerto Rico)

English is a mixture of languages and continues to adapt words from other languages. As a result it has changed considerably over the years, but it is mostly influenced by Latin and the Early Germanic (Teutonic) languages.

 

[~*Fatima*~]

Oh~ Jazakallah for the Info. Sorry its going off topic but could you tell me more of Puerto Rico People?

 

[Rasema]

I really never liked that the Qur'an is in the old English because the Bible is.:embarrass

Its culture.

 

[Woodrow]

I really never liked that the Qur'an is in the old English because the Bible is.:embarrass

Its culture.

I suspect that Ali and Pickthal used Elizabethian English in their translations because it would been seen as being more dignified then the common or vox Populi English used at their era (Late 19th early 20th century), even though it had been many centuries since Elizabethian English had been in daily use.

 

[Woodrow]

Oh~ Jazakallah for the Info. Sorry its going off topic but could you tell me more of Puerto Rico People?

Very short history of Puerto Rico, it is a Caribbean Island, It was one of the first lands conquered by the Spanish in the early 1500's and was part of what Spain called Hispanola. Today they are a USA Commonwealth with virtually full rights of Statehood. However, the people are very independent and have consistently voted against Statehood. The people did adopt the Spanish language and Catholicism from the Spanish conquistadors but did not inter marry much with the Spanish and are predominantly Native American of Caribbean tribal ancestry. Most Puerto Ricans are fluent in American English and Castillian Spanish.

 

[~*Fatima*~]

I see~ JazakAllah~ Mashallah Bro~ You know a lot. I wish I did too. your like encyclopedia. :}

 

[Woodrow]

I see~ JazakAllah~ Mashallah Bro~ You know a lot. I wish I did too. your like encyclopedia. :}

At my age I should know something or else I wasted nearly 70 years taking up space. To be honest most people my age know considerably more than I do.

 

[Khaldun]

Danah I would not advice you to read the bible. Everything you would need to know is in the Qur'aan.

Why waste your time in a book which states that Prophet Luut got drunk and fornicated with his own daughters? Or a book which says the Prophet Haruun worshipped the cow alongwith the people of Isra'eel [i.e committed shirk]?. A book which says Iblees was an Fallen Angel where as we know there are no such things?

Umar copied part of the Torah in Arabic, brought it to the Prophet , and began to read it to him. As he read, the Prophet’s face changed color. One of the men of the Ansaar said, "Woe to you Ibn Al-Khattaab! Can you not see the face of the Messenger of Allaah?’ Thereupon, the Prophet , said, ‘Do not ask the People of the Book about anything for they will not guide you when they have gone astray. (If you listen to them) You will either disbelieve in what is right or believe in what is false. By Allaah, if Moses had been alive today, he would have been obliged to follow me.’

 

[Danah]

Danah I would not advice you to read the bible. Everything you would need to know is in the Qur'aan.

Why waste your time in a book which states that Prophet Luut got drunk and fornicated with his own daughters? Or a book which says the Prophet Haruun worshipped the cow alongwith the people of Isra'eel [i.e committed shirk]?. A book which says Iblees was an Fallen Angel where as we know there are no such things?

Umar copied part of the Torah in Arabic, brought it to the Prophet , and began to read it to him. As he read, the Prophet’s face changed color. One of the men of the Ansaar said, "Woe to you Ibn Al-Khattaab! Can you not see the face of the Messenger of Allaah?’ Thereupon, the Prophet , said, ‘Do not ask the People of the Book about anything for they will not guide you when they have gone astray. (If you listen to them) You will either disbelieve in what is right or believe in what is false. By Allaah, if Moses had been alive today, he would have been obliged to follow me.’

JazakAllah Kahir brother for your concern. I know that already. I need to know the English that the Quran translated to "which is not the modern daily one we talk these days" so that will help me in terms of Dawah and such.
Alhumdulilah I can read the Quran in Arabic, but since English is not my first language, so I kinda need to improve it to understand the old terms when I am explaining to someone the Quran versus.

I really appreciate your advice and post.

 

[Woodrow]

JazakAllah Kahir brother for your concern. I know that already. I need to know the English that the Quran translated to "which is not the modern daily one we talk these days" so that will help me in terms of Dawah and such.
Alhumdulilah I can read the Quran in Arabic, but since English is not my first language, so I kinda need to improve it to understand the old terms when I am explaining to someone the Quran versus.

I really appreciate your advice and post.

Before you get too wrapped up in old English. Remember that any translations are not the Qur'an. If you are going to use an English translation for any purpose use one in Modern English. The ones in old English can be very questionable as some were written in that manner by Non_Muslims for the purpose of misleading people.

Besides there never was a translation from Arabic to Old English at the time English speaking people actually spoke old English.The only Qur'an translations I know of for which Elizabethan English is used are the ones by Ali and Pickthal.

But, for Da'wah to English speaking people any translation in modern English is the better choice.

 

[Danah]

Before you get too wrapped up in old English. Remember that any translations are not the Qur'an. If you are going to use an English translation for any purpose use one in Modern English. The ones in old English can be very questionable as some were written in that manner by Non_Muslims for the purpose of misleading people.

Besides there never was a translation from Arabic to Old English at the time English speaking people actually spoke old English.The only Qur'an translations I know of for which Elizabethan English is used are the ones by Ali and Pickthal.

Yeah true, they can do anything to mislead people.
The only two copies I have in home are Yusuf Ali, and a copy printed in King Fahad holy Quran printing Complex in Macca which I don't think that anyone can question them.

But, for Da'wah to English speaking people any translation in modern English is the better choice.

I am not aware of any modern English Translations of Quran. Can you tell me of any Uncle jazakAllah khair?

 

[Hugo]

Danah I would not advice you to read the bible. Everything you would need to know is in the Qur'aan.

Why waste your time in a book which states that Prophet Luut got drunk and fornicated with his own daughters? Or a book which says the Prophet Haruun worshipped the cow alongwith the people of Isra'eel [i.e committed shirk]?. A book which says Iblees was an Fallen Angel where as we know there are no such things?

Umar copied part of the Torah in Arabic, brought it to the Prophet , and began to read it to him. As he read, the Prophet’s face changed color. One of the men of the Ansaar said, "Woe to you Ibn Al-Khattaab! Can you not see the face of the Messenger of Allaah?’ Thereupon, the Prophet , said, ‘Do not ask the People of the Book about anything for they will not guide you when they have gone astray. (If you listen to them) You will either disbelieve in what is right or believe in what is false. By Allaah, if Moses had been alive today, he would have been obliged to follow me.’

What you say of the Bible is mostly true except Aaron did not worship a cow but he made an image because the people forced him into it. However, you did not state with any clarity which hadith this was so may I remind you of what the Qu'ran says as that is a first authority and I think they imply that Prophet Mohammed accepted the existing holy books

Q:4:163 "We have sent thee inspiration, as we sent it to Noah and the messenger's after him: we sent Inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon and to David we gave the Psalms.

Q:10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed Unto thee, then ask those Who have been reading the Book before thee.

In passing I might add that if you ignore the Bible you ignore the 10 commandments, the sermon on the mount, Psalm 23 and so much more which are unquestionably good and on which Muslims and Christians would find no disagreement.

 

[Hugo]

Yeah true, they can do anything to mislead people.
The only two copies I have in home are Yusuf Ali, and a copy printed in King Fahad holy Quran printing Complex in Macca which I don't think that anyone can question them.

I am not aware of any modern English Translations of Quran. Can you tell me of any Uncle jazakAllah khair?

I think Woodrow's comments that some translators did it to mislead is utterly preposterous. In some cases the translators converted to Islam after doing the work so his claim is groundless.

I think you will also find if you search for comments by Uthmann in this board that there are questions over Yusuf Ali and particularly his footnotes and even the Fahad translation has some questionably insertions - for example, if my memory serves me it adds in brackets in one place [guns and tanks] and that cannot possibly help in understanding.

If it is about study then I found Dawood very good and if you use one of the online Qu'ran search sites you can quickly compare readings and check on Arabic words etc try http://www.searchtruth.com/. You could contact Gossomer Skye as I am sure she will have further insights and information on this.

What you need to understand is that whether you are reading it in English or Arabic work is requited to understand meaning. Remember the Arabic words used have meanings that are 6th century flavoured and to properly understand them you need a suitable lexicon not a modern Arabic dictionary.