Teach me the old English please

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Yeah true, they can do anything to mislead people.
The only two copies I have in home are Yusuf Ali, and a copy printed in King Fahad holy Quran printing Complex in Macca which I don't think that anyone can question them.



I am not aware of any modern English Translations of Quran. Can you tell me of any Uncle jazakAllah khair?

A very good one is:



Saudi-endorsed Translations

The Noble Qur'an in the English Language. By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

Now the most widely disseminated Qur'an in most Islamic bookstores and Sunni mosques throughout the English-speaking world, this new translation[41] is meant to replace the Yusuf 'Ali edition and comes with a seal of approval from both the University of Medina and the Saudi Dar al-Ifta.[42]

You can read it on line here:

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/neindex.htm
 
I think Woodrow's comments that some translators did it to mislead is utterly preposterous. In some cases the translators converted to Islam after doing the work so his claim is groundless.



Early Translations

The first translations to English were not undertaken by Muslims but by Christians who sought to debunk Islam and aid in the conversion of Muslims to Christianity. Alexander Ross, chaplain to Charles I (r. 1625-49) and the first to embark on the translation process, subtitled his 1649 work as "newly Englished for the satisfaction for all that desire to look into the Turkish vanities."[14] Interestingly, Ross did not speak Arabic and relied on secondarily translating from the French, a language in which he was not well-schooled. He, therefore, based his interpretation on a problematic rendition by Andrew Du Ryer. According to George Sale (1697-1736), "[Du Ryer's] performance … is far from being a just translation; there being mistakes in every page, besides frequent transpositions, omissions and additions, faults."[15]

Most eighteenth and nineteenth century translations were undertaken by authors without strong background in Islam. As they were goaded by the urge to answer Christian polemic, their forgettable works do not reflect any intellectual depth; as such, copies are extremely rare. Among the best known, albeit pejorative, English-language analyses of Islam during this time were those by Christian authors such as George Sale, John Rodwell (1808-1900), Edward Palmer (1840-1882), and Sir William Muir (1819-1905).[16] Of these, Sale was probably the most important because he wrote a detailed critique about earlier translations.[17] His work became the standard reference for all English readers until almost the end of the nineteenth century.[18] However, his work was limited by his lack of access to public libraries forcing him to rely only upon material in his personal collection.[19] While Sale gave the impression that he based his translation on the Arabic text, others have suggested that he relied on an earlier Latin translation.[20] Sale did not insert verse numbers into his work, nor did he insert footnotes or other explanations. The result, therefore, is a work that is extremely difficult to comprehend.

SOURCE:http://www.meforum.org/717/assessing-english-translations-of-the-quran
 
Before you get too wrapped up in old English. Remember that any translations are not the Qur'an. If you are going to use an English translation for any purpose use one in Modern English. The ones in old English can be very questionable as some were written in that manner by Non_Muslims for the purpose of misleading people.

Besides there never was a translation from Arabic to Old English at the time English speaking people actually spoke old English.The only Qur'an translations I know of for which Elizabethan English is used are the ones by Ali and Pickthal.

But, for Da'wah to English speaking people any translation in modern English is the better choice.

This is not quite correct as there are English translations going back to the 17 century. The important thing to rememberer is that scholarship has moved on since then and now there are a number of excellent lexicons in both Arabic and English so modern translations should be much more accurate
 
don't know if its the same thing have you tried watching that romeo and juliet movie after watching it a hundred times i was able to talk in old English lol my Engish teacher was absolutely awsum in talking in old English
 
:sl:

I realise I have side tracked in this thread. But to make things clear we do not reject the bible nor the torah, however since they have been altered through time and state things that are regarded as blasphemus in Islaam we reject the corrupt portions of it.

In short whatever is in accordance with the Qur'aan we accept and whatever is against the Qur'aan we reject. Since the Qur'aan is the last of the heavenly books and is unaltered we judge by it.
 
Hah, my favourite Bible vesion (KJV) is in middle English (old English is basically French and German in some sort of strange union), as is my Quran copy.

Thee- You/r
mammon- money
talents- money of the time
unto- to

That's all I can think of right now. It shouldn't be very hard to any native English speaker.
 
don't know if its the same thing have you tried watching that romeo and juliet movie after watching it a hundred times i was able to talk in old English lol my Engish teacher was absolutely awsum in talking in old English

In all likelihood the people in those days never said thee or thou. While that was written with the letter thorn, thorn was pronounced as both th and Y by the 1600 it was pronounced only as y and eventually was replaced by the Y so the actual pronunciation would have not been thee and thou, but yee and you. Many other things happen in the pronunciation as we do not know precisely how some of the Archaic letters were pronounced. But in all likelihood the middle age English was pronounced much like todays words except with a Scottish Accent. they were not pronounced as we try to pronounce them based on the old alphabet. If you find any Middle English texts and use the modern alphabet instead of the archaic one, the pronunciations will be found to be like today's English.
 
Early Translations
The first translations to English were not undertaken by Muslims but by Christians who sought to debunk Islam and aid in the conversion of Muslims to Christianity. Alexander Ross, chaplain to Charles I (r. 1625-49) and the first to embark on the translation process, subtitled his 1649 work as "newly Englished for the satisfaction for all that desire to look into the Turkish vanities."[14] Interestingly, Ross did not speak Arabic and relied on secondarily translating from the French, a language in which he was not well-schooled. He, therefore, based his interpretation on a problematic rendition by Andrew Du Ryer. According to George Sale (1697-1736), "[Du Ryer's] performance … is far from being a just translation; there being mistakes in every page, besides frequent transpositions, omissions and additions, faults."[15]....

The article you cited is worthy of a good read but to my mind you have been very selective in choosing passages from it and one wonders if you are forcing the point to the place where it deliberately misleads - I will select just a few sections to show this but I urge anyone who wants to get a fuller picture to read the whole article.

By the ninth century, this began to change. Muslim jurists, increasingly opposed to reliance upon Jewish lore, created new sayings from the Prophet and his companions that contradicted the original allowances. In one of these apocryphal traditions, Muhammad's face changes color when he sees his follower Umar reading the Torah. Muhammad declares that had Moses been their contemporary, he, too, would have followed the Muslim prophet. An alternate version claims that the Prophet asked Umar, "Do you wish to rush to perdition as did the Jews and Christians? I have brought you white and clean hadiths."Despite the unreliability of this hadith, it has evolved into a position that any Muslim who questions it could be accused of heresy.
The 1955 translation of Arthur Arberry (1905-69) was the first English translation by a bona fide scholar of Arabic and Islam. A Cambridge University graduate, he spent several years in the Middle East perfecting his Arabic and Persian language skills.... His title, The Koran Interpreted, acknowledged the orthodox Muslim view that the Qu'ran cannot be translated, but only interpreted. He rendered the Qur'an into understandable English and separated text from tradition. The translation is without prejudice and is probably the best around.​
Among those Qur'an translations which found Saudi favor and, therefore, wide distribution, was the Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali (1872-1952) rendition that, from its first appearance in 1934 until very recently, was the most popular English version among Muslims. While not an Islamic scholar in any formal sense, Yusuf 'Ali, an Indian civil servant, had studied classics at Cambridge University, ...... He sought to convey the music and richness of the Arabic with poetic English versification. While his rendering of the text is not bad, there are serious problems in his copious footnotes; in many cases, he reproduces the exegetical material from medieval texts without making any effort at contextualization. Writing at a time both of growing Arab animosity toward Zionism and in a milieu that condoned anti-Semitism, Yusuf 'Ali constructed his oeuvre as a polemic against Jews.
Now the most widely disseminated Qur'an in most Islamic bookstores and Sunni mosques throughout the English-speaking world, this new translation by al-Hilali and Khan and is meant to replace the Yusuf 'Ali edition and comes with a seal of approval from both the University of Medina and the Saudi Dar al-Ifta. Whereas most other translators have tried to render the Qur'an applicable to a modern readership, this Saudi-financed venture tries to impose the commentaries of Tabari (d. 923 C.E.), Qurtubi (d. 1273 C.E.), and Ibn Kathir (d. 1372 C.E.), medievalists who knew nothing of modern concepts of pluralism. The numerous interpolations make this translation particularly problematic, ...

From the beginning, the Hilali and Muhsin Khan translation reads more like a supremacist Muslim, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian polemic than a rendition of the Islamic scripture. In the first sura, for example, verses which are universally accepted as, "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored, not of those who have incurred Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray" become, "Guide us to the Straight Way, the way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who have earned Your anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)."What is particularly egregious about this interpolation is that it is followed by an extremely long footnote to justify its hate based on traditions from medieval texts.

Contemporary political disputes also pollute the translation, marring what should be a reflection of timeless religion. Whereas the Qur'an reports Moses's address to the Israelites as "O my people! Enter the Holy Land that God has assigned unto you,"this Saudi version twists the verse with modern politics, writing, "O my people! Enter the holy land (Palestine)."

The appendix includes a polemical comparison of Jesus and Muhammad, reporting that the former had no claim to divinity. From a Muslim perspective, what Jesus did or did not do should be drawn from the Qur'anic text, not an appendix, ..... this Saudi-sponsored effort, undertaken before 9-11, is a serious liability for American Muslims in particular, it still remains present in Sunni mosques, probably because of its free distribution by the Saudi government.
 
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The article you cited is worthy of a good read but to my mind you have been very selective in choosing passages from it and one wonders if you are forcing the point to the place where it deliberately misleads - I will select just a few sections to show this but I urge anyone who wants to get a fuller picture to read the whole article.

True, I was deliberatly selective. My original post was in reference to the early translations in Old English. That is the era the paragraph refers to. I never did mention anyplace that any of the modern translations were deliberatly erroneous.
 
True, I was deliberatly selective. My original post was in reference to the early translations in Old English. That is the era the paragraph refers to. I never did mention anyplace that any of the modern translations were deliberatly erroneous.

Fair enough but what you must now I think agree from the same article that some modern translations are also seriously flawed notably those by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali and that of al-Hilali and Khan.

Translation is a difficult business because you are dealing not with modern Arabic but and Arabic as it would have been understood in the 6th century. To do this one needs a special form of dictionary called a lexicon which takes each word and explains its meaning by citing examples of its use as found not just in the Qu'ran but elsewhere in any document that is of the same period. The Qu'ran also contains many derived words for example from Syriac and so on so to be able to absorb all this requires many many years of painstaking study of language and one does not have to be a Muslim to do that but just an honest and hard working scholar.

There is nothing special about the words used in the Qu'ran because if they were is some way special no one at the time would have been able to understand what was being said. Then Qu'ran in Arabic contains 2,822 different words although 582 words cover 80% of what is said. Since English has over a million different words there is no reason at all why a diligent, skilful and unbiased scholar or group of scholars should not make a translation that is a faithful as is possible to the original Arabic assisted by the various lexicons.
 
Fair enough but what you must now I think agree from the same article that some modern translations are also seriously flawed notably those by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali and that of al-Hilali and Khan.

Translation is a difficult business because you are dealing not with modern Arabic but and Arabic as it would have been understood in the 6th century. To do this one needs a special form of dictionary called a lexicon which takes each word and explains its meaning by citing examples of its use as found not just in the Qu'ran but elsewhere in any document that is of the same period. The Qu'ran also contains many derived words for example from Syriac and so on so to be able to absorb all this requires many many years of painstaking study of language and one does not have to be a Muslim to do that but just an honest and hard working scholar.

There is nothing special about the words used in the Qu'ran because if they were is some way special no one at the time would have been able to understand what was being said. Then Qu'ran in Arabic contains 2,822 different words although 582 words cover 80% of what is said. Since English has over a million different words there is no reason at all why a diligent, skilful and unbiased scholar or group of scholars should not make a translation that is a faithful as is possible to the original Arabic assisted by the various lexicons.

I can not find anything there to take issue with except this:
There is nothing special about the words used in the Qu'ran

But that is not debatable, just my opinion.

But regarding the last paragraph, the major difficulty is many Arabic words have no English counter part, and that makes a word for word translation impossible.
 
I can not find anything there to take issue with except this:

But that is not debatable, just my opinion.

But regarding the last paragraph, the major difficulty is many Arabic words have no English counter part, and that makes a word for word translation impossible.

If by this you mean there are words in the Qu'ran that cannot be understood by anyone then we agree, there a few of those. If you think beyond that the the words are special I would be interested to know what you might mean, not as a debate but as information.

Of course I agree that word for word translation is not always possible or even desirable because languages often differ in constructions. But we still have the fact that one has to put your self into 6th century Arabic to get a 'true' reading and so logically I would say that a sound English translation is by far to be preferred if one wants understanding as it is obvious that the vast majority cannot hope to learn 6th century Arabic. I don't know where you live but if you go to the Middle East one can hardly find two Arabs who speak the same dialect - I exaggerate of course but you get my meaning.

Just as a little aside, I once heard Jewish scholars talking about the KJV and they though that the 23 Psalm was if anything better in English than in Hebrew.

Peace and Blessings
 

If by this you mean there are words in the Qu'ran that cannot be understood by anyone then we agree, there a few of those. If you think beyond that the the words are special I would be interested to know what you might mean, not as a debate but as information.



I see each word as being special as each came from Allaah(swt). But, in addition. Each word is unique for the Tajweed pronunciation.
 
I see each word as being special as each came from Allaah(swt). But, in addition. Each word is unique for the Tajweed pronunciation.

We may be talking about different things here - if you wish to learn to pronounce the words of the Qu'ran that is fine but I was talking about what words mean. Now of course the last words say my father said to me are precious but they are nevertheless just ordinary words, with ordinary everyday meanings and the same goes for the Qu'ran or any other book - this was my point.

What we need from scripture is to hear what God is saying not invest the thing with some mystical or magic properties because as a Christian for example we say God's word is living and alive, written not in a book but on our hearts and minds - would you not agree with that for the Qu'ran?
 
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We may be talking about different things here - if you wish to learn to pronounce the words of the Qu'ran that is fine but I was talking about what words mean. Now of course the last words say my father said to me are precious but they are nevertheless just ordinary words, with ordinary everyday meanings and the same goes for the Qu'ran or any other book - this was my point.

What we need from scripture is to hear what God is saying not invest the thing with some mystical or magic properties because as a Christian for example we say God's word is living and alive, written not in a book but on our hearts and minds - would you not agree with that for the Qu'ran?

I like your last paragraph very much. Especially :"God's word is living and alive, written not in a book but on our hearts and minds" to me that emphasizes the reason for the desire of being Hafiz. (Memorizing the entire Qur'an)

Of course memorizing it is just part, it is essential to live the words also.
 
:sl:

What makes the Qur'aan a linguistic master piece? And what was the reason why the non muslims of old said it was magic?

It is not only about the syntax or the carefully selected words [diction] but rather the Qur'aan as a whole, and unfortunatly this is what will lost in translation. For an example one verse from the Qur'aan might put across a very vivid imagery for an arabic reader whereas the english translation is very dull. This is why a non arab just looks at the Qur'aan as any other book yet does not realise that its language can not be copied nor repeated.

An example of where the Arabic eloquence is lost in translation is verse 19:4. In it, the Prophet Zakariyyah is praying to Allah to bless him with a child, and describes his old age:

قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي وَهَنَ الْعَظْمُ مِنِّي وَاشْتَعَلَ الرَّأْسُ شَيْبًا
He prayed: "O my Lord! Feeble have become my bones, and my head glistens with grey hair.

The Arabic of the last portion of the verse is: 'ishtha'ala ar-ra'su shayba'. This phrase, despite its conciseness (only three words), is indicative of the eloquence of the Qur'aan, and az-Zamakhsharee is able to extract no less than five examples of the usage of various types of Arabic eloquence (some of which cannot even be explained in English!) For an example, the primary meaning of the verb 'ishtha'ala' which is used in the verse is to express the sparks that are emitted by a fire. Therefore, Zakariyyah is comparing the whiteness of his hair to the sparks that emit from a fire, an example of one type of metaphor.

Also, the verse translates as '...(my) head sparks..', thus attributing the sparking effect, not to the hair where it occurs, but to the place and origin of that hair (the head), thus accentuating the severity of his old age. This phrase also gives the impression that the sparks are occuring from many places, thus indicating that, not only is his hairs white, but these white streaks are to be found all over his head. In essence, the phrase of only three words conveys the image of Zakariyyah's old age in such graphic detail that the English equivalent would require a few paragraphs of text! Of course, all such eloquence is completely lost in translation.​
[Exctract from Yasir Qadhi's An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'aan]
 
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:sl:What makes the Qur'aan a linguistic master piece? And what was the reason why the non muslims of old said it was magic?

It is not only about the syntax or the carefully selected words [diction] but rather the Qur'aan as a whole, and unfortunatly this is what will lost in translation. For an example one verse from the Qur'aan might put across a very vivid imagery for an arabic reader whereas the english translation is very dull. This is why a non arab just looks at the Qur'aan as any other book yet does not realise that its language can not be copied nor repeated.

An example of where the Arabic eloquence is lost in translation is verse 19:4. In it, the Prophet Zakariyyah is praying to Allah to bless him with a child, and describes his old age:

قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي وَهَنَ الْعَظْمُ مِنِّي وَاشْتَعَلَ الرَّأْسُ شَيْبًا
He prayed: "O my Lord! Feeble have become my bones, and my head glistens with grey hair.

The Arabic of the last portion of the verse is: 'ishtha'ala ar-ra'su shayba'. This phrase, despite its conciseness (only three words), is indicative of the eloquence of the Qur'aan, and az-Zamakhsharee is able to extract no less than five examples of the usage of various types of Arabic eloquence (some of which cannot even be explained in English!) For an example, the primary meaning of the verb 'ishtha'ala' which is used in the verse is to express the sparks that are emitted by a fire. Therefore, Zakariyyah is comparing the whiteness of his hair to the sparks that emit from a fire, an example of one type of metaphor.

Also, the verse translates as '...(my) head sparks..', thus attributing the sparking effect, not to the hair where it occurs, but to the place and origin of that hair (the head), thus accentuating the severity of his old age. This phrase also gives the impression that the sparks are occuring from many places, thus indicating that, not only is his hairs white, but these white streaks are to be found all over his head. In essence, the phrase of only three words conveys the image of Zakariyyah's old age in such graphic detail that the English equivalent would require a few paragraphs of text! Of course, all such eloquence is completely lost in translation.​
[Exctract from Yasir Qadhi's An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'aan]

No one disputes what you say but what you are missing is that it took an expert to uncover the meaning here and he did that by knowing what the words would meant 14 centuries ago. How did he know that these words convey all that you say - he would not have got it by just looking at the Qu'ran he would have looked at many examples of its use from the time found in lexicons etc.

You cannot simply assume that any would see this fuller meaning simply because it might be in the Arabic. That is why we have hundreds of commentaries and here you in effect used one of them; you did not write this yourself did you.

So when I study the Qu'ran I do it in English and use commentaries to see what a verse might mean - just like you and every scholar who ever lived no matter what Qu'ran they use will do the same. It is just if I may say so ridiculous to ask everyone to learn 6th century Arabic. I have already shown that English has enough words to provide as good a translation as is possible and that coupled with a good commentary is in my view 99% adequate.

Any writing can be hard to understand - "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" wrote Shakespeare so what does he mean? or Socrates wrote "Is what is holy holy because the gods approve it, or do they approve it because it is holy. The words here are easy but you try to explain what they mean if you can?

Every one who reads ancient literature has difficulty scholar or not. I have for Bible study a Greek and Hebrew lexicon and use Lanes lexicon for Qu'ranic Arabic. The point perhaps is that God wants us to spend effort on understanding and applying scripture and he is not going to insist we all learn Arabic, Greek and Hebrew to do it - can you see my point?
 
:sl:

What you have to keep in mind is that arabic is not like latin or other ancient langauges. It is very much alive and the arabic that was spoken by the Messenger and his companions is preserved until this day. And it does not need a rosetta stone etc. We speak it every day, in the shops at school etc.

What is ridiculus is for you to think that by not learning 6th century arabic you will be able to understand the Qur'aan in English. It is like studying Shakespear in Chinese and claim to understand it fully.

I am sorry for hijacking sister Danah's thread, I will end it here. But please feel free to pm me or make another thread.
 
:sl:

What you have to keep in mind is that arabic is not like latin or other ancient langauges. It is very much alive and the arabic that was spoken by the Messenger and his companions is preserved until this day. And it does not need a rosetta stone etc. We speak it every day, in the shops at school etc.

What is ridiculus is for you to think that by not learning 6th century arabic you will be able to understand the Qur'aan in English. It is like studying Shakespear in Chinese and claim to understand it fully.

I am sorry for hijacking sister Danah's thread, I will end it here. But please feel free to pm me or make another thread.

There is no need to pm anyone, you have added valuable comment and that is enough.

No one speaks 6th century Arabic everyday and there are hundreds of dialects. My point was that to understand the Qu'ran in Arabic or English or any language you care to name you MUST appreciate that it is 6th Century Arabic and so the meanings must be ones that would be understood then not now.

There is no logical reason that I should not understand fully what the Qu'ran is saying just because I do it in English aided by commentaries etc in much the same way I can understand any book from any time - this must be true?
 
:sl:

I just thought we respect forum rules and respect the sisters thread she made, but ok.

That is where you are wrong I am afraid. A huge amount of people speak the fus-ha arabic (6th century arabic) on a daly basis and I am one of them.

The arabic the Prophet spoke and the arabic I speak is one and the same, word by word. That is what I am trying to put across.

No it must not be true, because to understand a thing on face value and understanding it in depth are two different things. And since you stated that you by studying Qur'aan through the english language would make you understand it 99% I beg to differ.

For an example studying the ancient writings on pyramids will need a person to be familiarsed with the language that was spoken at that time, you do not rely upon translations rather if you are serious then you learn the language of the ancient egyptians, otherwise you will be lost in translation to say the least.
 

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