Thank you for your time :)

[MustafaMc]

That is you would never get bumped from a Christian forum for posting the way you do especially by me.

No, I got your point and that may or may not be the case. Do you know of a Christian forum where comparative religion is openly discussed like here? If so, I may visit it myself. Personally, I don't go out looking to talk to people about Islam, unless I have an opportunity and I sense an opening. I have traveled by air and spent the entire flight talking to a Christian about religion and I interact with Christians on FaceBook like the woman from my high school class. I believe that your presence here on this forum is another of those opportunities and I welcome sincere interactions with others such as yourself. If you were insincere and prideful, then our replies would offend you and you would leave or you would come back and try to convince us that we are wrong.

I believe that you are searching for the Truth, but at the same time not wanting to let go of your fundamental beliefs about Jesus. I don't intend to offend you, but this reminds me of Linus and his security blanket on Peanuts/Charlie Brown. Why would a Christian reject the doctrine of free gift of salvation for the uncertainty on Judgment Day offered by Islam? My FB friend asked me, "What if you are wrong about Jesus Christ?" and I replied, "Well this question goes both ways because in Islam it is a major sin to say that Jesus is the Son of God." In the end we must each make our choice and then live and die with the consequences thereof. Everyone in my family thinks I made the wrong decision, but I know that I must give an account for my own life on Judgement Day and that I would be best being true to what I believe is the Truth. You too must make the same decision to hold onto your security blanket of Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross or let go of it and, like the Star Trek phrase, "Boldly go where no man has gone before."

 

[Burninglight]

Everyone in my family thinks I made the wrong decision, but I know that I must give an account for my own life on Judgement Day and that I would be best being true to what I believe is the Truth. You too must make the same decision to hold onto your security blanket of Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross or let go of it and, like the Star Trek phrase, "Boldly go where no man has gone before."

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

According to my Arabic-English dictionary, the word 'makr' means to plan a scheme, punish a deceiver, contrive a plot; however, if you go to answering-islam it defines makr as 'deception'. I found this site http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/refine-your-heart/advice/454367-self-criticism.html that says, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq used to say: "I would not feel safe from Allah's deep devising (makr) even if one of my feet was in paradise". Why did Abu Bakr say that? Because he thought that he does not deserve paradise as a guaranteed reward from Allah. This is Abu Bakr about whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "If the faith of Abu Bakr is put on one side of the scale and the faith of the nation of believers is put on the other side, the side of Abu Bakr will outweigh the other side". My understanding from this explanation is that, even though Abu Bakr was one of 10 people who were said to be of the people of Paradise, he did not feel secure in that promise in the sense that Christians feel secure in their salvation. So it seems you were pretty close in your understanding that the hadith referred to 'the uncertainty of judgment'.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

Yes, Muslims can't answer, "Are you saved?" in the affirmative, but my opinion is that the Christian confidence in their salvation is not as certain as they would like to think. For one thing consider the significance of the question that the Quran brings forward about the crucifixion of Jesus which is the core of Christian redemption. Again I mean no offence, but what the Christian plan of salvation brings to my mind is a twist on the 'Get out of Jail free' card in the game Monopoly.

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

Another way to look at the issue is that in the Quran, Satan promised to lead astray mankind after he was cast out of the Garden when He said: "Do you see? This is the one whom You have honoured above me! If You will but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!" One could consider that either the Christian or the Muslim has been led astray. From my perspective the Christian confidence in their salvation is an appealing point, but perhaps it should indicate the confidence that the Muslim has in Islam that he would choose the uncertainty of Judgement Day as taught in Islam over the 'blessed assurance, Jesus is mine' confidence offered by Christianity. The Muslim life is a balance between hope in the mercy of Allah and fear of His wrath.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I think you have a prtty good understanding of both our situations. Like you said. How can I let go of the free gift of salvation for the uncertainty of judgment. Even Abu Bakr said, "I Wouldn't trust the Makr of Allah even if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" PLZ correct this quote if it is wrong. I don't remmember the source, and don't want to spend an hour looking for it.

No Muslim knows if Allah will grant him or her eternal life in paradise, but I already know i have it by faith and God's grace. Moreover, I know Muslims have the same struggles in every day life as Christians. I also know that Muslims are not doing more good works or deeds than true Biblical Christians. So the only difference between us if our good deeds are equal is our believe about Jesus.

If Jesus did not come and die for our sin, Muslims were right and Christianity was the most elaborate contrived fabrication of all life's history; it is a blotch on mankind and a black hole that spans through the time and fabric of all societies in times past & to date that sucks away the mulitude forever, but if Jesus is the fufillment of prohecy as given in the Bible, then Muslims are looking at a Christless eternity for they have no justification for sin past sin present or future sin. Jesus has fullfilled over 300 prophecies already. Christians are sure that His death and resurrection were one of them as stated in both the OT and NT! it looks like we are all free to choose and choose we must, but we are never free from the consequences of our choices.

Peace

The Bible CLEARLY rejects the doctrine of ‘atonement’. We are responsible for our own sins:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. (Jeremiah 31:30)

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert. (Psalms 28:4)

According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. (Isaiah 59:18)

For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. (Jeremiah 25:14)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:7-8)

You claim Jesus wanted to die for the world? Wrong he clearly did NOT wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this cup from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)


Francis David by W.C Gannett correctly states concering the troubling and disturbing concept of blood atonement:

“The church`s God son who is supposed to have been born of the substance of God from the beginning of eternity is nowhere mentioned in the scriptures nor the God son who would be second person of the trinity descended from heaven and become flesh this is only human invention and superstition as such should be discarded.”

So NOWHERE is it explicitley mentioned ANYWHERE in the teachings of Jesus or the Bible of the blood atonement of Christ being necessery for the abolition of the "stain" of the original sin upon mankind.

Arthur Weigall rightfully puts the blood atonement of sin as:

“We can no longer accept the appalling theological doctrine that for some mystic reason a propitiatory sacrifice was necessary. It outrages either our conception of God as Almighty or else our conception of Him as All-Loving. The famous Dr. Cruden believed that for the purpose of this sacrifice ‘Christ suffered dreadful pains inflicted by God’, and this, of course, is a standpoint which nauseates the modern mind and which may well be termed a hideous doctrine, not unconnected with the sadistic tendencies of primitive human nature. Actually, it is of pagan origin, being, indeed, perhaps the most obvious relic of heathendom in the Faith”.

Just like the trinity and theotokas the blood atonement doctrine is a blasphemy against the justice of God. A very troubling, disturbing and cruel concept unfounded by the teachings of ANY prophet or Jesus not is it mentioned in the teachings of the Christian deity or the Bible.

How could the sacrifice of an innocent man wash off the sins of others? God Almighty is never unjust even in least degree, how this injustice and unkindness can ever be attributed to Him is unthinkable.

God Almighty is Absolute and Merciful enough to forgive the sins, even without sacrifices.


Ulfat Aziz- Us- Samad puts this dogma very well:

This dogma is not only a denial of the mercy of God but also of His justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others… We fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

I would like to conclude with Tom Harpers statement:

Perhaps I am lacking in piety or some basic instinct, but I know I am not alone in finding the idea of Jesus’ death as atonement for the sins of all humanity on one level bewildering and on the other morally repugnant. Jesus never to my knowledge said anything to indicate that forgiveness from God could only be granted after or because of the cross.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

THE BLOOD ATONEMENT OF CHRIST IS NOT TAUGHT BY ANY PROPHET, JESUS OR THE BIBLE!

How is is possible that one of the most fundamental teachings of Christianity was not explicitly taught by Jesus or ANYWHERE in the Bible?

The fundamentals of Islam are clearly backed up by the Qur'an and Sunnah and are consitant with what is contained within them but WHY is it that the 3 most fundamental concepts in Christianity being the trinity, the theotokos and the blood atonement of Christ are NOT taught by ANY prophet, nor are they mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible nor are they taught by Jesus Christ himself nor did he EVER even mention them!

Did the Bible and Jesus forget to mention such fundamental concepts?

Would Jesus or the Bible leave their people so confused about such fundamental concepts which are central to the foundations of Christianity? Or was it that these concepts were only created hundreds of years after Jesus created by theologians? Clearly the latter seems to be more consistant with historical referances as well as the fact that the concepts are NOT actually taught by any prophet, Jesus or in the bible.


The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that:

“... God is NOT the author of confusion ...”

This verse PROVES that God would NEVER confuse his people or keep such fundamental concepts a mystery only to be created by theologians hundreds of years after Jesus.

Therefore it is clear from the teachings of Jesus that the teaching of the blood atonement is NOT consistant with any of the teachings of the Prophets, Jesus or in the Bible and all you have provided is a single verse that Jesus - in order to take them out of darkness into light,- incurred the wrath of the evildoers and was tortured by them; but it does NOT say or imply that his death was an atonement for the sins of others and that only those who believe in his blood would be forgiven.

In regards to sin being a personal responsibility then Allah the Almighty explicitly emphasizes that one’s own sin is his sole responsibility, and should not be borne by another. The Holy Qur’an states:

“Say: ‘Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the need of its acts on none but itself. No bearer of burdens call bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed.” (Qur’an 6:164)

You talk about personal responsibility co-existing with the atonement of Christ then tell us how is it possible that an unborn baby that was not baptized before it's death is destined to Hell FOREVER just because it had a "default stain of sin" upon it from the first man on earth? What did the unborn baby do to deserve having such a "stain" upon it that had caused it to be destined to burn in Hell forever?

Surely every soul is responsible for their OWN sin then what did the unborn baby do to deserve such a cruel destiny when it had not done ANYTHING to deserve it? It had not even been given a chance to be born let alone having to suffer a cruel destiny of eternal torture just because its father thousands of years before committed a sin which it "inherited by default". In what way was it responsible for this "default stain of sin which it inherited"?


If we are all responsible for our own sins then WHY does an unborn baby have to suffer for a sin it was NOT responsible for?


According to the Bible:

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

Therefore my position is that Jesus and the Bible ONLY teach personal responsibility for our own sins and do NOT even mention ANYTHING about the blood atonement of Christ being necessery for the atonement of the inherited sin of mankind, which i have proven to you.


So the Bible from the teachings of God and Jesus along with the Qur'an teaches that we are responsible for our OWN sins and it certainly does NOT teach ANYTHING about Christ's blood being necessery for the atonement of the original sin which has been inherited by the whole of mankind and that baptizing is the ONLY way to get rid of such a sin.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

It is Paul who had CLEARLY abrogated and contradicted MANY of the teachings of Jesus and the laws of Moses.

In any society, where justice is one of the highest valued morals, killing an innocent man (Jesus) to wash away the sins of the guilty would be condemned as immoral, yet billions of people rejoice over this "gift" of injustice! Once again, the source of conflict is Paul and not Jesus. Jesus never talked about atonement or a "free-ride" through the blood of an innocent man.

On the contrary he said, "If you would enter life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17). It was Paul who brought the concept of the Original Sin into Christianity as you have proven by your posts.

Jesus CLEARLY contradicts Paul. Not only that, the Old Testament ALSO contradicts Paul as well:


Ezekiel 18:20-22

[20] The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

[22] None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 2 Chronicles 25:4

[4] But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin."

It is Paul who actually transformed the strict monotheism that Jesus proclaimed into a religion that is closer to Greek mythology, than it is towards either Judaism or Islam. Things like the "only begotten son", atonement for the sins of humanity etc. were all alien to the strict monotheism of Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and ALL the prophets of Israel (Peace be upon them all).

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard says regarding Paul: "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

Paul is claiming that this ideology is supported by the scriptures, and in this case he is making reference to the Hebrew Scriptures, or The Tanach. However, one will find that this idea of an innocent man, in this case Jesus, having to pay for the sins of others is NOWHERE to be found in the Hebrew Bible. In actuality, it is the exact opposite that is found in the Hebrew Scriptures;



“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statuses and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; in his righteousness that he hath done, he shall live.” Ezekiel 18:20-22

Without question, this passage runs in direct contrast with what we find in the teachings of Paul, and it also proves that Paul’s claim that his teachings are in accordance with the scriptures is TOTALLY FALSE.

The spilling of innocent blood for the redemption of mankind is a belief that has its roots in paganism and was adopted into Christianity by none other than Paul himself which was then solidified as dogma at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Blood atonement was NEVER a teaching of Jesus, nor did he EVER make mention of it.


the Bible is quite clear on the issue of sins being forgiven at the spilling of blood;


“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifice unto Me?, saith the Lord. I am full of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lamb or of he-goats.” Isaiah 1:11



The Bible itself actually makes it quite clear that forgiveness from sins comes from one’s sincerity in seeking forgiveness from Almighty God and from obedience to Him;


“Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High” Psalms 50:13-14

“I desired not sacrifices; I commanded not your fathers, when I stretched forth my hand to bring them out of Egypt, to offer burnt -- offerings to me, but only to obey my voice.” Jeremiah 7:21-22

And as for the innocent being made to pay for the sins of others, the Bible is also quite clear in that respect as well;


“And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, ‘Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.’ And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, ‘Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.’ And the LORD said unto Moses, ‘Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.’” Exodus 32:30-33


And from the words of Jesus himself one can also conclude that his true teachings where in perfect harmony with these mentioned passages;


“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:20


“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matthew 6:14-15


SO MANY examples can be used from the Bible that one is hard pressed in understanding how a Christian can claim to adhere to the Bible, and yet follow a totally opposite course. Here is yet further examples of what the Bible says;


“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children; neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16


“But the children of the murderers he put not to death; according to that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, ‘The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.’” 2 Kings 14:6


“But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.” Jeremiah 31:30


Again, the Bible states clearly how salvation can be achieved;


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14


“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7



This is clear proof from the teachings of Jesus himself that Jesus taught repentance, forgiveness and love to the Children of Israel only, and certainly NOT of blood atonement and original sin.

 

[Abz2000]

i'll add another which i found enlightening, it made me more willing to advise despite my own faults:

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life;
the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3

are you trying to imply that Jesus pbuh did not deliver the warning to the children of Israel?
because i believe he did.

 

[Burninglight]

Another way to look at the issue is that in the Quran, Satan promised to lead astray mankind after he was cast out of the Garden when He said: "Do you see? This is the one whom You have honoured above me! If You will but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!" One could consider that either the Christian or the Muslim has been led astray. From my perspective the Christian confidence in their salvation is an appealing point, but perhaps it should indicate the confidence that the Muslim has in Islam that he would choose the uncertainty of Judgement Day as taught in Islam over the 'blessed assurance, Jesus is mine' confidence offered by Christianity. The Muslim life is a balance between hope in the mercy of Allah and fear of His wrath.

Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" He didn't say work for it. Salvation is something no one can ever earn or deserve. It is a gift of God's mercy to us.

What Paul (God's apostle) meant by work out your own salvation is that once we receive God's gift we have something to work out, but until we receive it, we have nothing to work out, because we aren't meeting God on His terms. This is what I understand from Paul and that makes sense. IOW, how can I ever do enough good to merit God's mercy? I could never be sure I did enough. As a Christians I know my sin is coverd by the blood of Christ, but I know i will still face a works judgment on if I will receive rewards or suffer loss for burnt works. But without Christ and by negelecting so great a Salvation how is anyone going to escape the judgment of God if he doesn't accept God's "free get out of hell card" you spoke of?

There is noting we can do to make up for the blood sin trail we left in our life, God's mercy only comes through Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, but only for those who believe on His name the way the Bible teaches. Why do you think the children of Israel had to pick a prefect lamb to sacarafice for their sins? These things could never cleanse from sin, because they were just a shadow. Look at the passover, They put the blood of a lamb on the door post so the death angel would pass them by. That too was a shadow of Jesus who is prophecied to be out passover lamb so the death angel will not claim us for eternal death. You know this stories friend.

You can make the Bible say whatever you want, but in the end we will face judgment. Jesus said you will all die in your sin unless you believe I am He. Jesus said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you will have no life in you. Jesus is the bread that came down from heaven. Man doesn't live by bread alone but by every world that proceeds from the mouth of God. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as pretains to paradise for us is only Jesus; otherwise, your on your on and pay for your own sin that you tried to make up for on your own, but couldn't, and according to the Bible you cannot count on the mercy of God, because of wanting his mercy on different and strange terms and not His.

IMO, This message above is the gospel of Jesus and it was never lost!

 

[MustafaMc]

Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" He didn't say work for it. Salvation is something no one can ever earn or deserve. It is a gift of God's mercy to us.

Yes, Paul was all about faith and the Bible actually reveals a most serious conflict between his teachings and that of Jesus' disciples including Peter and James.

IOW, how can I ever do enough good to merit God's mercy? I could never be sure I did enough.

Is that how you perceive Muslims? We acknowledge we are at the Mercy of Allah (swt) and we constantly pray for His Forgiveness. The difference between us is that Muslims strive to be obedient servants of Allah (swt); whereas, Christians don't know how to follow what Jesus taught because so much of it has been lost to antiquity. Christians are left with Paul's doctrine of faith in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and WWJD, 'What Would Jesus Do?' In contrast, Muslims live by WDMD, 'What Did Muhammad Do?'

As a Christians I know my sin is coverd by the blood of Christ, but I know i will still face a works judgment on if I will receive rewards or suffer loss for burnt works. But without Christ and by negelecting so great a Salvation how is anyone going to escape the judgment of God if he doesn't accept God's "free get out of hell card" you spoke of?

Have you taken a Monopoly $20 bill to McDonald's and tried to buy a Big Mac, fries and a coke lately? Well, my belief is that what Christians rely upon for their salvation will be shown to be a myth on Judgment Day and that their 'Get out of Hell Free' card will be reject by Allah like the $20 at McDonald's. You will be left standing at the Mercy of Allah as I will be, but I will have my testimony of "Ashadu an la ilaha il'Allah wa Muhammadan abdahu wa rasul'Allah", my salah, sawm, zakat and hajj that you will not have. My prayer is that Allah (swt) will judge me to be a sincere and obedient servant and that He will have mercy on me and forgive me as He has promised in the Quran.

your on your on and pay for your own sin that you tried to make up for on your own, but couldn't, and according to the Bible you cannot count on the mercy of God, because of wanting his mercy on different and strange terms and not His.

IMO, This message above is the gospel of Jesus and it was never lost!

You illustrate the point I have made elsewhere in a writing, 'Atonement vs. Forgiveness'. There is absolutely no concept of forgiveness in Christianity only atonement through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The doctrine of atonement is in direct conflict with what Jesus taught regarding forgiveness. You basically say that what Jesus taught regarding forgiveness and mercy was just for funsies and the real message of the gospel was reserved for Paul to later receive as a revelation and preach to the Gentiles. Jesus gave the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple (Luke 18:9-14) with the tax collector praying ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ and Jesus implied that he was the one who went home justified. This parable is a clear illustration of forgiveness as is the parable of the Prodigal Son and no where is there any hint of atonement.

Again, you follow Paul and I follow Muhammad.

 

[Burninglight]

Have you taken a Monopoly $20 bill to McDonald's and tried to buy a Big Mac, fries and a coke lately?

They won't take it, I am sure of it, but they might take the "get out of hell free" offer.

This parable is a clear illustration of forgiveness as is the parable of the Prodigal Son and no where is there any hint of atonement.

Again, you follow Paul and I follow Muhammad

I would be lying if I said, "I don't see your point" If you see it that way, then I don't understand how you can judge for that, but I am thinking that Jesus meant that as an attiutude we should have like the sinner. No one knew of Christ's death at the time, because his time hadn't come so all things went as the tradition had been. There was no counting on the blood of Christ. But Paul's explanation makes sense when you read Isaiah 53.

This really gets confusing and complicated when you read into what was written different than Paul. Yes, I see if Paul didn't come into the equation, it would be a lot easier to pull Christians into Islam, but God allowed him to get into the Bible and he does act as a powerful buffer.

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted. You are gifted at apologetics so I know this and take that along with what you say into consideration.

 

[MustafaMc]

They won't take it, I am sure of it, but they might take the "get out of hell free" offer.
I would be lying if I said, "I don't see your point" If you see it that way, then I don't understand how you can judge for that, but I am thinking that Jesus meant that as an attiutude we should have like the sinner. No one knew of Christ's death at the time, because his time hadn't come so all things went as the tradition had been. There was no counting on the blood of Christ. But Paul's explanation makes sense when you read Isaiah 53.

What you wrote reminded me of the sermon I heard by Les Feldick as also found in "Paul's Gospel" written in the 1950s by William Newell, Someone may say, "Is not Christ the Great Teacher?" In a sense this is true; but in a real sense Christ is the Person taught about, rather than teaching in the Gospels. ... The twelve Apostles were to be the "witnesses" (Acts 1:22) of Christ’s resurrection—that is, of the fact of it. ... But unto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal the great body of doctrine for this Age. Just as God chose Moses to be the revelator to Israel for the Ten Commandments and all connected with the Law dispensation, so God chose Saul of Tarsus to be the revelator and unfolder of those mighty truths connected with our Lord’s death, burial, and resurrection and His ascended Person. Mr. Newell and Mr. Feldick boldly spoke the truth regarding to seminal origins for Christianity as we know it today. It seems that you also grasp the significance of that and you have the courage to admit it.:statisfie

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted. You are gifted at apologetics so I know this and take that along with what you say into consideration.

No, I couldn't argue for something I did not believe to be true. My abilities, or lack thereof, is as Allah (swt) has willed. If any good can be found in what I write, then surely it is from Allah (swt) and if any error is found, then surely it is from me. It seems that you discount what I say because you perceive that I am a good writer/debater and you feel leery of me because you think 'I could sell ice to an Eskimo' so to speak. I only ask that you evaluate my words according to your own intellect; however, I realize that Christianity is not about logic, but rather faith in what you have been taught is the truth and about their 'personal experiences with Jesus'. I sense that Christians, in general, mistrust their own abilty to think logically about religious matters.

 

[Abz2000]

You are the type of person that can make a good argument for Christianity if you wanted.

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves.

 

[MustafaMc]

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves.

You are exactly correct that a good debater could argue either side of an argument even if he didn't believe it to be true. That is called playing 'the Devil's advocate'. According to Wikipedia, In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. I could not argue for something I did not believe to be true, I would instead rather remain silent, insh'Allah. On this forum most of my posts have been supportive of Islam against Christianity and of Creation against Evolution. My struggle here is for the Truth as I understand it and against what I believe is false. Again what little knowledge I have is by the will of Allah (swt).

 

[Burninglight]

anyone can make an argument for anything they wanted just by blocking out pertinent facts, but it would be quite futile if they didn't believe it themselves

That is so true, but what good does it do them if they believe themsleves if its all a lie? Look you can show me things that appear wrong about Christianity, and I might even see your point, and I can do the same about Islam, but in the end neither of us are convinced. Why? It is because a man convince against his will is of the same opinion still. This is most unfortunate for mankind. Don't you think? Only our Creator knows what it takes to convinced us. So in the end, we are all at the Mercy of our Creator. Every Christians and every muslims will agree; don't you agree?

 

[Burninglight]

You are exactly correct that a good debater could argue either side of an argument even if he didn't believe it to be true. That is called playing 'the Devil's advocate'. According to Wikipedia, In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. I could not argue for something I did not believe to be true, I would instead rather remain silent, insh'Allah. On this forum most of my posts have been supportive of Islam against Christianity and of Creation against Evolution. My struggle here is for the Truth as I understand it and against what I believe is false. Again what little knowledge I have is by the will of Allah (swt).

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

 

[MustafaMc]

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

No, I believe that you believe in what you are arguing for.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Did you think that I am playing the devils advocate? IOW, not being convinced fully of what I say?

It is very apparent from many of your answers that you have many doubts and unanswered questions regarding your beliefs but you try your best to block them out and not think about them too much but these doubts and unanswered questions will keep eating away at you. How long can you continue to reconcile your beliefs in your mind when you know they are not backed up by the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, Christ or God but that you take your false beliefs regarding Christ and God from the Gospels of which Christian scholars have confirmed have no weight due to their unknown origins, compilers and writers and unathenticity. Is that where you take your beliefs from when the words and teachings of God and Christ are clear.

You will never be satisfied with such false and blasphemous beliefs from the words and teachings of unknown authors who never met nor had anything to do with Christ hundreds of years after Christ. No wonder so many Christians question and reject such beliefs. Most Christian converts to Islam were exactly like you. They tried to show how much they believe ut the doubts and unanswered questions got worse and worse until they could no longer simply ignore it or block it out. ow can any sane man be satisfied and content with putting their fath into the Gospels?

My friend it will keep eating away at you and your heart will never be satisfied until you have rejected such paganistic and erroneous beliefs taught by those who had nothing to do with Christ or God. Your heart will ONLY ever be satisfied with true monotheism and in the true message that every Prophet came to establish that there is NO ONE worthy of worship except God and that ONLY he ALONE is worthy of all worship - NOT his creations or manifestations.

 

[Burninglight]

No, I believe that you believe in what you are arguing for.

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

 

[Predator]

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

He wont come to confirm message of cross , he will come to break the cross

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

He will fight the people for the cause of Islam and will destroy the anti-christ.

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Thank you for that. Some think that Islam is eating away at me and that I am not fully convinced of what I believe. When in reality, Islam is strengthening my belief that Jesus is coming back to confirm the message of the cross! It is written: "There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood" It could NOT be just anyone's blood; it had to be Jesus'

According to who? Paul? You follow Paul over the teachings and words of God and Christ. Your heart will never be satisfied with such beliefs that have NO basis in any of the teachings of God and Christ.

Your faith depends on the Gospels and the Gospels have been confirmed by Christian scholars themselves as being EXTREMELY unreliable because it is not know when they were written nor is it known who they were written by.