~ The Caliphate's Time Has Come ~

  • Thread starter Thread starter Zman
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 46
  • Views Views 8K
HBot 5000 said:
Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists etc are pretty much divided on everything. Humans in general are divided on everything so what's your point?
Click to expand...

Well, that kinda was my point. Why would a new caliphate rise in a time of chaos. Why would Muslims suddenly not be divided anymore?

Between matters of religion their is only shiah (pff not Islam) and Sunni's and the rest are trivial matters. Were not divided on anything +o(
Click to expand...

Well, clearly Muslims are very divided on whether to create a caliphate and whether to implement the sharia fully. Heck, there are so many civil conflicts (both violent and non-violent) in Muslims countries I can hardly believe you really said that Muslims 'are hardly divided on anything'. Muslims are certainly more divided than say, Europeans, and we don't even share a religion that tells us to cooperate.
 
KAding said:
Well, that kinda was my point. Why would a new caliphate rise in a time of chaos. Why would Muslims suddenly not be divided anymore?



Well, clearly Muslims are very divided on whether to create a caliphate and whether to implement the sharia fully. Heck, there are so many civil conflicts (both violent and non-violent) in Muslims countries I can hardly believe you really said that Muslims 'are hardly divided on anything'. Muslims are certainly more divided than say, Europeans, and we don't even share a religion that tells us to cooperate.
Click to expand...

Out of chaos order will rise, whether it will rise in the form of the Calipha i don't know but one of the signs of the end of days is the rise of the Mahadi.

Your second comment 'muslims are certainly more divided than say, europeans' is complete tosh. European union works together for the stability of europe but don't you dare for 1 second assume the europeans arn't divided when it comes to pretty much everything. Take the european constitution- a no go, The Iraq war etc yadda yadda. Europe and America. USA and mexico, North America and south America etc. How about kosovo? I coud go on...

Muslims are not divided and it's only people like you that strike to drive a 'wedge' between us but we shall not allow you to do that, Allah :arabic4: willing. Sure there are discussions as with anything but don't think that this is a sign of divison.

By the way how exactly did you measure that muslims are more divided than say europeans? or did you simply make that up? :-\
 
Last edited:
Cognescenti said:
Didn't you just prove his point?

Let me see if I can answer that....YES..you did.

You say the Shia are not part of Islam...they say they are. That seems rather a big discrepancy. We are not talking about fish and game regulations. Nor are we talking about a couple of dozen kooks living in some cave. We are talking about > 100 million people.

BTW...the debate about the propriety (under Islam) of killing thousands of non-believers just to make a point seems not so "trivial" to me.
Click to expand...

No i didn't prove his point as they are not part of Islam. Prove they are! Go on. Head down to the sects forum and have a good read rather than spouting out rubbish.

You posting the above is a trivial point! Why don't you reveal what religion you belong to or are you so ashamed of it! At least the Atheists reveal what they are. Come on no need to be scared. :-\
 
noodles said:
I'd have to disagree here. Reading about countless wars and times of instability in my history lessons at University, if it is one thing I've learned, it is that chaos gives birth to stability. The end result doesn't necessarily have to be good, it can be bad too.

Also your hypothesis about the coming of caliphate after a firm foundation is established, might be, in my opinion, a little flawed.

The prevalent ideas in European Union are democracy and freedom. Yes, I agree that many Muslims like the appeal of democracy and also freedom. But when you examine the state of affairs of the whole country, you'd find secularism dominates any other. However, when you study Islam and the rule of Caliphs, you'd notice that Islam would remain the foundation of the Caliphate. The moment people stray from their religion, the whole concept of rule of Caliph falls.

The prophecies made by our prophet tell us that there will be chaos before the Caliph arrives and that Imam Mahdi (the caliph that Muslims will follow) will receive inspiration in one night and the followers will believe him. Since I'm a muslim, I believe it too.

I haven't really studied the Christian Prophecies much, but I believe I read somewhere that they too believe that Isa (as) [Christ] will arrive in the midst of chaos. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

Jews also have a similar concept with their Mosiach.

It is a matter of belief. Some take the statistics provided to them to heart and some reject them and claim it runs in cycles. Inconclusively, you can hypothesize about the circumstances under which the caliph will appear or be established based on what is happening and you can relate to present day things. Doesn't necessarily make you right.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I don't think the original opinion piece was talking about the arrival of the mahdi? It was talking about more traditional political and social processes IMHO which would lead to the reemergence of the caliphate.

But of course there is plenty of truth in what you said about stability. And, after all, the European Union only came about after the massive onslaught of the Second World War. Nevertheless, I really do feel many Muslims who want a new caliphate are too impatient, naive and fail to grasp that chaos does not necesarrily mean unity. It is naive to think a collapse of the US/West will bring unity any closer. There are too many sources of division within the Muslim world itself for that: the struggle between secularists/nationalists and islamists, the sunni/shia rift, the economic inequalities, the tribalism. Some Muslims like to gloss over that and act as if all of these divisions can be blamed on outside influences. These 'secular US puppets' have a significant power base in their own countries, they are not just there because the US wants them there.

I still don't see how 1.5 billion Muslims can unite politically without there first being some prosperity, a strong middle class and proper education. The reliance in the article on a single man, 'a new saladin', to unite the Muslim world once again betrays its naivity.
 
Out of interest. Once the Mahdi arrives it is only a matter of weeks before Judgement Day?
 
Zman said:
the Emirates, which imports Russian and Uzbek women as sex slaves.
Click to expand...
That's false and misleading info, so i don't know about the rest of the article if it is just as good :p

problem human trafficking is not just with Emirates (UAE), it is problem faced by all countries neighbouring former Soviet countries e.g. Iran, UAE, Saudia etc.

What is known, however, are the routes that are used to traffic women at an increasing rate from Central and Eastern Europe and the republics of the former Soviet Union . As a result of trafficking, Russian women are enslaved in prostitution in over 50 countries around the word. In some countries, such as Israel and Turkey , women from Russia and other republics of the former Soviet Union are so prevalent, that prostitutes are called "Natashas."

The International Organization for Migration (IOM), a UN-funded agency involved in trafficking prevention and which assists in the return of trafficked victims, estimates that 4000 women were trafficked from Kyrgyzstan in 1999 to either Europe or the Middle East , and that 5000 women are annually trafficked from Kazakhstan . Moldova , Ukraine and Russia are currently amongst the largest source areas for trafficking into Western Europe . Approximately 50 000 to 100 000 Moldovans, over 100 000 Ukrainians, and 500 000 Russians are active in prostitution outside their home country, and as many as 80% are estimated to be victims of trafficking.

Popular destination countries for women from Russia , Ukraine , Moldova and Georgia aside from Western European countries include Turkey , the countries comprising the former Yugoslavia , the United Arab Emirates , Israel , Syria , China , the United States , Canada and Japan . Destination countries for women from Central Asia are often China , the United Arab Emirates , Turkey , Greece or other CIS countries.

http://www.angelcoalition.org/epjs/e_trafficking.html
Click to expand...

What UAE is doing against it:
VIENNA, 1 December 2006 (UN Information Service) -- The head of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), Antonio Maria Costa, urged UN Member States to ensure that a major conference on human trafficking to be held in Abu Dhabi in March 2007 produces concrete results to help end the trade in human beings.

The Government of the United Arab Emirates will host the Abu Dhabi Global Initiative to End Trafficking in Persons from 26-28 March 2007, with the support of the Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research (ECSSR) and UNODC.

Around 1,000 representatives from government, NGOs and other bodies will attend what is expected to be the largest ever conference on human trafficking.

Mr Costa, the UNODC Executive Director, said in a speech in New York that the trade in human beings for exploitation in forced labour or the sex trade was thriving because it was lucrative. Firm action was needed to curb demand.

"Moral outrage is not going to stop the traffickers," he said.

"We need to change their risk and return balance, lowering their incentives to trade and increasing the threat of retribution. That means less demand for the products and services of exploited people: no cheap labour-intensive goods, no sex holidays, no conflict diamonds or pearls, no free toxic waste disposal, no inexpensive home services."

The UNODC Executive Director urged all United Nations Member States to implement the UN Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children.

"117 States have signed the Protocol and 110 have ratified it. But this is only a well-meaning piece of paper unless it is implemented," he added.

Mr. Costa said the Abu Dhabi Initiative was part of the global momentum that was building against trafficking in persons. "Greater attention to this modern form of slavery is spurring people and States to act," he said.

"There have been conferences that have changed the world's views on development assistance, the conditions of women, or the danger of the AIDS pandemic. So I urge you to attend and propose concrete initiatives to make the Abu Dhabi meeting the anti-slavery counterpart of these successful events."

Among other outcomes, Mr. Costa said he hoped the Abu Dhabi conference would lead to the establishment of a "clearing house" for internationally comparable data on trafficking in persons. "At the moment we all are in a statistical fog," he added.

http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pressrels/2006/uniscp534.html
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
HBot 5000 said:
No i didn't prove his point as they are not part of Islam. Prove they are! Go on. Head down to the sects forum and have a good read rather than spouting out rubbish.
Click to expand...

Sir, the point is the Shia say they are Muslim. There are some 150 million Shia who fervently believe they are Muslim. It doesn't matter what you think. Al Quaeda blows up a Shia mosque, the Shia blow up a Sunni mosque. Al Quaeda is able to draw on Sunni suicide bombers not to kill the "occupiers", but the to kill and mame as many Shia as possible. That seems rather a serious obstacle to common leadership to me.

You posting the above is a trivial point! Why don't you reveal what religion you belong to or are you so ashamed of it! At least the Atheists reveal what they are. Come on no need to be scared. :-\
Click to expand...

Well argued sir! I was nearly ready to concede with that. I am Chrisitian. How is that germane? I am pretty sure the Christians won't be invited into the Caliphate.

By the way, how old are you?
 
HBot 5000 said:
Have a look at this thread m8'ty and read my huge post:

http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-hereafter/44140-day-judgement-plz-read-help-me.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. It's a bit clearer to me now :).

The calipha could be a council and not a single man? but Kading it's naive to believe that it couldn't happen :-\
Click to expand...

I don't say it couldn't happen. In fact, I actually think that eventually in the long term the Muslim world will unite, like the European countries are slowly uniting. Whether this will be as an Islamic or secular system I don't know. Neither do I know whether such Muslim unity will ever be a truly unified state or simply very high levels of cooperation. I just don't think the collapse of the current world order will really help Muslim countries to unite, I think chaos is rather likely to divide them even more rather than unite.
 
The West is also divided, by religion its only in N Ireland.

But half of all the scotts want to separete from England. there are grenada and basque terrorists trying to make southern and northeastern spain indenpendent. There is America with wisconsin wanting to seperate. Canada and quebecians.

Some deluded idiots een talk about a second american civil war between liberals and republicans.

The truth is nobodys united, we are all divided, thats what makes us uniqe.
 
Besides, division is not necessarily a bad thing. To each his own. Not all rules would work for all cultures and peoples. Division can also mean diversity, which has its advantages. In fact, trying to enforce unity through dogma might well breed more violence and resistance.
 
KAding said:
Besides, division is not necessarily a bad thing. To each his own. Not all rules would work for all cultures and peoples. Division can also mean diversity, which has its advantages. In fact, trying to enforce unity through dogma might well breed more violence and resistance.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I am on no particular hurry to unite with the French, for example.

Scotland is a good example. There are some in the UK who wish to cede sovereignty to the EU...meanwhile some in Scotland don't want to be part of the UK :D
 
Sinbad said:
The West is also divided, by religion its only in N Ireland.

But half of all the scotts want to separete from England. there are grenada and basque terrorists trying to make southern and northeastern spain indenpendent. There is America with wisconsin wanting to seperate. Canada and quebecians.

Some deluded idiots een talk about a second american civil war between liberals and republicans.

The truth is nobodys united, we are all divided, thats what makes us uniqe.
Click to expand...

Well why dont you just go and give them all chocolate and see if that fixes everything
 
^^No but most of us do follow one or accept their views. So um yea, some got a bit of it inside them. I mean we DO discuss it dont we.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top