The Central Flaw of Christianity (another article)

[Ramadhan]

hamza, the very source you quote once again says that blood atonement is taught! how can you now say that it isn't?

Show us where human blood atonement is taught, solinvectus.

If it is taught, then give us the verses of human blood atonement

 

[Ramadhan]

the matter is quite simple, if you believe that you actually refuted my words, simply quote for us this post. why can you not line up my words against the articles that you copy and paste?

are talking to yourself in the mirror, sol?

and where did you copy paste the false matthew 16:28 from?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

the matter is quite simple, if you believe that you actually refuted my words, simply quote for us this post. why can you not line up my words against the articles that you copy and paste?

The matter is quite simple, go back and read every post of mine in this thread and EVERY single one has refuted everyone of your failed arguments. I do not need to waste my time quoting your posts when anyone can just read both of our posts alongside one another and compare them.

I ask anyone to read my posts and that of Sol and you will see that Sol has consistantly failed in EVERY assertion and argument that he has tried to decievingly prove. He has even sink so as low as to misquote verses from the Bible just to try and prove his failed position but instead has only exposed himself as a cunning liar and deciever.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

hamza, the very source you quote once again says that blood atonement is taught! how can you now say that it isn't?

YES BY PAUL! We all acknowledge that NOT ANY PROPHET JESUS OR GOD!

But what the source did do is refute your failed argument that the blood atonement is taught in the Hebrew Bible. What will you do next Sol your stuck now

 

[Ramadhan]

I'm sure sol is checking what mistake he made.

He surely doesnt know his bible, while I knew right away what mistake he made.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

My Source also states this:

And the reason why they had no such fear, was that the Bible makes it explicitly clear that no blood sacrifice is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, or that the exclusive means for the God-man relationship was through the animal sacrifices.

Those who believe that one must have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins look to Leviticus 17:11, which reads:

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." [Leviticus 17:11]

But if you read the whole context of this verse, you will find that it is in reference to abstaining from eating the blood of a sacrifice, and nothing more. God commanded the abstaining from eating or drinking blood because most other pagan religions ate the blood of their sacrifices as a way to incorporate their gods into their bodies and into their lives.

But the Holiness of the People of Israel requires them to not practice the pagan ways and not to hold the same beliefs of their pagan neighbors.

The whole quotation from Leviticus 17 reads:

Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood-- I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Therefore I say to the Israelites, `None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood. Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, because the life of every creature is its blood.' That is why I have said to the Israelites, `You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.'"

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I'm sure sol is checking what mistake he made.

He surely doesnt know his bible, while I knew right away what mistake he made.

Very well spotted brother. Who knows how many other deceptions he has got away with. This has totally destroyed his credibility here as all can see.

He also tried to assert what the Jewish belief is when it is very much against the pagan practises brought into Christianity by Paul. How low will he go next? That remains to be seen....

 

[Sol Invictus]

The matter is quite simple, go back and read every post of mine in this thread and EVERY single one has refuted everyone of your failed arguments. I do not need to waste my time quoting your posts when anyone can just read both of our posts alongside one another and compare them.

I ask anyone to read my posts and that of Sol and you will see that Sol has consistantly failed in EVERY assertion and argument that he has tried to decievingly prove. He has even sink so as low as to misquote verses from the Bible just to try and prove his failed position but instead has only exposed himself as a cunning liar and deciever.

the difference here is that i have in fact read every one of your posts and responded to each point until you began merely copying and pasting entire articles. while we both could indeed engage in the same sort, i'd rather not. furthermore, every jewish source you have since quoted has said that blood atonement is taught. once again you get into the same problem that i initially highlighted of having your own sources contradict you. furthermore, you have consistently avoided actually dealing with my points. can you go back and quote for us which statements of mine that your above article actually refutes? this should be simple enough, right?

He has even sink so as low as to misquote verses from the Bible just to try and prove his failed position but instead has only exposed himself as a cunning liar and deciever.

i don't know what child would take the above seriously. for one thing it is a mis-citation and not a misquotation. the only person who has shown themselves to have been a liar in this discussion has been you. it is in fact quite strange that you had misattributed the words of jeremiah 7:22-23 to isaiah 7:22-23 and now would accuse me of being a liar for committing a similar error. hamza, when someone begins to blow such a simple mistake over proprortion, it is quite evident that they are actually the one who is lying.

 

[Ramadhan]

Quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus View Post the very post you have cited contains explicit words by previous prophets and yet you refuse to believe this.

Please make the part bold and you can enlarge the size to size 10 if you want. Where were the prophets say that human sacrifices were the method of payment of sins? Show us, solinvectus. Sol, this is what Jesus said:

I am still waiting for this, solinvectus.

Wheres that verses by prophets that taught human blood atonement to pay for the sins.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

the difference here is that i have in fact read every one of your posts and responded to each point until you began merely copying and pasting entire articles. while we both could indeed engage in the same sort, i'd rather not. furthermore, every jewish source you have since quoted has said that blood atonement is taught. once again you get into the same problem that i initially highlighted of having your own sources contradict you. furthermore, you have consistently avoided actually dealing with my points. can you go back and quote for us which statements of mine that your above article actually refutes? this should be simple enough, right?


i don't know what child would take the above seriously. for one thing it is a mis-citation and not a misquotation. the only person who has shown themselves to have been a liar in this discussion has been you. it is in fact quite strange that you had misattributed the words of jeremiah 7:22-23 to isaiah 7:22-23 and now would accuse me of being a liar for committing a similar error. hamza, when someone begins to blow such a simple mistake over proprortion, it is quite evident that they are actually the one who is lying.

Anyone reading my posts in this thread will know that EVERY point of yours has been THOROUGHLY refuted and whenever you are given a direct question you AVOID it like anything. I am still waiting for many of my questions to be answered but you REFUSE to answer them!

It is clear Sol that the proof of your lies and deception are evident across this thread as well as all others you have participated in. It will simply take one to go through your posts to realise this fact for themselves.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Wheres that verses by prophets that taught human blood atonement to pay for the sins.

no one's life but that of the messiah. did you not read the words of the jewish rabbis? are these then liars as well?

 

[Ramadhan]

i don't know what child would take the above seriously. for one thing it is a mis-citation and not a misquotation. the only person who has shown themselves to have been a liar in this discussion has been you. it is in fact quite strange that you had misattributed the words of jeremiah 7:22-23 to isaiah 7:22-23 and now would accuse me of being a liar for committing a similar error. hamza, when someone begins to blow such a simple mistake over proprortion, it is quite evident that they are actually the one who is lying.

Wheres the verses by prophets that taught blood atonement solinvectus?

Here's the verses that BANNED the practice:

Human blood for atonement are explicitly banned:

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy W-h-oredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]

 

[Ramadhan]

no one's life but that of the messiah. did you not read the words of the jewish rabbis? are these then liars as well?

Please give us the verses from previous prophets or god where human blood is required to pay for the sins, sol

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Let us see what else my source states:

Bible tells us we do not need any blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. This proves that the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin is an UnBiblical idea.

The Rabbi has thoroughly refuted your deceitful claims.

 

[Ramadhan]

Br. Hamza, I think I agree with you. Debtaing with sol you must not lose focus, and keep asking him for proof and evidence, because he seems to be trying to divert by throwing in smoke and mirror and clutching at strwmen such as "are you saying the jewish rabbis were liar"?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Anyone reading my posts in this thread will know that EVERY point of yours has been THOROUGHLY refuted and whenever you are given a direct question you AVOID it like anything. I am still waiting for many of my questions to be answered but you REFUSE to answer them!

i had already called you out on the matter that none of your posts actually dealt with my claim. all your articles agreed that blood atonement was taught in the bible and that blood atonement did remove sin. what they were responding to was that blood atonement was not the only means of removing sin. but this is what i had actually said:

you'll find that i chose my words very carefully (which i suppose is why you had to make up a false quote). the only method of paying for sin is death (and please do not even say forgiveness because forgiveness is not paying for your sin. payment is justice, forgiveness is mercy--let us not confuse the two). because sin is paid through death, this then allows for the animal sacrifices in the old testament (which once again your source actually agrees with). you had claimed that atonement by blood was not taught in the bible and yet both myself and your source have proven you wrong.

the reason why your post failed so spectacularly hamza is because your source was responding to a somewhat similar enough argument as mine so that you, who evidently never understood the argument in the first place, could make the mistake that he was actually refuting my position when actually my argument was different enough so that the above could not apply. this once again highlights how you have not been able to grasp my argument nor even the argument that your very own source was making (for your benefit, your source is trying to show that god has forgiven without the shedding of blood and not that payment of sin can be had without death. this of course leads us to the conundrum between justice vs. mercy and i'm sure we would love for you to give us how the muslim deity harmonizes these two. for somewhere along the line, a just god must enact justice and forgiveness is not justice but rather mercy) for they aren't arguing that biblical judaism didn't teach blood atonement. anyway, you and your co-religionists are more than welcome to try to think up an answer to my question but the matter of whether blood atonement is taught in scripture is already settled.

the problem here is that you cannot actually show how my words were wrong. we will make this extremely easy because i certainly can't continue a discussion that keeps going in circles like this: is the above true or false? if not, can you please explain to us why this is not the case?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Let us see what else my source states:

Bible tells us we do not need any blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. This proves that the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin is an UnBiblical idea.

The Rabbi has thoroughly refuted your deceitful claims.

The God-man relationship was never limited to the animal sacrifices, nor was it ever the only means by which a human being obtained forgiveness from God for sin.

does the above say that blood atonement did not forgive sins or not?

 

[Ramadhan]

Sol, I am still waiting for those verses where jesus, prophets or god said that human blood must be spilt for atonement

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

i had already called you out on the matter that none of your posts actually dealt with my claim. all your articles agreed that blood atonement was taught in the bible and that blood atonement did remove sin. what they were responding to was that blood atonement was not the only means of removing sin. but this is what i had actually said:

Sol throughout this thread the crux of our discussion was the following:

Provide proof and evidence from the EXPLICIT words and teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus of the teaching of the blood atonement of Christ.

This is a question that you have CONSTANTLY avoided to such an extent that you avoid it like anything. You have tried to provide vague verses that speak NOTHING of such a teaching and have consistantly failed to prove your position.

We are still waiting for you to prove your position using EXPLICIT words and teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus of the teaching of the blood atonement of Christ.

the problem here is that you cannot actually show how my words were wrong. we will make this extremely easy because i certainly can't continue a discussion that keeps going in circles like this: is the above true or false? if not, can you please explain to us why this is not the case?

Your position was that you asserted that the Hebrew Bible taught that blood is necessery for the atonement of sin and i used two sources to refute your false argument from the Jewish perspective:

Source 1

No where in the Hebrew Bible does it say blood is the ONLY way to make atonement for our sins. In fact there are several verses that prove otherwise. Also, no where in the Hebrew Bible does it say a person can die for someone elses sins, in fact it says the exact opposite.

All throughout the book of Ezekiel we are taught how to return to God by giving up our evil ways and he will forgive us. Did any of these verses say blood is needed to make atonement? No, the claim that blood is the ONLY way to make atonement for our sins is a man made ideology, for clearly the Hebrew Bible tells us otherwise.

When people tell me that Jesus is the ONLY way to make atonement for our sins then they should know that the Hebrew bible tells me otherwise.

Source 2

"The Bible makes it explicitly clear that no blood sacrifice is necessary for the forgiveness of sins."

"Bible tells us we do not need any blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. This proves that the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin is an UnBiblical idea."


So both sources are in agreement using vast evidences that the blood atonement of sin being necessery is NOT taught in the Hebrew Bible therefore once again your position has been thoroughly refuted.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

does the above say that blood atonement did not forgive sins or not?

The Rabbi Stuart Federow answers your question regarding this verse:

"Read the whole context of this verse, you will find that it is in reference to abstaining from eating the blood of a sacrifice, and nothing more. God commanded the abstaining from eating or drinking blood because most other pagan religions ate the blood of their sacrifices as a way to incorporate their gods into their bodies and into their lives.

But the Holiness of the People of Israel requires them to not practice the pagan ways and not to hold the same beliefs of their pagan neighbors.

The whole quotation from Leviticus 17 reads:

Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood-- I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Therefore I say to the Israelites, `None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood. Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, because the life of every creature is its blood.' That is why I have said to the Israelites, `You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.'"