The Character of God

[Ben]

Since, in the bitterly cutting words of our dear sister, Gossamer Skye, I am not “reasonable” or “discerning,” (yet she kindly wishes me all the best…I’m sure that was truly heartfelt) I suppose you’ll have to pardon me for making you wade through another one of my terribly sophomoric posts. But please take it easy with the personal attacks; how is that constructive?

Zafran, we seem to be repeating ourselves, so I’ll give it just this one last shot and then move on. In your last two posts, what I’ve gathered is that you can accept that Christ dying on the cross is the ultimate act of mercy (presupposing, as you mention, the veracity of the event). The problem you have is how Christ’s sacrificial death equates to justice.

I think the need for a sacrifice shows God’s absolute justice. All throughout the Old Testament we see examples of the Children of Israel sinning and then having to offer sacrifices to pay for their sin. Christians believe that “the wages of sin is death,” (Romans 6:23). We all sin, and we fall short. It would be nice if God could just let us off the hook, but that would be compromising his justice. Fortunately for us, his mercy AND justice are met at the cross. To pay the price of sin, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God (John 1:29) and bore the punishment for every sin. The price was paid and justice was administered.

If you still have misunderstandings about this, I’d encourage you to pray about it and continue to study the Christian doctrine of salvation on your own. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

 

[Ben]

I once more turn to respond to Ali_008’s post. Summarily, what you’ve said is, “Follow a sin with a good deed, and you will erase [the sin].” Still, I see no justice. Think about saying this to a police officer, “I know I broke the law when I went through the red light. Please forgive me. At the next 10 intersections I will not speed up if the light is yellow.” If the officer lets him go, the officer has shown mercy, but justice has not been administered. Similarly, think about praying this to Allah, “Allah, I screwed up again. Please forgive me. I will ameliorate my ways and do good instead.” Allah can forgive you and show mercy, but he has not administered justice. I still see Allah’s justice and mercy at war with each other.

To gather the loose threads, on the Christian view I have laid out what I see as a plausible reconciliation of God’s mercy and justice, namely through Christ’s sacrifice. On the Muslim view, I think my objections remain, and therefore constitute real problems for the Muslim conception of God, on the basis of which I do not find it plausible or adequate theologically. In an effort to free ourselves from spinning our wheels, I have nothing more to say on this subject.

 

[جوري]

Since, in the bitterly cutting words of our dear sister, Gossamer Skye, I am not “reasonable” or “discerning,” (yet she kindly wishes me all the best…I’m sure that was truly heartfelt) I suppose you’ll have to pardon me for making you wade through another one of my terribly sophomoric posts. But please take it easy with the personal attacks; how is that constructive?

I have not put you alongside the words 'reasonable' and 'discerning' but perhaps on a subconscious level you have gleaned the folly in your writing and felt the terms applicable? who knows-- my purpose here, given how much I've spent on observation of your previous thread pales in comparison with the textual evidence I have brought forth from both the Quran and Sunnah! which I rather be the focus in lieu of psychoanalyzing how I better dispense my comments with kid gloves and ironically not expect it back in return of course given the Christian exemption from same common sense.. .. 'All the best' are parting words I leave on every thread and usually meant for all the readers at large, as I am sure you are not the only person who reads the posts here?
The constructive portion of the thread was quite expansive and referenced in my point of view and again for those who read, discern and reflect!

I think the need for a sacrifice shows God’s absolute justice. All throughout the Old Testament we see examples of the Children of Israel sinning and then having to offer sacrifices to pay for their sin. Christians believe that “the wages of sin is death,” (Romans 6:23). We all sin, and we fall short. It would be nice if God could just let us off the hook, but that would be compromising his justice. Fortunately for us, his mercy AND justice are met at the cross. To pay the price of sin, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God (John 1:29) and bore the punishment for every sin. The price was paid and justice was administered.

A sacrificial God, is an inept God at best, we see that of course on several levels (if we are to accept Jesus' Godhood') firstly he is inept at best at choosing apostles that are supposed to carry out his message after the point where he forsakes himself.. we see him have a conversation with Peter asserting that he will deny him three times before the act where he as a god forsakes himself and indeed so peter does.. now, god visits in the garden of Gethsemane with what I assume again is himself, begging that he not be forsaken.. yet god forsakes himself the next day and with it breaks one of his commandments or maybe two.. both on suicide and homicide... god realizes his message is incomplete and his apostles are in a tizzy so he chooses a nemesis with which to abrogate all his commandments from the OT, giving up the sabbath, circumcision, eating swine etc etc through a man whose integrity is questionable at best, thus leaving the masses and not just his apostles in a bigger tizzy.. an example of God's Justice? is it really necessary? I am not sure.. if God is so loving, why does he not love all equally and would rather throw in hell children and other believers for merely not buying into the self-immolating tid bit?
Where is the justice in Anna Nicole smith talking about her love of Jesus and extorting money and shedding her clothes but enters in heaven for the mere belief in Jesus eating her sin? while a Muslim who attests to the oneness of God, prays, fasts, gives alms, makes pilgrimage and lives aright ends up in hell for not buying into the god eating sins bit? Do you sense not only a clash but something quite counter intuitive to nature? I do!

If you still have misunderstandings about this, I’d encourage you to pray about it and continue to study the Christian doctrine of salvation on your own. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

The very fulcrum upon which the christian doctrine stands is incredibly shaky and faulty at best.. thus one is best left walking aright the straight path of Abraham than taking a detour into very dreadful and questionable territory!..

all the best indeed!

 

['Abd-al Latif]

To Jon Paul.

I suppose information to be copy-pasted from an anti-islamic website was inevitable, wasn't it? Why is this such a common trait amongst christians?

Have you even read the Qur'an? Do you even know what you're blindly refuting?

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

Oh but the Qur'an does reject the Trinity, it rejects it outright and don't let a translation confuse you because the original arabic is clear. Please do make an effort to read the links that I provide you with.

Allah says: “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God” (Quran 5:73)

Oh and just for your reference, I have come across christians who say that god is third of a three in the trinity so don't let your website fool you.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying that God is three. Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

No not really, the Qur'an condems the christians for their inaccurate beliefs in Almighty god which include the trinity, exaggerating the son of mary to be either god, or part of three gods or someone who acts as some sort of intecessor with god.

Again Allah says:

“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a Messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, ‘Three’; desist! —it is better for you. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is God as Disposer of affairs.” (Quran 4:171)

Secondly, the fact is that the Quran itself teaches that Allah is tri-personal in some sense since it views God's Word and His Spirit as entities that are both distinct from Allah and yet at the same time eternal and inseparable from him. For instance, God's Spirit is personal as well as the instrument through which God grants life to man and strengthens believers:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29

Man was given life by God's Spirit, implying that the Spirit is the source of life.

"She (Mary) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent Our Spirit (ruh), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." S. 19:17

That's an incorrect interpertation.

The arabic word Rooh is translated as either a spirit or soul and s spirit or a soul is not an attribute of Allah rather it is one of the things 'created' by Allah.

A Muslim scholar by the name of Ibn Taymiyah said:

Simply mentioning something in conjunction with Allah does not mean that that thing is a Divine attribute, rather specific created things may be mentioned in conjunction with Allah and their attributes are not divine attributes, according to scholarly consensus – as in the phrases, "the House of Allah", the "she-camel of Allah", the "slaves of Allah". The same also applies to the phrase "the spirit (rooh) of Allah" according to the earliest generations of the Muslims and their imams and their common folk. But if something that is one of His attributes and is not an attribute shared by anyone else is mentioned in conjunction with Him, such as the speech of Allah, the knowledge of Allah, the hand of Allah, and so on, then this is one of His attributes. [From al-Jawab al-Saheeh, 4/414.]

This principle was mentioned by him in several places. The point is that things which are mentioned in conjunction with Allah are of two types:

1 – Entities which exist separately. These are mentioned in conjunction with Allah by way of honouring, such as the House of Allah and the she-camel of Allah, and also the spirit (in Arabic: rooh) of Allah, which is not a divine attribute, rather it is something that exists separately. Hence the Prophet (saaws) said, according to the lengthy hadeeth of al-Bara' ibn 'Azib which describes how man dies and his soul or spirit (rooh) comes out: "It comes out flowing like a drop of water from the mouth of a vessel… and he (the Angel of Death) takes it, and when he takes it they (the angels) do not leave it in his hand for an instant but they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume… and there comes out from it a smell like the finest fragrance of musk on the face of the earth, and they ascend with it…" [See the report of this hadeeth in Ahkaam al-Jana'iz ib by al-Albaani, p. 198]

The Prophet (saaws) said: "When the soul (rooh) is taken, the eyes follow it." Narrated by Muslim, 920.

In other words, when the soul is taken the eyes follow it, watching to see where it goes. All of this indicates that the soul is something that exists separately.

2 – Attributes that do not exist separately, rather they need an entity to belong to, such as knowledge, will and power. If it is said, "the knowledge of Allah", the "will of Allah" and so on, this is mentioning the attribute in conjunction with the One to Whom it belongs.

And in 19:17 the word 'Ruh' which is translated as spirit or soul - and in this case it is spirit - is referring to the angel Gabriel.

God's Spirit assumes the form of a man and is described with masculine pronouns. This indicates that the Spirit is not just some force, but is a divine personality.

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali

Again, refer to what I was explaining above. "and strengthened them with Ruh from Himself" means, "He gave them strengths".

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet, only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion one Muslim scholar comes to in his footnote. Yusuf Ali notes:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)

Hence, the Spirit is of the divine essence, is incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, all qualities that are true of God.

If Yusuf Ali meant 'holy spirit' the most likely he was referring to Gabriel which was sent by Allah. As for him saying 'divine spirit' I need to see his writing in arabic to see what he actually meant. Regardless, the argument I presented earlier clearifies this.

This also refutes the Muslim claim that the Spirit of God is the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine. In fact, both the Quran and hadiths clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

As I said before the arabic rooh is translated as spirit or soul and we come to find which of the two is meant according to the context of the sentence. In this verse the world rooh means the human soul.

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

I've cleared this above so i'm not going to repeat my self.

I won't bother reading the rest of the article because it's just twisted words to suit the whims and desires of those people who have never read the Qur'an or known Islam.

Honestly, these arguments are so ridiculous so please just ask questions instead of copy-pasting twisted texts.

 

[Ali_008]

I once more turn to respond to Ali_008’s post. Summarily, what you’ve said is, “Follow a sin with a good deed, and you will erase [the sin].” Still, I see no justice. Think about saying this to a police officer, “I know I broke the law when I went through the red light. Please forgive me. At the next 10 intersections I will not speed up if the light is yellow.” If the officer lets him go, the officer has shown mercy, but justice has not been administered. Similarly, think about praying this to Allah, “Allah, I screwed up again. Please forgive me. I will ameliorate my ways and do good instead.” Allah can forgive you and show mercy, but he has not administered justice. I still see Allah’s justice and mercy at war with each other.

To gather the loose threads, on the Christian view I have laid out what I see as a plausible reconciliation of God’s mercy and justice, namely through Christ’s sacrifice. On the Muslim view, I think my objections remain, and therefore constitute real problems for the Muslim conception of God, on the basis of which I do not find it plausible or adequate theologically. In an effort to free ourselves from spinning our wheels, I have nothing more to say on this subject.

Brother, if something good cannot replace evil then the chance of something unjust and terrible replacing is out of the question. If you put a little more thought to it the Christian ideology of God makes him all loving and thats it. God is the Most Merciful and the Most Just. The Christian ideology completely negates it. It just says that God loves humans so so so much that he sacrificed one individual and that one indivual is his so-called son. Where's the idea of mercy and justice here?

I agree with Gossamer skye again and this time, I'll give you another logical analysis of God's love but this time of the Christian ideology.

To begin with Muslims do not believe that Christ was crucified and so the points I'm gonna lay down are just for the sake of argument and I firmly believe that Christ did not die on the cross neither was he crucified nor is he God/ son of God.

The idea that Christ died on the cross for others' sins completely throws the thought of God's mercy and justice out of the window. Where did the mercy of God go when one individual was getting such brutal punishment? And according to your own ideology all humans are the children of God and not his slaves. What makes you think that a God who could sacrifice one of his sons for the sake of others wouldn't make that decision again and what if some angel comes to you tonight saying "the cup of iniquity of this world is full again and as Christ did 2000 years ago, you'll have to do the same thing today. The people are waiting outside to put you on the cross." Would you get on the cross???????????????????????????? :? And what kind of father is this that keeps the best for himself and sends his children to this demonic earth to suffer and gives a life that has death while he stays eternal in the heavens. The idea of God loving people so much as to sacrifice his son doesn't sound merciful, it rather sounds Psychotic. God loves you regardless of your faith and identity. It doesn't matter whether you're the Pope or Pharaoh, God loves you. Sin as much as you want because just Jesus (peace be upon him) is accountable for them. Commit more and more so that he returns soon and gets on the cross again for you just because God has this psychotic obsession with you. Jesus didn't get on the cross for his companions alone but also for Pharaoh, Goliath, Abimelech, the people who beheaded John (peace be upon him) and every wretched sinner that spat on the face of righteousness and piety.

Brother I'm sorry, I'd rather worship a God who reasonably loves me than someone who has this psychotic obsession with me while keeping me on this earth and asking me not to sin when I don't even have to account for it. :skeleton::skeleton::skeleton:

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

'God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners..

then why punish the loved ones in fire ?? why not send them in to paradise directly ??

 

[Al Ansari]

Of course the pious is not the same as the evil-doer. The problem is that Allah loves not the impious and sinful. Over and over again the Qur’an declares that Allah does not love the very people that the Bible says God love so much that he sent his only son to die for them. Thus Allah is not perfectly moral.

Well, 'Abd-al Latif, people who reject Allah are going to hell, too, so it seems futile to raise this point since it’s consistent in both of our beliefs. The difference, however, is that God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Timothy 2:4). But as consistent as a drumbeat throughout the Qur’an, Allah loves only those who love him. Allah’s love is partial, but this is inconsistent with the necessary all-loving nature of God, thus making Allah morally deficient.

In the name of Allaah

In an authentic narration of the beloved Messenger Muhammad ( prayers and peace be upon him) taken from Sahih Bukhari 475

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision.

Patience is indeed a part of love. Is it not love that Allaah, the exalted gives respite to all of his creation--those who believe and those who disbelieve?

Is it not love that Allaah, the exalted has given the believers and the disbelievers the same faculties in order to seek His truth?

Why does Allaah, dislike the "sinners", "wrongdoers", "hypocrites", etc? It is because of their deeds. Their deeds are impure, their intentions are impure, and their entire person is impure.

In a translation of the meaning, Allaah, the exalted states in his Noble Book, The Qur'aan:

"And He is the Forgiving and Loving" (Qur'an 85:14)

Allaah is the most merciful, the most forgiving, and compassionate and this is His love. Allaah loves us so much that he can hear our prayers directly without any intermediaries. He loves us so much that He never stops forgiving us if we are truly sincere. Love is connected with the deeds of a person.

If a man told his wife "I love you.", then he beats her. What kind of love is that?

Love is connected with the deeds of a person. Yes, Allaah dislikes, but does He not forgive and love those who turn to Him and sincere repentance? YES.

Allaah also says in the Qur'aan, (translation) "Say: O My slaves (mankind) who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgives all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful..." (39:53-58).

Don't get it twisted.

Christians always try to differentiate between the God of the OT and NT. Then say Allaah is some "other" God. Have you read the Qur'aan without any bias or narrow-mindedness? The refutation to this entire post is in the Noble Qur'aan--God's Word.

Before I end this post, I have to mention some things that do not constitute love in the context in which you are judging.

All the following is according to your bible.

The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV)

First, I want to note that this is not Jesus (peace be upon him) according to the bible talking. This is someone else speaking on their own behalf. Why would God have to send someone who had done nothing wrong (Jesus) to die for the sins of humanity. Does not Ezekiel chapter 13 mention that one shall bear their own sin and punishment? Why must atonement be made because of our parents--Adaam and Eve (peace be upon them both)? Why did God punish Eve with the pangs and pain of childbirth as a punishment, instead of a blessing as Allaah tells us? Why the punishment?

It appears that the Christian concept of God is a grudge holder who will not flinch unless blood is shed.

And Allaah knows best.

 

[Zafran]

Zafran, we seem to be repeating ourselves, so I’ll give it just this one last shot and then move on. In your last two posts, what I’ve gathered is that you can accept that Christ dying on the cross is the ultimate act of mercy (presupposing, as you mention, the veracity of the event). The problem you have is how Christ’s sacrificial death equates to justice.

You keep contradicting yourself -

You said

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

you admit that christ dying on the cross is mercy - You said in above that "Justice" would send everyone to hell" - so the death of christ is not Just IN YOUR OWN WORDS - the bold - its pure mercy - thats what saves people not Justice which would take everyone to hell according to you.

Muslims believe that God shows mercy by saying "be" and it is no need for someone innocent to die. Which can easily be argued as being unjust.

There no point giving one shots if you have admited that christainty also suffers form the same "Problem" as thats how you see it.

You also have to define Justice so far you have given the above act eg "everyone goes to hell if God was Just as we dont measure up to his standards".

Mercy and Justice are two very different things - the definitly dont meet togather on the cross - I'll challenge any christan to defend the "Justice of the cross" with the above definition given by you - They cant because you have definied "Justice"

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard

and mercy

But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us

end of story.