The Character of God

[Zafran]

There were a lot of verses from the Bible thrown out there, but I think Zafran wrote a good summary of the main objection to an all-loving God according to the Bible: “Jesus loves you but you still burn in hell if you don’t see him as divine.” Again, the doctrine of hell is not unique to Christianity. I will explain how, on Christianity, an all-loving God can allow people to go to hell, but to be fair, I think it is also necessary for the Muslim to explain how Allah can be all-loving and allow people to go to hell.

God is all loving to the people that act ethically and upright.

Everybody has a choice - those who work hard for God deserve more then those who mock his people and laugh at his messengers and try to destroy God's messege

As I stated before the people that do evil openly are not the same as those who dont - Therefore they get different rewards.

Thats why there is a heaven and hell.

You get whats coming to you.

Muslims do not shy away from the wrath of God - its there and anybody can be at the end of it - so its the christian problem of "love for all approach" when in reality its only those who trust and believe Jesus is divine who get the love and the others get the wrath.

However as Muslims will say God knows best - we should do our best to stay away from the wrath of God and God has the final decision of showing Grace/ Mercy or Wrath.

You must have heard of the concept of the wrath of God and God fearing people. The whole conept of being God fearing was a big thing in christainty pity they forget about that.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

God, as a perfect being, must be all-loving. The Qur’an says, “On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love” (19:96). So the Qur’an assures us of God’s love for the God-fearing and the good-doers, but he has no love for unbelievers or sinners, as can be seen throughout the Qur’an: God loves not unbelievers, God loves not the impious and sinful, God loves not evildoers, God loves not the proud, God loves not transgressors. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be merited. The Muslim God loves only those who first love him. Thus, it seems to me that Muslims revere a God who is morally deficient. This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

Thoughts?

If you believe in hell then you must believe that those who are sentenced to it, have not earned God's love. Why would god sentence a person to eternal torture in hell, or even create hell in the first place, if he loves everyone?

Are you being hypocritical? Because this is coming out as nonsense.

Moreover, if we are here to attain God's love, why should we bother abstaining from sins if God will still love us?

 

[Zafran]

Yeah and I'll like to add when he says

This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

we know hes not talking about the OT - or even the NT of how Jesus pbuh treats the Jewish high priests.

 

[Ali_008]

Brother Imam and I quoted verses from the Bible which clearly mentioned that God doesn't love sinners. Bro Ben you read the posts but you ignored the point. In fact the Bible even attributed jealousy to God which is very "ungodly" and the verse follows with the same thing which we are discussing here that God is upset with the sinners.

Exodus 20 : 5-6
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

And did you not see the beauty of the verse of the Qur'an that I quoted of

Surah Nisa (Surah # 4) verse 147
What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe?

Allah is our creator and has no reason to hate his own creation unless the creation itself forgets its creator and starts following its own lusts. Allah cast out Satan because he considered himself to be above the word of God. Satan was asked to prostrate to Adam (peace be upon him) but Satan refused to do so on account of his arrogance. If I agree with you for the sake of argument that Allah loves all his creation then he even has to love Satan:enough!:.

More importantly, Allah is most just and will it be fair if a sinner and a pious saint both receive same amount of love from God. It is an implication of God's attribute of Justice that he doesn't love the sinners.

God is also Most Merciful and that is why he has given man a stated time so that he shall turn to God in it and prevent himself from the fire. Is it not God's mercy and love for his creation that no matter how much sin you do, he's ready to forgive you the moment you repent.

 

[Zafran]

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

Jon non of these verses and hadiths are talking about the "Holy spirit" or Gabriel (as) - its talking about the human soul. This is why if you havent studied Fiqh (Jurispudence) dont Quote hadiths as they have contexts - so does the Quran. Picking out verses of the Quran isnt good enough also as you clearly mixing up the verses. Without even knowing what they are talking about.

Muslims try to evade the fact that Jesus is the very Word of God by indicating that he is called God's Word solely because he was created directly by God's command, kun fayakun- "Be and it is." Firstly, the problem with this is that Jesus is not simply a by-product of God's command, but is the very Word of God to man.

No Jesus pbuh is like Adam pbuh - a creation of God simple as that - the rest is your own christain assumptions.

Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust then said to him: "Be!" -- and he was." (al-Qur'an, 3:59)

You cant just pick some verses of the Quran and leave others when they preety much speaks out against against you.

Finally you dont have authority in interpreating the Quran as the Quran says

[5.55] Your guide is only Allah, His Messenger, and the believers; those
who establish the prayer, pay their obligatory charity, and bow down (in
worship).

hope that clears it up.

peace

 

[Ali_008]

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying t..

Whoa, that was a long post and I had a terrible time reading it. Bro its good to see that you quoted the verses of the Glorious Qur'an and the Ahadeeth. Tell me now, which one of them said God is three or worship Jesus (peace be upon him) and the spirit or Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son of God. The Hadeeth which you quoted is a conspicuous example that the Spirit isn't to be worshipped (it said Lord of the Angels and the Spirit). Lord of the Spirit and not "Spirit is your Lord". I'm utterly amazed to see that you used that Hadeeth which is so clear and you say that the Spirit is God:exhausted.

And the verses just said that the Spirit was sent and I still can't get what you're trying to prove. The Spirit is a servant of Allah and was sent with orders from his master to strengthen the believers or give glad tidings to the believers. If a postman comes to you with a letter containing some good news like that you've got selected for your job, do you start working under that and for that postman as well. If someone in your office, reports to you that the boss anounced so and so,do you start considering that reporter to be your boss as well.

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29
You highlighted the latter part and missed the former. Allah made Adam (peace be upon him) from clay and he was standing in front of Allah lifeless, so Allah breathed into Adam himself to bring him to life.

Jesus (peace be upon him) was the word of Allah because he was a prophet and every Prophet is the word of Allah because none of them speak of their own or have their own doctrines that they profess. Adam, Noah, David, Solomon, John, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) all of them were word of God. They received inspiration from God and communicated it to their companions.

In the Bible itself, Jesus (peace be upon him) prophesized Muhammad (peace be upon him) and said that he will be the word of God

Gospel of John 16 : 12-15
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

:blind:

 

[Zafran]

Ali thats because he doesnt have a clue about Fiqh.

 

[جوري]

In fact unlike Islam, the prophets such as Abraham followed what is classified as a Patristic religion, which the Catholic Church holds to today. We look to what those Church Father who went before us had laid down in their writings and in their practices. Hence we look to both the Scriptures and Tradition, holding to that which was taught always, everywhere and by all.

Regards,
JP.

I am not particularly interested in this debate, but wished to comment on the above alone using the Quran:

[2:130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

[2:135] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

[2:140] Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!


with it I hope to demonstrate a couple of points.
1- Muslims in fact hold to the religion of Abraham the upright and attest that all the prophets came with the same message!
2- You can't say 'unlike Muslims' save for the regard that we don't worship Jesus or take him for God as going on some other path from that which was tread by all prophets.. your comment here in fact elicits that you are not aware of what Muslims believe or worship!
3- The above verses demonstrate that the term Christian or Jew is but an invention of the people, since the proper path to follow is that of Abraham the upright.. and that modern christianity whether puritinical or catholic is a far cry from what Abraham preached or taught or believed in, certainly he didn't take Jesus for a God nor his mother to be a mother of God, nor an archangel to be the spirit of God!

The religion of Abraham came out of the middle east and he was neither a latin nor a Greek speaker.. leaves one in a quandary over the origins of church beliefs, rituals and practices!

all the best

 

[Ben]

So Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving. I think that has some pretty dire theological ramifications (what now is the lynchpin for objective moral values?), but I’ve pressed the issue far enough.

However, I must question Allah’s mercy and justice; to me they seem to be diametrically opposed to one another. Allah simply pardons the sins of the saved without exacting any penalty or payment for their sins. So there remains sin in the universe that ultimately goes unpunished. But this is incompatible with absolute justice. Not every sin gets its due. Some wrongs are simply overlooked. And thus, if Allah is merciful, he cannot be absolutely just. His justice and his mercy are at loggerheads with each other. If he shows mercy, he can only do so at the expense of his justice.

The Muslim concept of salvation thus compromises Allah’s own holiness. Ironically, then, it turns out that not only is Allah not all-loving, but he is also not all-just. Therefore I cannot agree to it.

Regarding the scriptures quoted that purportedly show God is not all-loving: There are multitudes of other passages in the Scriptures that do affirm God’s love for sinners and unbelievers, and for every passage that you could name that says that God hates evil-doers, there are 10 that says that he loves them. So how do we understand this? Well, the way you understand it is that God loves the person, but He hates their sin (which is clearly not the case in Islam). But you say God doesn’t punish the sin, he punishes the sinner. Well, of course not because sin doesn’t exist in abstraction apart from sinners. But God loves the sinners, even as he punishes them because he is absolutely holy and just.

At the end of the day, I think the Muslim conception of God is rationally deficient because Allah is not a morally perfect and all-loving, all-just being.

 

[Imam]

So Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving.

Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving when dealing with sinners and jesus not all loving with those who reject the gospel.....
and supported that with scripture...

Allah’s mercy and justice; to me they seem to be diametrically opposed to one another. Allah simply pardons the sins of the saved without exacting any penalty or payment for their sins. So there remains sin in the universe that ultimately goes unpunished. .

What a double standard !!
The more you write the more you get me astonished!!

If those are the argument of atheist I won't wonder but words from a christian,that seems unbelievable......

God’s mercy and justice; seem not to be diametrically opposed to one another...

Ask the Bible:

Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..."


Jeremiah 36:3
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."


Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. ."


Micah 7:18
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."

Proverbs 21:3

"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Regarding the scriptures quoted that purportedly show God is not all-loving: There are multitudes of other passages in the Scriptures that do affirm God’s love for sinners and unbelievers. .

So which one to believe?

The answer just letting the acts of God himself Judge..

But God loves the sinners, even as he punishes them because he is absolutely holy and just. .

Still you miss the difference between God's justice and the claim of Godly unconditional love !!

We are not questioning his just which we are sure of,we question your claims of his supposed unconditional love which he refuted by his condition on salvation and his throwing FOR ETERNITY those whom you claim to be his all the way beloved !!!

At the end of the day, I think the Muslim conception of God is rationally deficient because Allah is not a morally perfect and all-loving, all-just being.

And At the end of the day I hope you have learned to read well the bible and reflect in order to know your position ,before rushing to an argument which ,under your line of reasoning, has to be applied to the biblical god as well.....

 

[Ali_008]

^^Bro Ben, no sin goes unpunished. every sin that a person does is registered in his book of deeds. There are two kinds of sins, one in which a person wrongs himself and the other in which he wrongs others.

The sin of wronging one's own self is between the sinner and his Lord and if you analyse it is ungratefulness to Allah that the sinner did something which Allah forbade him to do. We are all Allah's creation, the basic idea of sin lies in this fact. Our body and everything that we have is not ours but given by God to us to see how we deal with it. So when a person wrongs himself, he does it against the majesty of Allah, though Allah is free of all wants. Wronging one's own self is going against Allah because you don't have a right to do that as you are God's property not your own and here you need to ask for God's forgiveness only for misusing his trust. In the rage of sexual satisfaction, if a person commits masturbation, it will be a sin against one's own soul and God's majesty and if he later repents and asks for Allah's forgiveness then Allah is Ar-Rahim, the Most-Merciful, At-Tawwaab - The Acceptor of Repentance and Al-Ghaffaar - The Oft-forgiving. So the right to forgive or reject lies with Allah alone and if he's ready to forgive his slave then whats wrong with it.

The other sin is more severe in nature and hence has more complications with it. Wronging others. By this the person wrongs himself, a brother of his and so the deed is doubly presented in front of his Lord. In sexual rage, if a person commits rape then his forgiveness doesn't lie with his Lord alone but also with the victim. Before seeking forgiveness from Allah he has to seek forgiveness from the victim.

There's a Hadeeth which state that on the Day of Judgment, there will be a man who will be forgiven and granted Paradise and he'll be walking towards Paradise and at its gate he'll find the people who he wronged in this world waiting for him. And he will not be able to enter Paradise until he convinces each and every one of them.

So every sin is accounted and its upon the gravity of the sin and the Lord's mercy whether it gets punished or forgiven (thanks to repentance).

And I'm grieved you write that the Qur'anic idea of God is deficient. Well the Qur'an is very clear about what Allah likes and hates. Its the Bible which contradicts itself. You counted and said that there's 10 places where God says that he hates the sinners in the Bible and you are also saying that God loves the sinners, so there's clear contradiction. Its neither Allah nor the Qur'an which is deficient rather its the Bible which is self-contradictory.

 

[Zafran]

Ben dont Ignore other posters - Using double standards will just you get you into a mess - Even you believe in the idea of God fearing and the wrath of God. Lets not forget that all people who reject christ as there saviour go to hell - not very loving - oh wait maybe thats showing the wrath of God which God also has with the mercy and love.

We Muslims believe in both do you?

peace

 

[Ben]

Ali_008, first thank you responding in a respectful manner and in the spirit of dialogue—it’s refreshing to see a post from you. Since you have taken the time to actually defend the objections I’ve raised and haven’t simply gone on the offensive, I will specifically take the time to respond to you.

From what I understand, all of our sins are recorded in a book of deeds. I’m assuming that all of our good works are also recorded in this book. Got no problem with that…

So let’s say it’s judgment day and this book of deeds is pulled out for each person and the balance is read. If the balance weighs heavy with good deeds, then you’ve pleased Allah and you are assured salvation. This basic idea is correct, isn’t it?

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

Maybe an example would also be helpful. Suppose you get a speeding ticket, and you decide to take it to court. You go to the court and explain to the judge, “Judge, you see I needed to get home quickly because this crazy guy Ben has been posting on IslamicBoard.com and I needed to respond to some of his objections.” The judge, who happens to know that you’re a pretty good guy, says, “Well, Ali, I know you’re a pretty swell guy. You give to charity and you treat your family well, so I’m going to let you off the hook. You’re free to go.” In this case, we can say that the judge was merciful, but he was not just. To be just, there must be a punishment for breaking the speed limit.

Very similarly, this is my confusion with Allah—I’m having a hard time reconciling his mercy and his justice.

I’ll try to clear up your Biblical confusions in my next post.

 

[Ben]

Just a general comment before I begin—I have been a member of this website for about a week now. When I joined I knew that we’d be discussing sensitive issues, as our beliefs are held near and dear to us. However, I must say that I am shocked at the lack of respect and frankly hostile environment created by a select few. If any of us are to get anything out of this discussion, we must keep our emotions in check.

Also, if you happen to notice, if I write something, I’ll get a bunch of responses, which is fine. I realize this is Islamicboard.com, not Christianboard.com (if such a website exists). But you’ve got to realize that I can’t take the time to respond to every single verse or idea that is flagged as a contradiction. I’ll read your thoughts, and I’ll respond to the most compelling arguments. I hope you understand. Overall, there seem to be two general objections that have raised against the God of the Bible, 1) an all-loving God allowing someone to go to hell and 2) humanity’s need for atonement.

I’ve already laid out how an all-loving God can allow someone to go to hell (see page 2), which is basically that if someone rejects Christ’s atonement for sins, God, being all-just, allows that person to condemn him or her self. I realize this is a challenging idea to accept and to accept it would be to accept Christianity. I guess the best example I can think of is when we refer to “love-hate relationships.” Maybe you have a parent who you love, but that parent abuses alcohol. You love the parent, but you hate the alcohol addiction. In the same way, God love the sinner but hates the sin.

Regarding atonement, you might think that, as Imam has said, “the cross should be a living example of Biblical God's injustice.” Again, to accept Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of humanity is to accept Christianity, but I want to point out that Christians see this not as injustice, but as God’s ultimate gift to mankind. To think of this as injustice is to completely misunderstand the Christian doctrine of salvation. God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

 

[Jon Paul]

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying that God is three. Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

Secondly, the fact is that the Quran itself teaches that Allah is tri-personal in some sense since it views God's Word and His Spirit as entities that are both distinct from Allah and yet at the same time eternal and inseparable from him. For instance, God's Spirit is personal as well as the instrument through which God grants life to man and strengthens believers:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29

Man was given life by God's Spirit, implying that the Spirit is the source of life.

"She (Mary) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent Our Spirit (ruh), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." S. 19:17

God's Spirit assumes the form of a man and is described with masculine pronouns. This indicates that the Spirit is not just some force, but is a divine personality.

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet, only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion one Muslim scholar comes to in his footnote. Yusuf Ali notes:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)

Hence, the Spirit is of the divine essence, is incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, all qualities that are true of God.

This also refutes the Muslim claim that the Spirit of God is the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine. In fact, both the Quran and hadiths clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

The Quran also describes the Word of God as being personal and as having a dual aspect to it.

"Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones." S. 3:39 Shakir

John is to bear witness to a Word from God, namely Jesus the Christ. Here, Jesus is the one who is the Word from God. The fact that he is a Word from God implies preexistence, that Jesus preexisted as God's Word. This point is brought out more clearly in the two following passages:

"(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." S. 3:45 Pickthall

According to this passage God's Word is not a mere abstraction but rather a person. This is due to the fact that the Word of God is given a personal name, Jesus. This implies that the Muslim argument that Jesus is only a by-product of God's creative command cannot be sustained. Hence, according to this one passage the Word of God is a person who shall be known as Jesus, implying that Christ is the personal Word of God come down from heaven.

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity': desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." Y. Ali

Jesus is both the Word of God, not just a word from him, given to Mary and a spirit that proceeds from God himself. We discover that in one sense the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus and yet in other places it affirms that he is the divine preexistent Word and Spirit from God.

Muslims try to evade the fact that Jesus is the very Word of God by indicating that he is called God's Word solely because he was created directly by God's command, kun fayakun- "Be and it is." Firstly, the problem with this is that Jesus is not simply a by-product of God's command, but is the very Word of God to man. This is based primarily on the fact that the Quran clearly teaches that the Word of God is personal and became man in the person of Jesus.

Secondly, if it were true that Jesus is God's word solely because he was created by the command of God then we would expect to find Adam called the Word of God since he was also created by God's command according to the Quran (cf. S. 3:59). Yet, neither Adam nor anyone else is ever called the Word of God.

This implies that the Quran acknowledges that the eternal Word of God became flesh, two aspects (eternal - according to his Divinity and finite - according to His human nature) united in one Person.

In fact, not only is Christ eternal and finite at the same time, the Quran itself is believed by Muslims to be the eternal speech of God in book form. This would imply that the Quran also has a dual aspect, one eternal and one finite. Yusuf K. Ibish, in an article entitled "The Muslim Lives by the Quran," writes:

I have not yet come across a western man who understands what the Quran is. It is not a book in the ordinary sense, nor is it comparable to the Bible, either the Old or New Testaments. It is an expression of Divine Will. If you want to compare it with anything in Christianity, you must compare it with Christ Himself. Christ was an expression of the Divine among men, the revelation of the Divine Will. That is what the Quran is. If you want a comparison for the role of Muhammad, the better one in that particular respect would be Mary. Muhammad was the vehicle of the Divine, as she was the vehicle... There are western orientalists who have devoted their life to the study of the Quran, its text, the analysis of its words, discovering that this word is Abyssinian, that word is Greek by origin... But all this is immaterial. The Quran was divinely inspired, then it was compiled, and what we have now is the expression of God's Will among men. That is the important point. (Charris Waddy, The Muslim Mind [New York: Longman, 1976], p.14)

Therefore in light of the preceding factors, Muslims have no case against the Trinity or the Incarnation since they themselves must affirm that Allah is somehow triune as well as affirming that the Quran, like Christ, is both eternal and finite at the same time.

Hence, if Christians are blasphemers for believing that God is a triune Being or for believing that Jesus is both eternal and finite at the same time, then Muslims themselves are unbelievers. Muslims either believe that there are three distinct eternal beings, implying that there are three Gods or must admit that God is a multi-personal Being.

Regards,
JP.

I must apologise here. I was in a rush and forgot to post the link for this article and put it in to show it is not my own article. I was fairly warned by a Moderator and duly apologise for my error here. This was my source for the section I posted: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/comslam.htm

I posted this to see what Muslims would make off it. Sadly I am juggling alot of discussions right now on various forums, so I wont be able to address this thread again just quite yet! Be patient please I shall get around to it soon.

Regards,
JP.

 

[جوري]

I am not particularly interested in your objections or your conclusions since I think your very premise is faulty and doesn't follow from logic rather very loose associations. Thus, I am only going to present the Islamic view of God from which you or others can draw whatever conclusions..

"I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him."
[Hadith Qudsi]

"Abu Huraira (radiAllahu anhu) reported Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa salam) as saying that Allah thus stated:
I live in the thought of My servant as he thinks of Me and with him as he calls Me.."
[Sahih Muslim, 35:6495]


"And your Lord says: Pray unto me: and I will hear your prayer" (Quran 40:60), "Call upon your Lord Humbly and in secret" (Quran 7:55),
"When My servants question thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me" (Quran 2:186), "Is not He (best) who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and who relieves its suffering." (Quran 27:62)


The Mercy of Allah (S.W.T.)

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(Friday speech was delivered by Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center of Raleigh, N.C., on December 4, 1987)

Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His book which is with Him on His throne, "My mercy has overcome My anger.""


Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "Allah has divided mercy into one hundred parts, and He kept ninety-nine parts with Him and sent down one part on the earth, and because of that, one single part. His creatures are merciful to each other, so that even the mare lifts up its hoof away from its baby animal, so that she would not trample on it."



Imam Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "When Allah created the heavens and the earth, he created one hundred mercies, each one can cover what is between the earth and the heaven. He allocated to the earth only one, with which the mother is compassionate with her child; the beast and the bird are compassionate with their babies. When the Day of Judgment comes, Allah will complete His mercy."


Allah (S.W.T.) has told us that from His names are "Arrahman Arrahim" the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. He also told us in His Book about Himself, so He said in surat Al-An’am, (verse 54), what can be translated as, "…Your Lord has written mercy for Himself…"
He (S.W.T.) also said about His mercy in surat Al-‘Araf, (verse 156), what can be translated as, "…And My mercy embraces all things…"
These verses and many ahadith that talk about the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.), its extent, and its greatness, constitute an important aspect about the divine reality in the mind of the Muslim. It is a beautiful and reassuring concept that manifests itself in the merciful relationship between Allah (S.W.T.) and His servants.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested in all of His creatures in this universe. This is especially in the lives of human beings; it is of a magnitude that we can not confine or measure, but we can point to some of mercies, so that we can be remind, and reflect on many others aspects of Allah’s immense mercy.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifested itself in man at the point of His creation, and in making man better than many other creatures. Allah (S.W.T.) says when He talks about man in surat Al-Isra’, (verse 70), what can be translated as, "…And We have preferred them (human being) above many of those whom We have created with a marked preferment."
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in His subjecting what is in this universe for man’s use. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Jathiyah, (verse 13), what can be translated as, "And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favor and kindness from Him."
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in what Allah (S.W.T.) in stilled in man. Byway of abilities to acquire knowledge and science and gave him the mind that can lead him to different sciences.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself for man. When Allah (S.W.T.) made man the khalifah on earth, He did not leave him without guidance, but rather He sent many messengers to guide him to the straight path, especially the comprehensive and complete Islamic legislation, that would keep him away from hardship and misery.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in His overlooking the sins of the sinner when he unknowingly commits the sin then repents. Allah’s mercy is even beyond that; Allah (S.W.T.) changes the sins of the sinner, after his sincere repentance followed by righteous deeds, to good deeds (hasanat). Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Furqan, (verse 70), what can be translated as, "…Those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds…" All this is to prevent the sinners from feeling hopeless of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.).
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested when Allah (S.W.T.) counts the sin of the sinner as one sin. The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested further when Allah (S.W.T.) rewards the righteous doer on his good deed ten times what his good deed is worth and Allah (S.W.T.) multiplies his reward even more than ten times to whom He wants from His servants. Imam Buhkari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If someone intends to do a good deed and he dose not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed; and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times. And If someone intends to do a bad deed and he dose not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intends to do a bad deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him one bad deed." Also, Allah (S.W.T.) erases the sin with the good deed. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Huod, (verse 114), what can be translated as, "…Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds…"
Also, the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is the reason that Allah (S.W.T.) sends His believers to Paradise on the Day of Judgment. The prophet (S.A.W.) said: "None of you will enter Paradise with his deeds", They said: "Not even you, oh messenger of Allah?!", He said: "Not even me unless Allah bestows His mercy upon me."
The prophet (S.A.W.) illustrates to us the greatness of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) with His servants in many ahadith:
Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that, "Some sabi (war prisoners, children and woman only) were brought before the prophet (S.A.W.) and behold, a woman amongst them, her chest was full of milk, and she found her baby boy amongst the captives, she took him over her chest and nursed him. The prophet said to his companions, "Do you think that this lady would throw her baby boy in the fire?" They replied, "No, if she has the power not to throw him in the fire." The prophet said, "Allah is more merciful to His servants than this lady to her son."
Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "If a disbeliever knows of all the mercy which is in the hand of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise…"
The prophet (S.A.W.) made utmost effort to clarify the reality of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) with His servants so that Muslims will be merciful among one another and be merciful with others, and know that this mercy is the way to gain the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.). Imam Abu Dawud, At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "The merciful people will have mercy bestowed upon them by Allah (S.W.T.). Be merciful with those on earth, so He who in the heaven (Allah) will have mercy on you." Imam Bukhari, Muslim and At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Allah will not have mercy on the one who does not have mercy on people."
The prophet (S.A.W.) clarified to us that snatching mercy from the heart of a person is evidence of his unkindness. Imam Abu Dawud and At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Allah does not snatch mercy except from the unkind person"
The prophet (S.A.W.) taught us that mercy is not to be with man only but it is to be extended to include animals that Allah (S.W.T.) subjected to man to eat, so we should be kind to the animal when we slaughter it, and we should not torture it. Imam Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "…And if you slaughter, slaughter well. Let each one of you sharpen his blade and let him spare suffering to the animal he slaughters."
The prophet (S.A.W.) mentioned to us that Allah (S.W.T.) forgave a sinning man, and a fornicating woman for their mercy and kindness with a thirsty dog, so they gave it water to drink. Imam Bukhari and Muslim report both stories.
Imam Abu Dawud and Ahmad reported that while the companions were once travelling with the prophet (S.A.W.), they noticed a bird that had two chicks, so they took away the two chicks, then the bird came and started to flap its wings. When the prophet (S.A.W.) came back, he asked: "Who has deprived this (bird) of its chicks? Return its chicks to it." Afterwards the prophet (S.A.W.) saw an ant colony had been burnt by some of his companions, he said: "Who has burnt this?" They replied, we did. Then he said: "No one has the right to torture with fire except the One who created the fire."
And we ask that Allah the Most Merciful, bestow His favors and mercy on us in this life and the next. Ameen
http://islam1.org/iar/imam/archives/1987/12/04/the_mercy_of_allah_swt.php


Allah swt isn't love, but he is loving, merciful, and above all Just...

what is the point of a loving god that throws children and others into hell for not believing that he self-immolated? where is the love in that?..

__________________

in closure, I don't have all that much time to dedicate to this thread.. but reasonable discerning people who don't yield to Narnia like fairy tales to ascribe the 'Character of God' have a more recondite understanding of our being and our duties..


all the best..

 

[Zafran]

Ben you just contradicated youself - look

Regarding atonement, you might think that, as Imam has said, “the cross should be a living example of Biblical God's injustice.” Again, to accept Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of humanity is to accept Christianity, but I want to point out that Christians see this not as injustice, but as God’s ultimate gift to mankind. To think of this as injustice is to completely misunderstand the Christian doctrine of salvation. God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

So according to You God overides sin by the sacrifce of christ - becasue of mercy not Justice

Justice would let everyone go to hell (according to you) as you said

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard

Yet God will save the people according to you through mercy - in your beliefs by the death of christ and NOT Justice

But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.[/B]

so do you see the contradictions - You yourself rely on the mercy of God and not justice as Justice would mean nobody is saved as we are all sinners (according to you)

 

[Zafran]

Ali_008, first thank you responding in a respectful manner and in the spirit of dialogue—it’s refreshing to see a post from you. Since you have taken the time to actually defend the objections I’ve raised and haven’t simply gone on the offensive, I will specifically take the time to respond to you.

From what I understand, all of our sins are recorded in a book of deeds. I’m assuming that all of our good works are also recorded in this book. Got no problem with that…

So let’s say it’s judgment day and this book of deeds is pulled out for each person and the balance is read. If the balance weighs heavy with good deeds, then you’ve pleased Allah and you are assured salvation. This basic idea is correct, isn’t it?

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

Maybe an example would also be helpful. Suppose you get a speeding ticket, and you decide to take it to court. You go to the court and explain to the judge, “Judge, you see I needed to get home quickly because this crazy guy Ben has been posting on IslamicBoard.com and I needed to respond to some of his objections.” The judge, who happens to know that you’re a pretty good guy, says, “Well, Ali, I know you’re a pretty swell guy. You give to charity and you treat your family well, so I’m going to let you off the hook. You’re free to go.” In this case, we can say that the judge was merciful, but he was not just. To be just, there must be a punishment for breaking the speed limit.

Very similarly, this is my confusion with Allah—I’m having a hard time reconciling his mercy and his justice.

I’ll try to clear up your Biblical confusions in my next post.

Now You rely on mercy and NOT Justice as you yourself showed in your own previous post.

so you say this for Islam

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

But then for your beliefs you say

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

How has the death of christ been Just - one man dying for the whole world - thats not justice - nobody thinks that - the christains instead see it as mercy (as you said) - you can say that Jesus's death is enough to wipe out sins - who says??? - Justice?? or God's grace and mercy.

Just like Allah swt can wipe out sins for the sincere people - so does your own religion - according to you - by the death of christ - the ultimate mercy act NOT justice as Justice would banish everyone to hell.


ofcourse Muslims question the death of christ and the christain view.

 

[Ali_008]

^^Brother Ben, Zafran and Gossamer skye have already laid down some really logical points down there and I'll just make an addition to it. I'm glad that my posts came handy and in responding here, I'm just trying to follow the Qur'an as it says in

Surah An-Nahl (Surah # 16) verse 125:
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Sister, Gossamer skye brought a great number of verses and Ahadeeth that I was thinking of posting but she got a lot more than my thoughts.

I'm sure you must have heard the term "unconditional love". For me unconditional love isn't a seperate type/kind of love. I guess love is unconditional from the root itself. The love you have for anyone be it your mom, dad, siblings, friends or even pets, it is unconditional. You know that they are not perfect but you still love them and you also get upset when they do something that hurts you. At the time when they did something wrong and they acknowledge it and genuinely want to earn your pleasure, would you not forgive that person for having done that act? They realise their mistake and are very sorry for it. Will you just hold a grudge against that person till his or your last breath? For a kind and merciful person, just the guilt which the culprit has now is enough for him to forgive the mistake and for somebody who's not so merciful, the culprit might have to do something to compensate the pain he caused. In the given example, it could be a gift, a box of chocolates, a bear hug, a long drive or even something as simple as the two words "I'm sorry". Allah Subhaanahu Wa Taala isn't just merciful or very merciful, he's the most Merciful. Nobody is more kind than him. For him just the fact that his slave acknowledges his sin is enough. With regard to the amount of pleasure Allah has when a slave of his repents is beautifully explained in the following Hadeeth:

Ibn Mas'ud (RadhiAllahu Anhu) narrated that the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: “Indeed, Allah is more happy with the repentance of His slave than a man who stops in a barren, desolate land; with him he has his riding animal. He then goes to sleep. When he wakes up, [he realizes that] his mount is gone. He searches for it until he is on the verge of dying. He then says, ‘I will return to the place wherein I lost it, and I will die there.’ He went to that place, and he was then overcome by sleep. When he woke up, his mount was [standing] right beside his head: on it was his food, his drink, his provisions, and the things he neded. Allah is more happy with the repentance of his believing slave than the aforementioned man when he finds his mount and his provisions.” [al-Bukhaari: 6308 ; Muslim: 2744]

That gives a beautiful explanation of the attribute of mercy of Allah.

Now talking about Justice, again Gossamer skye quoted verses that say how good deeds erase the evil deeds. I'll quote just one of them here and thats

Surah Hood (Surah # 11) verse 114
For those things, that are good remove those that are evil.

There's also a hadeeth that goes like

A man said to the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Alayhi Wasallam), ‘Give me some advice’. ‘Fear God,’ he replied, ‘wherever you may be.’ ‘Give me more’, he said. ‘Follow a sin with a good deed,’ he replied, ‘and you will erase it’. ‘Give me more’, the man said, and he replied, ‘When you deal with people, do so with goodness of character’.

So a sin remains a sin in the book of deeds until it gets replaced by a good deed. This shows us how much Allah loves us and is just to us as well. I never said that just having the regret of commiting a sin earns you forgiveness. The scholars have laid down the conditions for repentance to be accepted and they are :

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
4. If it relates to the rights of another person, then to Return the rights or property to the one who was wronged.

If a person regrets a sin after commiting it but keeps on going back to it then his repentance cannot be called sincere.

I'll give you a basic example. Suppose there's an employee in an office who comes drunk to work and is always late and is very rude in dealing with people and receives warnings on regular basis and has even got suspended quite a few times but is still not fired just because he's in a contract with the organization. One fine day, all of a sudden this worker realises his mistake gives up drinking, goes to work on time, apologises to everyone he misbehaved with and works efficiently not just for a day but it becomes a habit of his and he completely changes. Do you think his co-workers would still hate him? Will he get suspended ever again? Rather, in the future when he makes a mistake it'll be overlooked by all because they know that he has changed and the mistake must have been unintentional.

Thats the magic of righteous deeds. They overpower the sins and evil of the past and vanish it.

Therefore,
Allah is Most Merciful because he forgives all sins.
Allah is Most Just because he forgives his slave only when the slave compensates the evil he's done with righteousness and piety.

---------------------------------------
And I'm also waiting for Jon Paul's response.

 

[alcurad]

Jon Paul, note that in every instance the word (Ruh) is mentioned in the qur'an, many translate it as 'spirit/soul' although it never means that, rather (Ruh) refers to the person known as archangel Gabriel.