The Evidence that the Koran is the Word of God

[InToTheRain]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions...

I think these questions occur naturally and it did so to me also. After all true conviction comes from experience and not theory which is left in the realms of possibility.

I recommend you read this book as it is a translation of Imam Ghazali(RA)'s book by a Christian author.
Al-Ghazali's Deliverance from Error and Other Works: Amazon.co.uk: Al-Munqidh min Al-Dalal, Imam Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, R.J. McCarthy: Books

It's an autobiography in which Imam Ghazali(RA) poses many philosophical questions and answers. Imam Ghazali(RA) himself was critical thinker of everything including Islam from the outset as he read the sayings of Mohammad(SAW):
“Each child is born in a state of Fitrah (Islam). Then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian.” (Saheeh al-Bukhari)

So to him it was about returning back to the state of the Fitrah and not simply following those around him. As he says, he drove into the depths of other ways of life like a roaring lion and not a cautious coward.

I also think this is relevant to the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gjp3hCCTwc


My thoughts on your questions:

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.

He allowed it to be corrupted as he allows those who disobey him to practice their free will on Earth. If there remains no one among the people to worship Allah Most High then that civilisation is distroyed just like the people of Nuh(AS) and Lot(AS). Isa(AS) had true disciples who were still guiding mankind for example the Gospel of Barnabas. Also We see evidence of the existence of the true message of Isa(AS) during the time of Mohammad(SAW) because it was a Preists that guided one of his companions named Salman al Farsi(RA) towards Mohammad :saws: as they spoke of the imminent arrival of a new Massenger of God in Madinah. It is an amazing story and exemplary story of a Seeker Going from fire worshipping to Christianity and Islam!
THE STORY OF SALMAN AL FARSI (RA) AND HIS AMAZING QUEST FOR KNOWLEDGE | Rashadi Foundation


2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.

Allah Most High is aware of everything; Him allowing certain events to occur doesn't necessarily mean He didn't see it coming.

3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.

Shariah changes with time. Prophets are those that repeat the message of the previous Massenger of God and Massengers are those that come with new Laws. It doesn't show that God changes, but rather our way of life or circumstances change and God makes laws to allow us to adapt to those changes while keeping our faith intact for our own benefit.

4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying Mohammad(SAW) made a mistake whilst conveying the Message? As Muslims we know this is not possible because God himself supervises His Prophets and Massengers. He has chosen them to represant Him. Revelations only come to prophets and massengers of God. A Prophet is one who repeats the message of the Last Massenger that came and a Massenger is a prophet that comes with New Shariah. However later on it is corrupted by man who are not Chosen by God.

If you are saying what if it was corrupted after the Death of Mohammad(SAW) then it would have been obvious as we would have had multiple versions of the Qur'an due to the dispute over what should be contained in it.


Regards

 

[ardianto]

I enjoy talking with you Ardi. I agree with you that most people won't take the lift and question whether it is safe. We just take it on good faith that the people who certified the lift safe for use have done the stress testing and done their job with integrity. But if there are any doubts, there is a certificate in the lift that tells you when the testing was done, and done by whom. If the company that did the testing has a history of lift accidents, then you might not want to put your faith in their lift. If the company that tested the lift is reliable, then you can reasonably believe that nothing will happen to you even if you take the lift everyday... i think that is how we should approach matters of faith and religion. (I'm not suggesting that islam is like a bad company, this is just an example)

my story is quite similar to yours. I was born into a christian family and for most part of my life I considered myself a christian. until I encountered Jesus Christ myself...and I realised that there is no such thing as a born-christian. even as a christian for many years, I still ask or encounter critical questions about my own faith...e.g. if God is good why does he allow suffering? etc. and it is such questions that cause me to search for answers and strengthen my faith..

One day when I drove my car I saw an accident that happened on a car with type that same as mine. But I didn't think '"Oh no! my car is unsafe! I should replace it with other type!". I didn't think like this because from my experience in driving my car everyday, I knew that my car was safe if I drove it in safe way. But if I drove it in dangerous way, very possible I would get accident". The problem lies not on the car, but on the driver.

So, is Islam safe?. Yes, if Muslims follow Islam in the correct understanding. But if Muslims follow Islam in incorrect understanding?. ....... Suicide bombing, killing innocent people, oppression, .... just few example of what could be done by Muslims who follow Islam with incorrect understanding.

So, the problem with Islam does not lies on Islam itself, but lies on Muslims. If the problem lies on Islam, must be every Muslim would be radical.

The biggest threat that faced by Muslim world nowaday is radicalism, and the worst habit of Muslims is use Islam as justification. The problem with Islam happen because combination of these two things. Those radical do action that actually against Islamic values, but they quote Qur'an and hadith to make their action look justified by Islam.

I am glad to discuss with you, Dave.

 

[ardianto]

I am not a Muslim who regard Qur'an as book of science and claim 'scientific miracle' in it as evidence that Qur'an is the word of Allah.

For me, Qur'an is a holy book that become my guidance of life. Then, how do I know that Qur'an is the Word of Allah?. I know it when I recite Qur'an because I can feel it with my heart.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

What would you say to a person who after your thread says -"I have the exact same experience as you. I've read many religious text but none spoke so personally and deeply as ________ (insert your choice of religious text)"

I don't doubt the reality of your experience with the Koran...and personally I admire your effort to read all those text...sometimes I even fall asleep while reading the bible at bedtime :embarrass

but i think a skeptic would say that the Koran is only experientially real to you. It is your personal preference and not necessarilty objectively true. Someone might pick up the Koran and have a completely different experience from you.

May God Bless you with inner peace and harmony Daveyats. I believe you are a true seeker.


If someone has had the same experience as I when reading a text, or admiring the sunset, or looking in wonder at the miracle of a newborn child, or feeling awe before the vastness and intricacy of Creation, or feeling delighted at the simple set of instructions, that when iterated, produces a beautiful tree... if someone has felt this transcendence, then I cannot doubt that it comes from God.


We all have an inner compass that calls us to Him. This is something that the English language obscures, but that is very clear in the Arabic. In English we talk of “not believing” something. Belief is something, apparently, that we can take on, or take off. It can be something instilled in us by the people around us. Like the tooth fairy. But it is something that we can dispose of, like realizing that the tooth fairy is just a pretty story for children.


But in the Qur'an, we learn that we have a Heart. And that it can be covered. The Heart is always there, but it can be covered over. The root k-f-r captures this idea very well. The verb kafara means: to cover, conceal, hide... and to be ungrateful. We can choose to cover our Hearts. He Gave us this possibility. Then we become a person who covers his/her Heart. We become the active participle of the verb (it's an active choice...): kaafir. It is the ultimate ingratitude to our Creator.


The opposite of one who covers, is one who struggles to surrender him/herself to God. It is one who seeks God. How do we seek? With our minds that He Gave us (how many times in the Qur'an God exhorts us to use our reason!). With our Hearts that He Gave us.


We seek God, and then we surrender our Selves to Him. And in so doing, we find inner peace and harmony. We find a safe harbour. (Smile) Of course, this struggle is a continuous one in this life. We have things we need to learn in this life, and the struggle to know God's Will and submit to it (which is actually what is best for us, if only we realized it...), is how we are going to learn these things, I believe.


What things? Well, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, kindness... but also strength, self-restraint, self-sufficiency... all the divine qualities (in Islam, we talk of the 99 Names of God). We need to learn these, I believe, so that we may receive these from him.


I suspect, Daveyats, that you have read the Narnia books by C.S. Lewis? In The Last Battle, you have the dwarfs who are so convinced that they are in a smelly, dark stable, that they cannot see the wonders of Paradise. They are completely sense-less to the Reality around them: they can't taste the wonderful food, nor see the beauties of the world around them,nor hear anything except those things they'd expect in the stable they had formerly been in...


I believe that if we want to be able to receive God's Mercy (for instance), we need to have developed a way to sense this quality, by having a little bit of it ourselves. The more mercy we have learnt how to give, the more we are able to receive it. And conversely... pity the poor soul who had smothered mercy within him/herself. How can he/she be able to even sense His Beautiful Mercy and Compassion?


The root s-l-m yields the verb aslama,and its active participle muslim (we choose and struggle with this actively!).


We have two poles in our lives, it seems to me. We can open our Hearts to Him, or we can cover our Hearts. And it seems to me that there is a little of both in us all.That we live somewhere on a spectrum: some closer to being open,others closer to being covered. And that we move back and forth upon this line during our lives. The more we struggle, the closer to perfect Islam (peace/surrender/harmony/security) we become. And the more we cover our Hearts, the closer to the ultimate pain/loneliness/dissonance/utter loss we become. Hell, if you will.


If you have felt God's immanence, then I believe you. God, after all, can speak to us how He Wishes. And Creation is an expression of His Will. It seems to me that we ought to be able to sense this Will everywhere (if we open our Hearts to seeing it).


Might a skeptic have problems with this? Well, I imagine so! Qualities are not quantities. Science deals in the quantitative. It's a great tool, but that's all it is: a tool.And as the saying goes: if the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails... The scientific method is a way of exploring the universe. And it's a useful method (I use it professionally). But it cannot be used to explore the qualitative.How do you measure the beauty of a rainbow? A child's smile? A symphony? How do you quantify the feeling when your voice blends into a choir? When you smell the sea you have not been near for years?When someone touches you with compassion?


How can you quantify the infinite?


Finally, you stated that someone else might have a different experience with the Qur'an than myself. Well,of course. As the Classical thinkers pointed out: the Qur'an is the mirror of the soul. God Tells us that the Qur'an is a Guide… for those who are looking for Him (Al-Baqarah 2). But if I'm not looking for God, it's not going to mean much to me: my Heart is covered, and I cannot sense Him (al-Baqarah 6-7). If I'm not looking for Him, He'll make my Heart impervious to His Guidance (we couldn't be impervious, if He didn't Give us the choice. Really, all the freedom we have, comes from His Active Support of our choice. If I choose not to find Him, He'll Give me that choice; I won't find Him!).


If I read the Qur'an looking to find something to justify my bad behaviour, or to hit someone with in an argument, or to impress someone with... whatever...I'm not using it for what it was designed.


But if I open the Qur'an looking for how I, myself, can come to some understanding of who/what God IS and find out how I, myself, can reach Him... He Will Actively Support me in my choice. I will find Him.

 

[Ahmad H]

If you believe that the text of the Torah wasn't changed, and is what Allah revealed, then the implications of that must be considered carefully, as the Torah as it stands says that Nuh alyhissalaam became drunken, and that Lut alayhissalaam committed incest (we seek Allah's refuge from such words or beliefs).

Very true. I overlooked that. Ibn Abbas' statement then must have had some other meaning to it. Jazakallah for the clarification.

 

[Futuwwa]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions.

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

First of all, this is a straw man. The Islamic position is not that there once was a "true" uncorrupted Bible that then got corrupted. The Quran uses the word "injil" (evangelion, gospel) to refer to Jesus's message and the sum total of the revelation he got, not to any actual physical book that has ever been compiled in any form.

Point 4 would still be valid if one would change the question, more generally, to why God would allow the message of earlier prophets to be lost or distorted but not allow that of Muhammed. Well, Muhammed was the last prophet, so God had to promise that his message would be preserved. There wouldn't be any later prophet to lead back humanity to the straight path if Muhammed's message would end up being lost.

 

[daveyats]

No... there are many versions of the bible - and I am not referring to translations.

Even the versions have been translated into many languages so you need to work out that when I say "versions" I do mean "versions".

For example, which version do you follow? KJV? NIV? which one? pick any from these "versions" and you will also find them "translated" into other languages.

King James Version (KJV)
New International Version (NIV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
New King James Version (NKJV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
New Century Version (NCV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Good News Bible (GNB) / Today’s English Version (TEV)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
New English Translation (NET)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God’s Word Translation (GW)
Common English Bible (CEB)
New International Readers Version (NIrV)
Easy-To-Read Version (ERV)
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Bible in Basic English (BBE)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
World English Bible (WEB)
Revised English Bible (REB)
Jerusalem Bible (JB)
New American Bible (NAB)
The Living Bible (TLB)
The Message (MSG)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
The Bishops' Bible
Douay-Rheims Version (DRV)
Tyndale Bible
Geneva Bible

NOTE: A "version" is not a "translation", dig?




No I wouldn't - look, it's really simple - the Torah was literally burned into the rock and handed to Moses pbuh - what did the Jews do to it? Made mince pies out of it.

No holy book has ever been given the promise of God that HE will protect it from corruption except for the Quran.

Scimi

I think you have a bad case of misunderstanding. these are different versions of english translations. Just like the 9 different versions of english translations of the Koran. there are no english equivalents for certain words and expressions in other languages. add to the mix literary styles, new information from archeology...you see why one book can be translated so many ways.

the 10 commandments were carved onto stone tablets not the torah. moses broke them and they were carved again.
it would have taken a hell lot of stone tablets and carving to inscribe the torah on stones lol!

 

[daveyats]

First of all, this is a straw man. The Islamic position is not that there once was a "true" uncorrupted Bible that then got corrupted. The Quran uses the word "injil" (evangelion, gospel) to refer to Jesus's message and the sum total of the revelation he got, not to any actual physical book that has ever been compiled in any form.

Point 4 would still be valid if one would change the question, more generally, to why God would allow the message of earlier prophets to be lost or distorted but not allow that of Muhammed. Well, Muhammed was the last prophet, so God had to promise that his message would be preserved. There wouldn't be any later prophet to lead back humanity to the straight path if Muhammed's message would end up being lost.

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

 

[ardianto]

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

I've never read Bible, but I often read Biblical verses which appear in Christians articles that written by churches. From what I've noticed, those Biblical verses are true messages from God. But, ...... I also found verses that clearly written by human and added later, like verses about crucifixion.

There is a difference between Christians and Muslims in this matter. Christians wrote something, and added it to Bible. Muslims wrote something, but wrote it down in separate books. Ever heard about "Tafsir Qur'an" (Quranic interpretation)?. This is a book that contain explanation of some verses in Qur'an. Not every Muslim can understand what a verse mean. So, Muslim scholars made explanation without added this explanation into Qur'an. And there are books of hadith, there are books that tell about events that happened during prophet Muhammad time.

Actually, the secret why Qur'an is still original is because Muslims did not add something, or change something in Qur'an, but wrote separate books.

Then the role of God in this matter?. He makes Muslims afraid to change Qur'an. To be honest, if God did not gives this fear, Muslims would change Qur'an too.

 

[greenhill]

Interesting read....

Just to add a different dimension to this topic, seeing as we are talking about 'corruption' and the Word of God, and the importance of keeping the Book (al Quran) in its original text, here are the results of 'tangent' research on the Book. How does this increase the belief that the Book has not changed? Because if it did, then the results will not be as the attachment below...

(The below diagram comparing of words is only part of it, where the words are referred to in comparison like night is equal to day then the word night will appear the exact number of times as the word day... (I cannot find another one where it illustrates that when something is described as 'not equal to' then the number of times it appears will have the difference of being one less and where the it is described as being different, then the number of times it appears will be 2 or 3 less)).


Read the astonishing result of the words mentioned number of times in Qur'an: (Arranged Alphabetically)
[TABLE="width: 98%, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Left Words comparing to Right Words
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aakhirat (Life after this world)
[/TD]
[TD]115
[/TD]
[TD]Dunia (one name for life)
[/TD]
[TD]115
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Benefit (Profit)
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[TD]Corrupt (Loss)
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Deeds
[/TD]
[TD]108
[/TD]
[TD]Reward
[/TD]
[TD]108
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eblees (King of devils)
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]Seek refuge from Eblees
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gold
[/TD]
[TD]8
[/TD]
[TD]Easy life
[/TD]
[TD]8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hardship
[/TD]
[TD]114
[/TD]
[TD]Patience
[/TD]
[TD]114
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Humanity
[/TD]
[TD]65
[/TD]
[TD]Stages of Human Birth
[/TD]
[TD]65
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Life
[/TD]
[TD]145
[/TD]
[TD]Death
[/TD]
[TD]145
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Love
[/TD]
[TD]83
[/TD]
[TD]Faithfulness
[/TD]
[TD]83
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magic
[/TD]
[TD]60
[/TD]
[TD]Fitnah (Dissuasion, Misleading)
[/TD]
[TD]60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malaika (Angels)
[/TD]
[TD]88
[/TD]
[TD]Shayateen (Satan)
[/TD]
[TD] 88
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Man
[/TD]
[TD]24
[/TD]
[TD]Woman
[/TD]
[TD]24
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mind
[/TD]
[TD]49
[/TD]
[TD]Noor (Light)
[/TD]
[TD]49
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Muhammed
[/TD]
[TD]4
[/TD]
[TD]Sharee'ah (Muhammad's teachings)
[/TD]
[TD]4
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Museebah (Calamity)
[/TD]
[TD]75
[/TD]
[TD]Thanks
[/TD]
[TD]75
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Muslimeen
[/TD]
[TD]41
[/TD]
[TD]Jihad
[/TD]
[TD]41
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]People
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[TD]Messengers
[/TD]
[TD]50
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]People who are mislead
[/TD]
[TD]17
[/TD]
[TD]Dead people
[/TD]
[TD]17
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Speaking publicly
[/TD]
[TD]18
[/TD]
[TD]Publicising
[/TD]
[TD]18
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Spending (Sadaqah)
[/TD]
[TD]73
[/TD]
[TD]Satisfaction
[/TD]
[TD]73
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tongue
[/TD]
[TD]25
[/TD]
[TD]Sermon
[/TD]
[TD]25
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tree
[/TD]
[TD]26
[/TD]
[TD]Plant
[/TD]
[TD]26
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winter
[/TD]
[TD]5
[/TD]
[TD]Summer
[/TD]
[TD]5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zakat (Muslim Tax pay to the poors)
[/TD]
[TD]32
[/TD]
[TD]Barakah (Increasing of wealth)
[/TD]
[TD]32
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


And amazingly have a look how many times the following words appear:
Sea 32, Land 13
Sea + land = 32+13= 45
Sea = 32/45*100=71.11111111%
Land = 13/45*100 = 28.88888889%
Sea + land =100.00%

Modern science has recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the earth, while the land covers 28.889%.

[TABLE="width: 34%, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Salat:
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Month:
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Day (singular)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]365[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Day (plural)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sky
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• The word "month" (shahr) occurs 12 times.
• The word "day" (yawm) occurs 365 times.
• The word "days" (eyyam, yawmeyn) occurs 30 times.
• The words "satan" (shaytan) & "angel" (malak), each occur 88 times.
• The words "this world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhirah), each occur 115 times.

This is apart from the obvious 'scientific discoveries' that was already stated in the Quran some 1400 years ago.

Peace :shade:

 

[Futuwwa]

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

No. Pay attention and stop assuming. The only thing you should assume is that if something doesn't make sense to you, it's you who are misunderstanding things.

Jesus got a revelation from God. This revelation is called the Injil. The Injil is *not* any of the following things: the Bible, any part of it, or any earlier uncorrupted version of any Biblical text.

 

[daveyats]

No. Pay attention and stop assuming. The only thing you should assume is that if something doesn't make sense to you, it's you who are misunderstanding things.

Jesus got a revelation from God. This revelation is called the Injil. The Injil is *not* any of the following things: the Bible, any part of it, or any earlier uncorrupted version of any Biblical text.

you are contradicting your own koran and your own fellow muslims my friend.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Hello Daveyats,

Perhaps what Futuwwa means is that the Revelation given to Jesus (PBUH), the Injil, did not survive. What is in the New Testament is translated fragments of other people's accounts of what Jesus (PBUH) said and did. It is not God's Intact Word directly in the form and language in which God Transmitted it to Jesus (PBUH).

I hope this helps.

May God Bless you.

 

[daveyats]

Hello Daveyats,

Perhaps what Futuwwa means is that the Revelation given to Jesus (PBUH), the Injil, did not survive. What is in the New Testament is translated fragments of other people's accounts of what Jesus (PBUH) said and did. It is not God's Intact Word directly in the form and language in which God Transmitted it to Jesus (PBUH).

I hope this helps.

May God Bless you.

if thats the case, it still comes back to the same questions and problems

Was God too weak to ensure the faithful survival of Jesus revelation? if God was too weak to do it with Jesus what guarantee do you have that the final revelation was recorded faithfully by Mohammed's followers?
Did he choose not to care?
Was it unimportant to God?

 

[Futuwwa]

you are contradicting your own koran and your own fellow muslims my friend.

I'm "contradicting" a strawman of the Quran that you and other Christian polemicists have made up to create a Quranic contradiction where there is none.

Whether I contradict other Muslims, let's say for the sake of argument that I am. So? Does something become the official position of all Muslims just because one Muslim says it?

 

[daveyats]

I'm "contradicting" a strawman of the Quran that you and other Christian polemicists have made up to create a Quranic contradiction where there is none.

Whether I contradict other Muslims, let's say for the sake of argument that I am. So? Does something become the official position of all Muslims just because one Muslim says it?

Corrupt:

change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.

"a backup copy will be needed if the original copy becomes corrupted"

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:
[/TD]
[TD]alter, falsify, manipulate, tamper with, interfere with, tinker with, doctor, distort; More[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I really dont know how I've misrepresented Islam because that is the definition of "corruption". you can't corrupt something that wasn't there or something that was untrue to begin with. anyway, for the sake of argument, ill concede that I've created a straw man.

yes, you got me, I confess, these arguments are part of my devious plan to confuse you guys but alas you saw through it....I cannot surpass your intellect and righteousness...i concede defeat! :haha:

 

[Futuwwa]

Whether what any Muslims de facto mean by "corrupted" in the context of the Bible matches up with some dictionary definition you have been able to drudge up is utterly irrelevant, and has absolutely no implication on the validity or the truth value of any argument made.

 

[Insaanah]

In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? [...]

just my critical questions...

Was God too weak to ensure the faithful survival of Jesus revelation? if God was too weak to do it with Jesus what guarantee do you have that the final revelation was recorded faithfully by Mohammed's followers?
Did he choose not to care?
Was it unimportant to God?

Greetings daveyats.

I do find your questions to be couched in language that's not befitting when referring to or describing God, Glorified and Exalted be He.

You see, one can ask, why didn't God protect the previous scriptures?. That is a question.

Then you add, "Was He too weak?", "If He was too weak to do xyz, then abc..." - for which there is no need.

That aside, I notice this theme throughout your question:

apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning...

Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...

just my critical questions...

These sorts of questions have been asked before, so it's no stress test for Islam as far as Musims are concerned, nor do we see it as somebody putting us to the test etc.

It's akin to asking, why did God need to send Abraham when He'd already sent Noah before?

Why if the Qur'an is perfect, did God not make everyone who reads it Muslim? etc etc.

Indeed, in the Qur'an, we are told similar questions/objections that people asked re: why didn't God do this, could He not have done that? etc:

They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them. (6:8)

...they say, "Why has there not been sent down to him a treasure or come with him an angel?" But you are only a warner. And Allah is Disposer of all things. (11:12)

And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide. (13:7)

And they say: "Why does this Messenger eat food, and walk about in the markets (like ourselves). Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him? (25:7)

And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" (25:32)

And they said, "Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon a great man from [one of] the two cities?" (43:31)

So you see, why couldn't God do this, why didn't He do that etc, is nothing new for us.

I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature

Thank you for asking this very important question.

The God of the Qur'an is the God of the Universe and everything and everybody in it, even if they do not acknowledge Him. He is the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be on them all).

He is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, all Wise, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

Now to address the actual question which you seem to be wanting to ask.

God has given humans free will. He doesn't force us to do anything. He revealed the Torah and Injeel, as guidance and light. He didn't force people to protect them. Nor promise to preserve them. Indeed, many Christians and Jews still, despite the books they ended up with, knew that God was One, without partner or son, and that he'd sent prophets, and when Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came, they recognised him as being a Prophet sent by God, and the revelation given to him as being the original message given to their prophets in it's pristine form. And of course, some chose not to believe. Allah in His wisdom knew this would be the last and final messenger, for all mankind, until the day of judgement. Allah promised to preserve this book Himself, which He, in His wisdom, chose not to do with the previous scriptures. Note, not "he couldn't", but he didn't. Allah is "Doer of what He wills" (85:16). "Allah is most knowing of where He places His message." (6:124, part) This book doesn't contain a different message, but it is a continuation, confirmation, and culmination of the original core message contained within the Torah and Injeel and any other previous divinely revealed scriptures, in it's last and final form. "Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. " (41:43) Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was always going to be the last and final messenger for mankind, and the fact that God has promised to protect the Qur'an himself, means it won't get corrupted and therefore no need for any new messenger, because the message is, and will remain intact. He, in His Wisdom, and Foreknowledge chose not to do that with the previous scriptures. Not "couldn't", not was "too weak to", or any other of the words used.

Hope that helps to answer that particular question.

Peace.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

La haoula wa la quwatta illa billah!

Your analysis and exposition is beautiful, Insaanah. Inspired.

May you always walk in His Shade.

 

[daveyats]

Insaanah, thank you for that reply. Essentially, you've said God has allowed this corruption to take place and it is part of His will and wisdom, which we do not understand. Firstly i think that is an acceptable reason though one might ask what wisdom is there in such a will? I think the biggest question that remains is, how do you know that the Koran is protected and free from corruption? I mean, how do you know the verses that say it is uncorrupted and preserved are truly from God and not inserted by men?