Greetings czgibson,
Thankyou also for taking the time to read my post and replying.
czgibson said:
Absolutely - I'm not aware of having contradicted you on this point.
I apologise for not making myself clear enough, for I was referring to the part of your post where you said:
what you appear to be saying here is that all or part of god's reason for unleashing the tsunami was to punish evil. So either some or all of the people who died in the tsunami were evil and deserved to be punished with death.
You assumed here that the Tsunami was as a
matter of fact all or part punishment, whereas I did not say that it was. I said it
could well be, yes, but I couldn't say for sure. And if it was, then we can go ahead and try to understand why people might be being punished.
If by "righteous" you mean people who are generally moral, they may have committed a few small sins but they are generally good people, then yes, those are what I would call innocent people. To me, obviously, a person's religion has no bearing on their ethical quality; an innocent person may be religious or non-religious.
[
2.22]
Who made the earth a resting place for you and the heaven a canopy and (Who) sends down rain from the cloud then brings forth with it subsistence for you of the fruits; therefore do not set up rivals to Allah while you know.
[
2.28]
How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.
[
2.177]
It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).
God explains to us many times how people reject Him while they know that to Him belongs their submission and worship. He informs us in the Qur'an many times of His favours upon us, and how He made the earth a perfect dwelling place for us, yet people still set up rivals to Him, and deny His right to be worshipped alone. As can be understood from the above verses, a person who can be considered "innocent" should at least believe in Allaah. Yes everyone commits sins, yet it is those who repent for their sins and try their best to avoid them who are the successful.
I think now would be a good time to bring in a point that has not been addressed yet,
But in YOUR opinion will God send a Christian or a Jew to hell.
At the time when their respective scriptures were revealed, then originally, Jews and Christians must at some point have been believers in Allaah if they believed in the original revelations to their Prophets. This is because all Prophets and all of Allaah's Books carry the same key message: to believe in no God but Allaah. However, people deviated from the true path and thus Christianity formed, if I am not much mistaken, when the followers of Jesus went astray after his ascent to heaven. Likewise the Jews we have today are not upon the original message contained in their book, the Torah. In their example, the Jewish population knew that Muhammad (pbuh) was the Final Prophet of God, as prophecised in their Scripture, yet out of envy they rejected him and refused to believe in Islam. So God distinguishes between the people of truth and those of falsehood:
[
2.62]
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
But when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came with the Qur'an, this abrogated all other scriptures and it was required of all to accept it:
[
3.19]
Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
And some more verses to explain the position of the Jews:
[
2.89]
And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
[
2.101]
And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
[
2.146]
Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).
Therefore we can understand that no other religion will be accepted of people except Islam in our
current day and age.
I look on their deaths as tragedies.
Not only do we find them tragedies, but we are further taught how to deal with those tragedies - by being patient and steadfast upon our faith and not giving up hope in the Almighty, Allaah.
I wouldn't call it murder, which is an action with direct legal overtones, but I still think my original word "slaughter" is appropriate, as it means "the killing of a large number of people; a massacre". (Dictionary.com)
As I said, the deaths of such people are in the control of God. Just because a large number of people die at once does not make it a "massacre" since God has made death incumbent on each and every human being:
[
3.185]
Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.
While you may not have directly used the term murder, which according to Dictionary.com can also mean "
to kill brutally or inhumanly", you have used terms such as God using weapons of "mass destruction" and victims of 'natural disasters' having been "killed". Such views are incorrect as God would not create us and then kill us! He told us our lives on this world would end, but that does not equate to killing us as though by evil intent. Indeed God is the Most Kind and Ever All-Appreciative of good. There is also a saying of our Prophet (pbuh) which teaches us that God loves us even more than the love of a mother for her child. And also see the verse:
[
3.31]
Say (O Muhammad (pbuh) to mankind): "If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL"
OK, and presumably passing the test involves being faithful, and failing being unfaithful. But what if somebody has no knowledge that the test is happening? Their first instinct would be to try and survive, and after the deluge has passed, to try and get their lives back together again. None of this will necessarily involve believing in god.
Life is about believing in God, and acting according to that belief. For people that are destined to die in an event like a Tsunami, I don't know if it is actually a test for them, which is where I think some of the confusion is coming from, because all they can do is face their death in the best way possible. Of course they try to survive but if their death is decreed then they cannot escape it. So if they spent their lives believing in God, they have passed the test of
life, whereas if they wasted their lives then they have failed unless there is time to reform before death...
[
4.110]
And whoever does evil or acts unjustly to his soul, then asks forgiveness of Allah, he shall find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.
The test in an event like a Tsunami is perhaps more applicable to those that survive, as they are the ones who can demonstrate patience and strength, hence be rewarded for persevering through such difficult times.
So, let us imagine some survivors from the tsunami who are Buddhists (as many in the area affected would have been), who have lost family members, loved ones, children - who have basically suffered an enormous tragedy in their lives. Let us imagine that they have done their best to sort themselves out, they have prayed and meditated and done all the things their religion suggests they do, but they have not suddenly begun to have faith in god, and they have not converted to Islam. They have suffered a huge amount, yet, if I understand you correctly, their suffering has only just begun, because when they die they will be subjected to eternal hell-fire, due to their lack of faith in god. This is part of what I meant by god being a "nasty character".
OK they have just survived, so first of all that is an enormous favour of God in that He has allowed them to live for longer and thus they have more time to review their idea of the truth. Now you said that if they have done their best and prayed and meditated, "they have not suddenly begun to have faith in god", well one might ask if that is the case, that to whom exactly are they praying to? Perhaps God brought them close to death to make them realise that their idols were not of any use to them when they were most needed. Perhaps He saved them to make them realise that it is not their false gods that help them but it is He, Allaah, Who does so. It goes back to the covenant between man and God as I said before, that if we do not fulfil our part of the contract to worship God then why should we expect God to reward us for something we have not done?
[
2.286]
Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought
[
4.49]
Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.
Is it more difficult to worship God the Creator than to worship powerless statues of stone? God gave mankind intelligence and many a means of guidance and it is up to him to use these things effectively. If it were impossible to recognise truth from falsehood then there would be something wrong there, but God says He does not burden any soul beyond what it can bear and that He is the Most Just.
OK, I see you are using a different meaning of the word "righteous" than me. What do you mean by "implementing what one has practised throughout life"? If they have been faithful during their lives, I don't think it would matter what they did in their last moments, as long as they didn't commit some heinous sin.
I mean that faithful people will not be finding faith at the last moment but rather their faith will teach them to accept the circumstances and die as righteous Muslims. You are right in what you say here, and as righteous people they will know how best to make the most of their last moments of life.
The part about their deaths being "not so tragic" shows, I believe, one of the major impulses for theistic belief. Theists often say that they don't believe in god because it is comforting to do so, yet what you say here shows that you do, in fact, believe the idea of god is comforting. I believe that part of the origin of god-belief (and indeed belief in the afterlife) stems from the fact that people find it difficult to come to terms with the reality of death. I'm not saying this is the main, or the only reason why you personally believe in god, but I definitely think it's there at some level.
The part about their deaths being not so tragic was an attempt to illustrate how God is not punishing innocent people and that their deaths are not in vain. While believing in God is naturally comforting, we do not believe in Him because we feel like it but rather because we know it to be the right thing. Having the sense of satisfaction is an outcome or bonus in following the truth, rather than the main reason for doing do. Some people find it comforting not to believe in God so that they won't have to worry about being accountable for their actions... hence following desires would not naturally lead one to believing in God, for if someone were to believe in the afterlife because they feared death, then they would perhaps be even more frightened when they realise there is something even worse than death i.e. Hell.
So the Prophet (pbuh) would have opposed all scientific inquiry, as well as the study of philosophy, economics, politics and history? These things all cause confusion, and are seldom clear; they are most definitely important, however.
That Prophetic teaching was actually referring to unimportant matters of religion upon which faith does not increase; I apologise for not having made it clear.
I know it does not silence anyone, but it is often used as an attempt to silence people.
No it is used to show we recognise our boundaries and limited knowledge of a subject. If we simply look at the context in which I used this concept: I was saying that I did not know whether the Tsunami and other such specific events were actually a punishment or merely a test for mankind, as this is something that God Knows best about. We can speculate and say what we think, yet ultimately the true knowledge is with Allaah since we know He has Knowledge of all things.
If your prediction is based upon a proven theory or law, then it's very likely that it will happen, unless there's something wrong with the theory, or the law needs updating.
Exactly, so if you didn't know the theory then you wouldn't know what to expect, likewise we already have knowledge of God so we understand Him better. For example: we know He is the All-Knowing, All-Wise, so obviously something that our created minds cannot understand does not mean that God is doing something wrong. He has Knowledge of past, present and future and thus we know what He does is for the best and for a reason.
OK, this is your belief. Remember, though, that a belief can never be a fact unless it's proven not to be false.
Ah, this is a typical tactic used by atheists! Remember the argument was about understanding God, so we were discussing an aspect of belief and not the
evidence for belief! Whenever a point is made you resort to changing the subject or context.
Could we focus on the implied attributes given to god by Epicurus for the purposes of his argument, rather than including any other attributes that have been added by religious tradition? I think that way we will be able to deal with the question more effectively and clearly. If you disagree then we could set out parameters for what we're talking about if you wish.
Well I am answering your question in a way. If you can say that God did not bestow upon us His favours but rather we found our own food and are responsible for our state of well-being, then why attribute evil to God when it is us who kill and commit crime? It does not make sense to reject half the argument that suits your stance, and ignore the other half. Furthermore, you say God is evil yet I am showing how it is us who earn that evil when we do not fulfil our duty to obey God and show gratitude after He gave us life and blessed us with food and homes etc.
I did not read that post about Epicurus properly beforehand so now that I know where you are coming from, I shall try to make my answers more focused on it.
Well, that doesn't follow logically, but I would be prepared to accept it in order to follow your argument.
This follows on from my previous point, being that if you blame God for evil, at least blame, or rather ackowledge Him for the good aswell!
Yes, they do still wonder that, and your argument so far does nothing to dispel that mystery.
I thought it would at least help in making you understand the simple fact that if you don't fulfil your duty, why should God fulfil His? If you feed and clothe a slave that belongs to you, and then he goes and serves another master, would you be pleased with such behaviour?
Well, I'm not sure that we have, for the reasons given above.
Well I hope that
now we have esablished those deaths were not some kind of a massacre!
OK, I see your point now, although I don't know if god allows the test to take place to give others aesthetic pleasure!
Yes as to the true reason behind it all, that is something God Knows best and also remember that He is far above His creation in that He should experience feelings like we do.
I did not know this. How does this purification occur? After illness, are you in a better moral state than before? Does this simply mean that while ill you are unable to sin, perhaps because you are limited in your movements etc.?
This follows on from the concept that God is not evil. You see, to understand this properly, we need to acknowledge that life is a test and that our aim is for the hereafter. Life was never meant to be an easy ride if we are to achieve Paradise, since the road to Paradise is full of obstacles. Therefore, hardship is a form of a trial wherein we are expected to demonstrate patience and perseverance.
[
2.153]
O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.
[
2.155]
And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
And we learn from the Qur'an as well as the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that we are rewarded for our patience. In fact, hardships can even be perceived as a Mercy from God because it is like a means of worldy punishment for sins and we can avoid the far greater punishment of the hereafter thereby. So being purified in this life is better than in the hereafter, hence just because life becomes difficult does not immediately mean that God can't care about us or else He would not allow it to happen. No
, it requires you to look at the whole picture before making conclusions.
As for how the purification occurs, well while you are sick for example, you are being forgiven sins God-Willing - it is a spiritual thing rather than a physical event. This doesn't mean you can't sin further, but simply that some sins are removed. It is up to the individual to keep sins to a minimum by controlling his actions and speech.
It looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree here, but thank you for making your position clear - I'm starting to understand it better. I'm sorry I'm so slow at getting to grips with these ideas, but I've only been blessed with a small brain (as a religious person might say), and life is for learning (as a non-religious person might say). Holding two contradictory mindsets in one mind was never going to be easy, but I'm getting there...
Hopefully we can reach an agreement by means of good discussion, God-Willing. There is no problem in you taking time to get to grips with any of these things, since I probably am not even doing a very good job of explaining very well but I hope God will help me to do so and guide you and the other non-muslims on this forum also.
Peace
Furthermore, you blame me since I was fully able to take care of the cat myself!