The fate of Non-Muslims in the hereafter

[Joe98]

If I sin for 30 minutes, I am punished for all eternity - which is somewhat longer than 30 minutes!

The unfairness means the punishment couldn't possibly be true!

 

[aamirsaab]

If I sin for 30 minutes, I am punished for all eternity - which is somewhat longer than 30 minutes!

The unfairness means the punishment couldn't possibly be true!

Oh so now you want a piece too huh?

I'll put it nice and simple as I'm tired of discussing this issue:
God has given you a pretty long life AND you are in the presence of Islam and muslims at this moment (yes, the internetz countz). You have until you die to accept the existence of Allah and bear witness to Him and His messengers (i.e say the shahadah). And considering it takes about 20 seconds to say the shahadah, I'd say it's quite easy to get into heaven and avoid hell-fire completely!

Still think the punishment is unfair?

 

[Skavau]

It is nice to assume that lab rats will react in a specific fashion to a particular stimulus but it is safe to say, that you can't expect the same reaction from people!
By my standards you subscribe to lesser morals at a primitive basic level, the ones that animals might possess although at times even to a lesser degree, since animals lack the calculating factor and react on instinct!

Lol, well done for misreading what I meant by trying to get people to understand the difference between religious morals and irreligious morals. I do not see anyone as lab rats.

Moreover, are you accusing me of being calculating?

There is no right or wrong when it comes to an assumed hypothetical situation as you have clearly extricated yourself from subscribing. You don't get to have feelings about something that doesn't exist (per you) it is absurd-- and obviously we don't share your perspective making this an exercise in futility!

Yes I do. I can have feelings on whatever I like, and without your permission.

You do understand that I don't see things from your perspective?

Of course I do. I've already acknowledged that.

I have glimpsed over your notes, I can't find an issue on immorality, at least not an objective one!

That's fine. You're welcome to that. You're also welcome to criticise my complaints.

That is fine and well, however, even fiction games that you subscribe to have a particular theme that you have to follow in order for you to achieve a particular end result! you don't for instance play a murder mystery game and complain that your guide is Alex Trebek instead of hercule poirot- you should make minimal effort to understand your situation and surrounding, especially that which you choose of your own free will!

I am making an effort to understand everyone here. Why do you think I have expressed a persistent interest in this discussion?

The problem again lies with you.. If I go away on a vacation, pay you to be a house sitter, ask you to take care of my cat, provide you with everything you could possibly want with a few propositions which is to take care of my house, feed my cat and live of the fat the land and do as you please and in the end not only do I find my house in shambles, my cat dead and everything laying in utter ruin but you go so far as to accuse me of being negligent and not beneficent I am pretty sure any sane person would clearly see that the fault lies with you.

I'm sorry, but you are going to have to explain what the slightest relevance this analogy has to do with being slung into eternal torture and destitute for what you think, or do not think.

Everything is plainly laid out for you and you have mind to reason, failure to recognize it doesn't except you from responsibility. Be that as it may, people who were truly denied the message:

Don't be ridiculous. Do you know anything of the objective reality we both co-inhabit? Christians, of all flavours inform me of precisely the same. Scientologists affirm that Dianetics is of equal veracity. Every religious belief interested in attendance or conformity proclaims the precise same. That their message is true, with all other messages being of a deviant nature. It is all well and good for you to tell me that it is all "plainly laid out" but you appear to forget that as an atheist, I have no reason to accept your beliefs as true nor the beliefs of Islam.

as per Quran will not be punished, since God is just! rather rendering your who analogy worthless .. and that is usually what happens when you argue before you read!

Can you please reference what analogy you are referring to?

So what is the problem? I have already explained to you the themes you find yourself in, failure to recognize them doesn't exempt you from punishment, though you are not forced to work in life, or forced to work for the hereafter, be prepared to suffer consequences in either situations..

It is so funny how you write of analogies, but throw a tantrum when one isn't to your liking!

I'm not throwing any "tantrum". I'm unimpressed and baffled about how you fail to understand how analogies are supposed to work. You build up an analogy, I then criticise it and you simply respond with a half-hearted "so?". This is not debate, this is petulance.

If the themes I find myself, the failure to recognise them does not exempt me from the judgment of this omniscient superpower then it bares even less familiarity with your original analogy of the employer. Remember, the employee entered a binding contract by choice. They were aware of it and agreed to it. I am not aware of having any binding contract with any supernatural being, much less that of Allah. You are now telling me that this is an irrelevance. You are now telling me, well never mind the fact that you've explained how the employee of someone is in a different situation than that of God... it is how it is.

You have many chances to start over in life.. it isn't over until it is over!
But it doesn't change the fact of the matter.. you are here on earth now, contemplating all of this, making a conscious decision? You don't get to complain about the exam results after you find out the answers when you were given ample room to study and reflect over course work!

Another analogy that falls on its face! What exam have I entered with God? What course did I sign up to? Who signed me up? You appear to be forgetting that my perspective (in the context of god) disputes the claim that any exam exists.

I am finding no problems with eternal torture for a person such as you. I certainly can't equate someone who works hard to attain someone who slacks off and expects, but even with, surely God has declared:

[And when those who believe in Our messages come unto thee, say: "Peace be upon you. Your Sustainer has willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy — so that if any of you does a bad deed out of ignorance, and thereafter repents and lives righteously, He shall be [found] Much-forgiving, a Dispenser of grace.}(Al-An`am 6:54)

Again, it would really pay if you read before you write!

Personal insult ignored, what does the verse you referenced have to do with anything?

It isn't a matter of morality.. it is a matter of justice!

What justice is satisfied for someone to be sent to hellfire to thought-crime?

 

[GuestFellow]

If I sin for 30 minutes, I am punished for all eternity - which is somewhat longer than 30 minutes!

The unfairness means the punishment couldn't possibly be true!

You actually sinned for a big chunk of your life, drinking alcohol, eating pork, not praying 5 times a day, not giving charity, not fasting, rejecting the existence of Allah and supporting other kaffirs. I can go on...

What justice is satisfied for someone to be sent to hellfire to thought-crime?

You can ask Allah, when you die. All you have to do is wait, if your truly eager to find out. Not just thought-crime, is what you do shall be taken into account whether you shall be sent to hellfire or not. What you think will directly have an impact on your actions.

 

[Skavau]

By moral existence I mean ethics.

Okay, so why can I not talk about the ethical problems of concepts I don't believe are true?

It's not thought crime if you don't believe what you are doing IS a crime nor that you don't believe in the punishment for that crime actually exists! If you go to hell for denying God's existence, you cannot cry foul-play when you go to Hell (which you have been told outright already).

This, uh, makes little sense. You have firstly simply claimed (without substance) that under no situation can you complain about being sent to hell for disbelief.

Secondly, the first part of your complaint focuses purely on semantics again. I am going to ignore what constitutes 'thought-crime' and focus more specifically. Belief is not a choice. You come to conclusions on things in your life through your experience with natural phenomena, personal influences and knowledge gained through research. I cannot change my 'atheism' or my non-belief in a divine arbiter without first being convinced that it is true. How is it then fair, from that groundwork to decree I am to end up languishing in eternal torture purely for, what is ultimately a case of getting my information wrong?

On the other hand, if saying (bare minimum that is) the shahadah (with proper conviction) is all that it takes to escape from hell - then hurry up man!

Firstly, this is flirting with Pascal's Wager (a dishonest, dishonourable and illogical fallacy).

Secondly, perhaps you are aware that various other faiths make the exact same claim about the afterlife as Islam does (punishment vs. piety). What grounds do I, an objective observer and skeptic have to distinguish?

Irrespectively, do you not understand that conviction means something to some people?

This is why I repeated Uthman's post. It might be better overall if you could narrow down which of the four categories there actually is any unjustice to?

Certainly.

1. Belief is not a choice. It is immoral firstly to punish people for actions that they have no control over. I cannot help that Islam does not convince me, it just doesn't. I may die like this, I may not. In the case of the former, how is it acceptably moral to allow me to be tortured eternally simply for this error? We do not accept this kind of contemptible behaviour from any nation-states, but when divinely inspired it becomes somehow tying up loose ends?

2. The time-scale is infinitely unjust. I would have only lived a life-time. How is it fair that the punishment, if even considered valid last such a time?

3. It appears in contradiction with God's knowledgeable foundation. God according to you created everything, and being omniscient would have absolute knowledge that perhaps not everyone might be convinced of his claims to divinity. Why then, with this knowledge would he set up a situation where most would ultimately fail?

Personally (not a specific criticism), it is a thinly-veiled supernatural threat and is an absolute form of compulsion. It comes across to me as capricious, rather than divine.

Those are 3 points I came up with. The 1st point is absolutely the one I consider most important.

It was a basic example to illustrate a point. And you're being awfully negative as seems to be the per with critics of Islam who keep demanding answers!

Your point was to compare something that you believe to be supernaturally directed with that of breaking the law in a nation. It does not demonstrate that it is moral because, well, we know that many laws of many nations are unjust.

Well, could you please explain to me how exactly the punishment of hell is thought-crime, in light of all the posts so far (especially brother Uthmans)?

Its foundation is rooted in what you think. What you believe, or do not believe. For me the act of punishing someone for what they believe or do not believe is the very definition of declaring something to be a thought-crime.

 

[Skavau]

When one is blind to the truth and deaf to the calling of the truth, nobody can help them.

Arguing, discussing and debating get us nowhere. We are always posed with the same questions and the same rebuttles. I spent my life trying to make people see...but my heart has grown tired of seeing these people and their arrogance.

I call my brothers and sisters to leave them be and let them face the truth in the hereafter; where they realise it all and beg for a second chance to come back.

Do you not see that making or implying supernatural threats passively demonstrates my point?

 

[GuestFellow]

3. It appears in contradiction with God's knowledgeable foundation. God according to you created everything, and being omniscient would have absolute knowledge that perhaps not everyone might be convinced of his claims to divinity. Why then, with this knowledge would he set up a situation where most would ultimately fail?

The laws of time is not applicable to God, the concept of past, present and future I believe has been created by humans. These factors cannot affect God since he created them...God not part of creation itself.

Time governs humans, not God.

 

[Rasema2]

Why then, with this knowledge would he set up a situation where most would ultimately fail?

The Jews didn't follow the laws. Muslims were sent to follow the laws. Arabs have not failed in following Allah's laws. They indeed still cut arms, stone to death etc... Allah's laws have not changed. And the Qur'aan answers your question:{ وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَيْهِ فَٱحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجاً وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَـٰكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَىٰ الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعاً فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ }


And We have revealed to you, O Muhammad (s), the Book, the Qur’ān, with the truth (bi’l-haqq is semantically connected to anzalnā, ‘We have revealed’) confirming the Book that was before it and watching over it, testifying [to it] — the ‘Book’ means the Scriptures. So judge between them, between the People of the Scripture, if they take their cases before you, according to what God has revealed, to you, and do not follow their whims, deviating, away from the truth that has come to you. To every one of you, O communities, We have appointed a divine law and a way, a clear path in religion, for them to proceed along. If God had willed, He would have made you one community, following one Law, but, He separated you one from the other, that He may try you in what He has given to you, of the differing Laws, in order to see who among you is obedient and who is disobedient. So vie with one another in good works, strive hastily thereunto; to God you shall all return, through resurrection, and He will then inform you of that in which you differed, in the matter of religion, and requite each of you according to his deeds.

Time governs humans, not God.

Allah governs time brother. It is obligatory to believe that Allah wills it all. But it is also evident that humans having free will cause corruption on earth wanting to govern the earth and striving for fame, success etc...
Out of Allah's mercy, He givesfree will. He wont force you to be obedient.

 

[thetruth2009]

Assalama elykoum to all of you,


I know nothing, and I apologize for my english.

What Can I say, Allah, god or call him what you like, there is only one god, no 2 or 3 but one and only one.

After to say that person or human is going to hell or paradise only god knows best, we are not god.

I hope all people will go to paradise insha allah end ask god to guide us and to forgive us, because I can not wish to anybody to go to hell even one second, I can not judge anybody and say that jews, that christian or that son of Adam will go to hell.


Take care every body only god knows the best each one of you and know what you have deep inside your soul and heart.

Assalam aleykoum, peace be upon to you all.

 

[جوري]

Lol, well done for misreading what I meant by trying to get people to understand the difference between religious morals and irreligious morals. I do not see anyone as lab rats.

Oh you had another intention?

Moreover, are you accusing me of being calculating?

That seems to happen when you possess more than reticular function (no thanks to any volition of your own of course) and you are certainly responsible for how you use it!

Yes I do. I can have feelings on whatever I like, and without your permission.

Indeed, but that is solely your problem, no one is under any obligation to hold anything you regard in a light other than that of absurdity!

Of course I do. I've already acknowledged that.

Good!

That's fine. You're welcome to that. You're also welcome to criticise my complaints.

and I have been!

I am making an effort to understand everyone here. Why do you think I have expressed a persistent interest in this discussion?

There isn't really any occult reasoning going on here for you to exert in earnest!
In other words I don't understand why it takes multiple attempts for you to understand what should be very basic!

I'm sorry, but you are going to have to explain what the slightest relevance this analogy has to do with being slung into eternal torture and destitute for what you think, or do not think.

Let me Quote a dear br. on the forum in reply:

The Qur’an tells us that Allah created us for a purpose and that is to worship Him. We humans are given a brain and an ability to think logically. If we look at the universe and all of creation and yet don’t acknowledge the existence of a Creator, but rather believe that it all came about by chance, then isn’t that a most horrendous crime to deny the clear signs of Allah and His existence. If we believe in the Creator and yet ascribe sons, daughters and partners to Him, then isn’t that a monstrosity and a poor use of our intellect? If one is sent to the Hellfire, then what good does it do for him to cry, “It is not justice to punish me so harshly for only a thought-crime.”

If we believe in Allah and yet refuse to obey His Will for our lives as revealed through Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), then isn’t this disobedience punishable? If we receive all of the blessings in life like delicious food to eat, sweet water and milk to drink, and a body with all of its amazing senses like seeing (a sunset), hearing (birds sing), smelling (a rose), tasting (chocolate mousse), feeling pleasure (marital intimacy) and yet we don’t acknowledge our Lord by giving thanks and obeying Him, then isn’t that an injustice in and of itself? We are at Allah’s Mercy and if He punishes some and forgives others, then who are we to question why? I am indeed fearful of Allah’s Punishment, yet hopeful in His Mercy

We often look at things from our own limited human perspectives and don’t see “the big picture” from Allah’s perspective. We don’t really fathom the enormity of the crime of rejecting faith or ascribing partners with Allah. If it is unjust from our perspective for Allah to punish these sins for eternity, isn’t it only logical to try and avoid this punishment even if it is “unjust”? If this person’s intention is to turn us away from Islam by showing that this punishment is unjust, isn’t he just wasting his time?
​

Don't be ridiculous. Do you know anything of the objective reality we both co-inhabit? Christians, of all flavours inform me of precisely the same. Scientologists affirm that Dianetics is of equal veracity. Every religious belief interested in attendance or conformity proclaims the precise same. That their message is true, with all other messages being of a deviant nature. It is all well and good for you to tell me that it is all "plainly laid out" but you appear to forget that as an atheist, I have no reason to accept your beliefs as true nor the beliefs of Islam.

I think anyone with sincere effort exerting some time can sort through the crap in two days or less.. it is an exercise in logic.. if you have to exert, shrug your shoulders and render it a mystery of the theologians chances are you are doing something wrong!
and you are absolutely right, you have no reason to accept my beliefs as true, the same way I don't accept your beliefs as true!

Can you please reference what analogy you are referring to?

you wrote and I quote you:

mmoral seperation: thought. The very idea of sending people to eternal torture based on what they didn't do, on what they had no idea they had to do.

to which I have quoted you directly from the Quran:

17: 15 Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer, of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden. Moreover, We would never chastise [any community for the wrong they may do] ere We have sent, an apostle [to them].

is it difficult for you to follow, what you yourself have written?

I'm not throwing any "tantrum". I'm unimpressed and baffled about how you fail to understand how analogies are supposed to work. You build up an analogy, I then criticise it and you simply respond with a half-hearted "so?". This is not debate, this is petulance.

You being un-impressed, unable to recant what you yourself have written half a page away and critical of others is again your problem not mine. I don't think I can write in a simpler fashion!

If the themes I find myself, the failure to recognise them does not exempt me from the judgment of this omniscient superpower then it bares even less familiarity with your original analogy of the employer. Remember, the employee entered a binding contract by choice. They were aware of it and agreed to it. I am not aware of having any binding contract with any supernatural being, much less that of Allah. You are now telling me that this is an irrelevance. You are now telling me, well never mind the fact that you've explained how the employee of someone is in a different situation than that of God... it is how it is.

Likewise we have entered into worship by choice, there is a binding contract:

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshiping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In the Qur’an Al-A'raaf 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:' Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain that it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".


Now whether you believe your soul took a binding contract or not is inconsequential at this stage, what is of consequence, that you indeed have the free choice as you do with any job you under-take either to fulfill your obligations or suffer consequences immediate or long term!

Another analogy that falls on its face! What exam have I entered with God? What course did I sign up to? Who signed me up? You appear to be forgetting that my perspective (in the context of god) disputes the claim that any exam exists.

It falls on your face alone, surely anyone who finds themselves in any situation whether they are lost at sea, sitting for a test, driving to work, born in this life, will have to question 'why am I here' 'what am I supposed to do'

Personal insult ignored, what does the verse you referenced have to do with anything?

It means that your reward or punishment doesn't lie in the personal opinion of anyone here, and just as you accuse God of being unjust to the contrary he has willed unto himself the law of grace and mercy!

What justice is satisfied for someone to be sent to hellfire to thought-crime?

see paragraph 7..

all the best!

 

[GuestFellow]

Allah governs time brother. It is obligatory to believe that Allah wills it all. But it is also evident that humans having free will cause corruption on earth wanting to govern the earth and striving for fame, success etc...
Out of Allah's mercy, He givesfree will. He wont force you to be obedient.

You misunderstood what I said. Allah created time and time can only affect humans. Allah is not part of the creation, he controls it.

 

[Rasema2]

You misunderstood what I said. Allah created time and time can only affect humans. Allah is not part of the creation, he controls it.

My apologies.
:wa:

 

[aamirsaab]

Okay, so why can I not talk about the ethical problems of concepts I don't believe are true?

You cannot have an issue with something that doesn't exist. To you, the concept of hell doesn't exist It's nothing more than fairytale - which means there aren't any moral dilemas about hell because hell doesn't exist! And on top of that, you want ME to convince YOU that there are ethical reasons for its existence. You don't get to make a claim and then demand I disprove/prove it.

Secondly, the first part of your complaint focuses purely on semantics again. I am going to ignore what constitutes 'thought-crime' and focus more specifically. Belief is not a choice. You come to conclusions on things in your life through your experience with natural phenomena, personal influences and knowledge gained through research. I cannot change my 'atheism' or my non-belief in a divine arbiter without first being convinced that it is true. How is it then fair, from that groundwork to decree I am to end up languishing in eternal torture purely for, what is ultimately a case of getting my information wrong?

Again, this leads us back to uthman's post where he qualifies who goes where.
* In the event of a person not being informed or misinformed about Islam (and thus unable to join Islam), then they will be asked questions on the day of judgement and based on the answers will go to heaven or hell.
* Those who have received Islam in full (no misinterpretation) yet deny it, go to hell.
* Born muslims have a slightly easier time - some will have a period of hell-time because they had a high sin count.
* But if they die in a state of kufr, one way ticket to hell.

Firstly, this is flirting with Pascal's Wager (a dishonest, dishonourable and illogical fallacy).

That's why I said with conviction, meaning you act upon it. And by doing so leads to a stronger faith in the religion which would rule out pascal's wager. I think there's a hadith on the matter that basically says pascal's wager doesn't wash. It goes something like 3 people acted as muslims but were denied heaven because: one did it to show off, one was a hypocrite and I forgot the last one.

Secondly, perhaps you are aware that various other faiths make the exact same claim about the afterlife as Islam does (punishment vs. piety). What grounds do I, an objective observer and skeptic have to distinguish?

That's for you as an individual to find out. But you have a head-start: you're on an Islamic forum talking with muslims. So that's half the battle won

1. Belief is not a choice. It is immoral firstly to punish people for actions that they have no control over. I cannot help that Islam does not convince me, it just doesn't. I may die like this, I may not. In the case of the former, how is it acceptably moral to allow me to be tortured eternally simply for this error? We do not accept this kind of contemptible behaviour from any nation-states, but when divinely inspired it becomes somehow tying up loose ends?

1) Have you been given the full presentation of Islam? Or is it stuff from hate sites?
2) You are still alive.

2. The time-scale is infinitely unjust. I would have only lived a life-time. How is it fair that the punishment, if even considered valid last such a time?

Again, you are still alive AND in the presence of muslims and Islam.

3. It appears in contradiction with God's knowledgeable foundation. God according to you created everything, and being omniscient would have absolute knowledge that perhaps not everyone might be convinced of his claims to divinity. Why then, with this knowledge would he set up a situation where most would ultimately fail?

Why has God put people in poverty? Why did God not give a rapist a heart-attack before he commited the crime to prevent it? Countless questions can be asked. Personally, I see them all as a test to mankind: can we uphold justice or do we behave completely passive. Are you man or mouse kind of thing. Perhaps those who will fail face a different test all together. I don't know the ins and outs of God's decisions, sorry dude. That's beyond me.

Personally (not a specific criticism), it is a thinly-veiled supernatural threat and is an absolute form of compulsion. It comes across to me as capricious, rather than divine.

It is indeed an absolute form of compulsion hence the meaning of Islam = submission to Allah. A threat? Please, it is clearly carrot and stick: you are offered heaven for doing good and hell for doing bad. Guess what, that's how humans actually operate! So I'd call it genius not capricious.

Your point was to compare something that you believe to be supernaturally directed with that of breaking the law in a nation. It does not demonstrate that it is moral because, well, we know that many laws of many nations are unjust.

The principle behind it was quite simple tbh...

Its foundation is rooted in what you think. What you believe, or do not believe. For me the act of punishing someone for what they believe or do not believe is the very definition of declaring something to be a thought-crime.

Again see uthman's post. You cannot levy that accusation with those categories in mind.

As a kind reminder to all (myself included) less adhoms/personal insults please.

 

[Skavau]

The laws of time is not applicable to God, the concept of past, present and future I believe has been created by humans. These factors cannot affect God since he created them...God not part of creation itself.

Time governs humans, not God.

This is a meaningless response. Is God all-knowing or not? Would you say God does not know all events by his creation?

 

[Skavau]

The Jews didn't follow the laws. Muslims were sent to follow the laws. Arabs have not failed in following Allah's laws. They indeed still cut arms, stone to death etc... Allah's laws have not changed. And the Qur'aan answers your question:{ وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَيْهِ فَٱحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجاً وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَـٰكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَىٰ الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعاً فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ }


And We have revealed to you, O Muhammad (s), the Book, the Qur’ān, with the truth (bi’l-haqq is semantically connected to anzalnā, ‘We have revealed’) confirming the Book that was before it and watching over it, testifying [to it] — the ‘Book’ means the Scriptures. So judge between them, between the People of the Scripture, if they take their cases before you, according to what God has revealed, to you, and do not follow their whims, deviating, away from the truth that has come to you. To every one of you, O communities, We have appointed a divine law and a way, a clear path in religion, for them to proceed along. If God had willed, He would have made you one community, following one Law, but, He separated you one from the other, that He may try you in what He has given to you, of the differing Laws, in order to see who among you is obedient and who is disobedient. So vie with one another in good works, strive hastily thereunto; to God you shall all return, through resurrection, and He will then inform you of that in which you differed, in the matter of religion, and requite each of you according to his deeds.

God does not need to see anything if he is omniscient. He already knows and understands that the majority will fail to meet his demands or requirements.

 

[- Qatada -]

This issue requires faith, and Muslims recognise this. Simple as.

 

[Uthman]

The following is a talk by 'Abdur-Raheem Green who talks about this topic from an Islamic perspective:

Do good people go to Hell? Part 1

Do good people go to Hell? Part 2

Do good people go to Hell? Part 3

Do good people go to Hell? Part 4

 

[Skavau]

Ignoring the petty sanctimonious and pompous comments about me by Skye, I'll move onto actual content.

Let me Quote a dear br. on the forum in reply:

Right

The Qur’an tells us that Allah created us for a purpose and that is to worship Him. We humans are given a brain and an ability to think logically. If we look at the universe and all of creation and yet don’t acknowledge the existence of a Creator, but rather believe that it all came about by chance, then isn’t that a most horrendous crime to deny the clear signs of Allah and His existence.

No it isn't.

Firstly, no-one is contending that the universe came about by chance. This is a typical and mindnumbing persistently claim made by theist apologists that remains as untrue as it always has. I do not, and have not ever claimed that the only driving force of existence is sheer randomness. And might I add, no scientist of any credibility would contend this either.

Secondly, no - it isn't an obvious "horrendous crime". In fact, it is purely if anything an error in judgment. The author of this has not yet established whether that making an error in judgment is in anyway indicative of a crime much less a horrendous one.

If we believe in the Creator and yet ascribe sons, daughters and partners to Him, then isn’t that a monstrosity and a poor use of our intellect?

This is a fairly vague and loaded question (presumably intended as rhetorical). The answer, if there even can be one is no. Why would it be? Invalid reasoning is a sign of poor critical thought or evidence of loaded biases. Incorrect conclusions can be validity thought out.

If one is sent to the Hellfire, then what good does it do for him to cry, “It is not justice to punish me so harshly for only a thought-crime.”

It doesn't do any good, of course. But this is another cheap point not elaborated upon.

If we believe in Allah and yet refuse to obey His Will for our lives as revealed through Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), then isn’t this disobedience punishable?

It is not disobedience. Let us invoke an analogy. Let us propose that I am believed by a close-friend to be deceased. We had an alteration years ago where we were split up for good. He believes me to no longer exists, and blames himself - wallowing in self-pity. I one day decide that I will write a set of tasks to this friend of mine so that he can discover my existence. These tasks are set out so that he can through sweat and toil meet up with me and finally discover that his long lost pal is in fact, alive. I then start this by sending these list around the world and encourage people to tell my friend that this is what I ask of him in order for him to finally find me again.

A month passes, no sign. Perhaps he doesn't know I am here or perhaps he has failed the task. Never mind either possibility, I will assume betrayal. Disobedience. Contempt.

Do you not see the fallacy I have made? It is the obvious fallacy made in the quoted post above. How do I know whether my friend has betrayed me? I don't.

If we receive all of the blessings in life like delicious food to eat, sweet water and milk to drink, and a body with all of its amazing senses like seeing (a sunset), hearing (birds sing), smelling (a rose), tasting (chocolate mousse), feeling pleasure (marital intimacy) and yet we don’t acknowledge our Lord by giving thanks and obeying Him, then isn’t that an injustice in and of itself?

Only if you are willingly disobeying with belief or knowledge that god exists. I do not believe and am not convinced that a God exists. You cannot disobey what you do not believe exists. This is what my prior analogy attempted to demonstrate.

We are at Allah’s Mercy and if He punishes some and forgives others, then who are we to question why? I am indeed fearful of Allah’s Punishment, yet hopeful in His Mercy

Ah well, thank you. Fear and steadfast unworthiness is more on track to some degree of honesty. This answer trumps all others given in the sense that it represents the real theistic 'morality'. Obedience to authority for fear of reprisal.

There is no necessary response to this. It is the machination of an automated masochism. It is so apart from actual ethics that it explains itself as dire. How is obedience to authority morality, precisely? By this reasoning Allah could effectively permit and condemn anything for any or no reason and you would have no reason to do anything but side merrily along with it.

And this is objective?

We often look at things from our own limited human perspectives and don’t see “the big picture” from Allah’s perspective. We don’t really fathom the enormity of the crime of rejecting faith or ascribing partners with Allah.

I'd like to see a cogent argument for the enormity of immorality for "rejecting faith" or "ascribing partners with Allah" beyond adoration of Allah's might.

If it is unjust from our perspective for Allah to punish these sins for eternity, isn’t it only logical to try and avoid this punishment even if it is “unjust”? If this person’s intention is to turn us away from Islam by showing that this punishment is unjust, isn’t he just wasting his time?

Sure, but by this logic joining up with the Nazi's was a valid response attempting to avoid the NSDAP's wrath as an objecting German in 1936.

Doesn't really address the moral questions.

I think anyone with sincere effort exerting some time can sort through the crap in two days or less.. it is an exercise in logic.. if you have to exert, shrug your shoulders and render it a mystery of the theologians chances are you are doing something wrong!
and you are absolutely right, you have no reason to accept my beliefs as true, the same way I don't accept your beliefs as true!

Are you serious? You believe that all other religious belief can be singlehandedly determined and dismissed as wrong in the space of two days through simply logic? I thought humility was a bedrock of Islam, or rather Muslims and yet this attitude of describing aspects of all other Non-Muslim beliefs as "crap" and dismissable within two days certainly sounds incredibly self-satisfying.

17: 15 Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer, of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden. Moreover, We would never chastise [any community for the wrong they may do] ere We have sent, an apostle [to them].

is it difficult for you to follow, what you yourself have written?

I really do not see the relevance of that verse here.

Now whether you believe your soul took a binding contract or not is inconsequential at this stage, what is of consequence, that you indeed have the free choice as you do with any job you under-take either to fulfill your obligations or suffer consequences immediate or long term

Irrelevant.

If the above claims about the history of my 'soul' is true, it no longer represents me. Anyone attempting to pull off such a stunt in any fair-minded society also would find themselves in quick trouble with the law. To bind someone to a contract and then essentially eradicate all memory of the incident they have (including the possibility of eradicating all prior beliefs), but still compel them to honour their contract would be in a lot of trouble indeed.

It means that your reward or punishment doesn't lie in the personal opinion of anyone here, and just as you accuse God of being unjust to the contrary he has willed unto himself the law of grace and mercy!

Again, everything I express is my personal opinion of course. I do so without apologies and again without your permission. I also do not need reminding of my opinions either.

Also, the statement "he has willed unto himself the law of grace and mercy" is white noise to me.

 

[Skavau]

You cannot have an issue with something that doesn't exist. To you, the concept of hell doesn't exist It's nothing more than fairytale - which means there aren't any moral dilemas about hell because hell doesn't exist! And on top of that, you want ME to convince YOU that there are ethical reasons for its existence. You don't get to make a claim and then demand I disprove/prove it.

Actually, to the contrare there are moral dilemmas associated with concepts that many people find revolting and/or improbable. Scientology, a persistent example I know - but a very good one. What of it? Scientology has profoundly ridiculous beliefs and yet has very real problems when it associates with people in the real world. I could expand, but it is off-topic.

Secondly, indeed I am not asking you to convince me. I have explained my objections on this to earlier posters. I am happy to elaborate in general, but I am used personally to taking a defensive tract. Irrespectively, this thread was started by a Muslim...

Again, this leads us back to uthman's post where he qualifies who goes where.
* In the event of a person not being informed or misinformed about Islam (and thus unable to join Islam), then they will be asked questions on the day of judgement and based on the answers will go to heaven or hell.
* Those who have received Islam in full (no misinterpretation) yet deny it, go to hell.
* Born muslims have a slightly easier time - some will have a period of hell-time because they had a high sin count.
* But if they die in a state of kufr, one way ticket to hell.

There are obviously various qualifiers here. The first two are interesting because of obvious overlaps, or rather possible overlaps. How do we know whether everyone has been misinformed? Surely everyone, according to your belief who doesn't believe in Islam has in some way been misinformed?

Irrespectively, I should like to question how it is moral to send people who have received Islam in full to hell. To eternal torture for a perspective. For an opinion.

That's why I said with conviction, meaning you act upon it. And by doing so leads to a stronger faith in the religion which would rule out pascal's wager. I think there's a hadith on the matter that basically says pascal's wager doesn't wash. It goes something like 3 people acted as muslims but were denied heaven because: one did it to show off, one was a hypocrite and I forgot the last one.

Sure.

That's for you as an individual to find out. But you have a head-start: you're on an Islamic forum talking with muslims. So that's half the battle won

That's hardly an objective reply!

1) Have you been given the full presentation of Islam? Or is it stuff from hate sites?
2) You are still alive.

1) I have probably not. Perhaps one day I will. Irrespectively, does this qualifier matter here? I would still be being punished for misinformation? By the way, most of my issues with Islam are in general the same issues I have with all concepts contended as supernatural in origin.
2) So?

Again, you are still alive AND in the presence of muslims and Islam.

This is question-dodging. Sorry.

Why has God put people in poverty? Why did God not give a rapist a heart-attack before he commited the crime to prevent it? Countless questions can be asked. Personally, I see them all as a test to mankind: can we uphold justice or do we behave completely passive. Are you man or mouse kind of thing. Perhaps those who will fail face a different test all together. I don't know the ins and outs of God's decisions, sorry dude. That's beyond me.

I am glad about the last sentence. A semblance of humility in lake of grandiosity. I would, by the way accept a concession of ignorance on perhaps all points here and be on my way. I do not ask nor imply that you ought to do this because indeed perhaps you do not feel that way, but I consider it very honest indeed.

And yes, the questions above that you admit to are very valid, need to be answered and by the way are the very reason people cannot believe in God. They are certainly the reason that I reject theism (not deism, per se). It would be amusingly ironic in a sense if someone's disbelief or disobedience was based on a difficulty with understanding the necessity of hellfire, no matter in what form presented.

It is indeed an absolute form of compulsion hence the meaning of Islam = submission to Allah. A threat? Please, it is clearly carrot and stick: you are offered heaven for doing good and hell for doing bad. Guess what, that's how humans actually operate! So I'd call it genius not capricious.

So is it all rooted in self-interest?

Irrespectively, you've provided little evidence based on what you've told me that it is a conscious choice between good and evil. The qualifiers, no matter the specifics are by your standards based upon belief or non-belief. Both of which have nothing to do with being a good person or a bad person. Moreover, do you believe hell is an actual choice? You must know well, and I hope that you believe my perspective to be sincere. That I genuinely do not believe in Islam based on my beliefs and lack of belief (which as I have explained and is as of yet uncontested is not a choice). Do you believe that I have made a choice in going to hell (if indeed I go there)? If so, how so?

Again see uthman's post. You cannot levy that accusation with those categories in mind.

As a kind reminder to all (myself included) less adhoms/personal insults please.

Uthman's post 'fluffies' it up in a sense. It dampens the water and includes seperate categories for different kinds of disbelief. Still the integral question is that it is based on thought, which troubles me.

 

[Rasema2]

God does not need to see anything if he is omniscient. He already knows and understands that the majority will fail to meet his demands or requirements.

God doesn't need to do anyhting, but He can. Yes
But HOW does God see? Not like humans. God sees me when I bow to Him, that could be one reason He sees. If He didn't I wouldn't feel connection to Him, especially during Salat. If God didn't see me I wouldn't feel aware of Him and I would feel like He turns His back on us. And I wouldn't fear Him as much. God takes care of the universe so He has the right to see it too.