The Feminists

[Kamilah]

If you don’t give a woman the same rights as a man because of her gender, that is gender discrimination.

No matter how you cut it, no matter how you try to justify it, it is gender discrimination.

all the more reason for you to take that issue with YOUR government, the feminists are ever growing in your so called "liberated" country

God -willingly the Muslim world is clear on it's stance regarding women.

 

[wilberhum]

all the more reason for you to take that issue with YOUR government, the feminists are ever growing in your so called "liberated" country

God -willingly the Muslim world is clear on it's stance regarding women.

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

 

[Kamilah]

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

care to express your response in words...??:rollseyes

 

[wilberhum]

care to express your response in words...??:rollseyes

As in my edited post:

We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

 

[Kamilah]

As in my edited post:

glad you find it amusing Wilberhum, I hope you can take inspiration from Islam, it is a complete way of life..and Allah knows best.

 

[bint_muhammed]

As Salaamu Alayku,

Lol I know what they are

someone told me that the other day and I was like...

:? :?

Just thought anyone else might've heard the same?

theres different types of femminist you get the
radicle femminist- hate men goes as far as killling them
marxist femminist- see society opressing women through capitalist mean (somet like that)
liberal femminist- like you and me- just want women to have equal opportunity as men
hope that explains to yakay:

 

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^ooh yeh i remember ...ok then i was on about the radical feminsts...

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

you havent seen it until you've found out the way the prophet saws and his companions treated the women. That was the true muslim world, and the way those women behaved was something no feminist could ever understand....

 

[wilberhum]

glad you find it amusing Wilberhum, I hope you can take inspiration from Islam, it is a complete way of life..and Allah knows best.

Take inspiration form inequality?
I think not.

 

[wilberhum]

you havent seen it until you've found out the way the prophet saws and his companions treated the women. That was the true muslim world, and the way those women behaved was something no feminist could ever understand....

Where do I find it? Utopia or some other mythological place?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Where do I find it? Utopia or some other mythological place?

or you can use your sense and read some books on the biogrophy of women in islam such as Aisha RA or Khadija RA :rollseyes

 

[bint_muhammed]

or you can use your sense and read some books on the biogrophy of women in islam such as Aisha RA or Khadija RA :rollseyes

hey bro, i get the feeling your banging your head against a brick wall, like alllah swt say he guides whom he pleaseth!

 

[Kamilah]

Take inspiration form inequality?
I think not.

oh please save this talk for your Bar mitzvah

I think you might wanna go and check your own back yard first didnt u read the sermon i posted...?? why no response to it...like to ignore the truth?

what sort of feminism is it your state actually offers?

you are quite right...it would be difficult for someone of your mindset to comprehend true equality... yor idea of equality is to judge by the least amount of clothes women wear:rollseyes

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

hey bro, i get the feeling your banging your head against a brick wall, like alllah swt say he guides whom he pleaseth!

nope, wilberhum is quite entertainin to "discuss" with. i wouldnt approach a topic about feminism for much dawah, i jus came here to understand how pro-feminist minds work . AND I STLIL DONT GET IT :heated:

i think ive stressed the point that men n women are clearly not equal enuff, women are betta in ways and men betta in other ways. jus like the rest of humanity !!!

 

[KAding]

The reson why there have been more violent male leaders than female leaders is because there have not been many female leaders! The female leaders that are famous have been just as violent and warlike as men:

• Elizabeth I destroyed the Spanish Armada, then sent her own (failed and not well-known) armada to conquer Spain
• Condi is certainly just as warlike as the other Neocons
• Boudiccia burnt down Roman London
• Cleopatra went to war with the Romans
• Joan of Arc kicked the British out of France

Some good examples. But you have to understand that essentially public life, including the political system are a product of patriachal societies. Males have dominated and created these systems and the principles on which they are built, which is inherintly masculine. Laws on warfare and conflict resolution, on honor, on the role of females in society. All of it has been decided by men! A few female monarchs are hardly in a position to bring down such a powerful system of customs and tradition.

The system is essentially based on these masculine characteristics (from wikipedia):

* priorities are achievement, wealth, expansion, and war
* in politics, conflicts are resolved by aggression
* women's liberation means that women begin to participate in male-dominated areas
* a low number of women represented in politics
* manufacturing and business are seen as more important than arts and healing
* the ideal icon is the soldier/warrior or successful entrepreneur
* professionals often "live to work" (i.e. - long work hours and little use of vacation time)
* cultural origins are in warmer and relatively mild climates where there was little need to concentrate on environmental survival, hence a low use of cooperation

Contrast that to the feminity

* priorities are relationships, nurturance, environmental protection, and quality of life
* conflicts solved by negotiation, with aggression as a last resort
* women's liberation means that men and women should share equal roles
* a high number of women in politics
* arts and healing are more important than manufacturing and business
* the ideal icon is someone who helps and nurtures the community
* professionals "work to live" (i.e. - short work hours and high use of vacation time)
* cultural origins are usually from cold and/or environmentally harsh conditions where cooperation was necessary in order to survive (tundras, deserts, etc)

Sure, these are ideal-types. There are violent women and there are caring men. But still, in broad terms it is correct. And I would very much prefer a world order based on the latter! Now, I know that there are plenty of Islamic political theorists (like Sayyid Qutb) who believe public affairs are the affairs of men. That women should not take part in state affairs for example. They believe this is what Islam teaches. I personally simply cannot accept that, and I believe it is bad for everyone.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Members are reminded to remain on topic and post appropriate content and refrain from insults.

 

[wilberhum]

KAding
I like what you have to say. It's good to see some one with balance.

 

[Keltoi]

Women and men have always had different roles in every culture, but in general it is the men who are tasked with the more masculine jobs, like fighting, hunting, and leadership. Women, in general, were tasked with the more domestic jobs, like maintaining a household, raising children, etc. Historically this division of labor was both logical and necessary. However, in modern times these labor divisions aren't as logical or as necessary. Yes, men will still do most of the fighting and hard physical labor, but women are on a mostly equal footing as far as bringing home an income. That means women don't "need" men as they once did, and this creates its own set of cultural problems...or progressions, depending on your point of view.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Izak,

Are you suggesting that females are not strong willed, and are easily manipulated?

Read my post in context. I was responding to wilberhum's assumption that women would definitively be superior leaders due to pacifist nature, and I pointed out that pacificism is not always a positive trait.

Hello Wilber,

I wonder how many stats I could gather showing that men are more violent than women. But then you already know that.

Making generalizations only prompts genarlizations in response. If you want to say that in general men are more violent than women, then by your argument one could say in general women are more emotional than men, and therefore just as unsuitable for the role, if not more.

It is interesting to know that female equality is un-Islamic.

Too bad you didn't read this the first time I posted it:

______________________

Muslim Women: Concept of Equality​

By : Ansar Al-'Adl
Before discussing the concept of equality and how it relates to men and women in Islam, we need to make an important distinction. Many people who speak about equality presume that this should be reflected in treating two groups exactly the same. However, this is manifestly not always the proper thing to do. People's needs, strengths, abilities and disabilities need to be accommodated and considered as opposed to subjecting all to a single standard that may only be suitable for a few.

Thus we need to make a distinction between the superficial procedural equality and the substantive equality, which is justice. Most societies recognize that the important thing is not to focus on superficial procedural equality but to provide substantive equality for all its citizens, which treats them justly according to their needs and circumstances. Human beings favor substantive equality over procedural equality on a daily basis because we recognize that the former allows for justice. We accommodate in our workplaces, schools, and commercial areas, those with disabilities. We recognize the need for social services to take care of the impoverished in the society, while the wealthy are subject to taxes. We give extra attention and consideration to those experiencing emotional, psychological, or physical difficulties in their lives. All of this is substantive equality, equity and justice.

Men and Women
When it comes to men and women, everyone recognizes that there are inherent indisputable differences between men and women. They are not identical; men and women are naturally different in many ways. As a result, it does not follow logically to neglect those differences and advocate a single standard in matters where they are not the same. That may be procedural equality, but it is not substantive equality. For example, it would be unjust for a husband to suggest that his wife work equally as hard as he does when she is pregnant. Justice is served by recognizing the burden of pregnancy and the need for the husband to adjust accordingly. There are obvious biological differences - men experience neither menstrual periods nor childbirth while women generally live longer and have less health problems at an elderly age. The AARP Bulletin published an article on 8 health differences between men and women:

When it comes to health, differences between men and women extend well beyond their attitude toward getting annual checkups and needed treatment. In case men need a few reasons to make a doctor's appointment, they should consider the following:

• The life expectancy for men in the United States, 74.4, is a little more than five years shorter than for women, 79.8.
• Cancer kills men at a higher rate than it kills women.
• Of those killed by heart disease before age 65, 70 percent are men.
• Sleep apnea, a potentially serious disorder that causes breathing to stop and start repeatedly during sleep, is more common in men than women.
• Four times as many men die by suicide, the number-eight cause of death among men.
• Men are 50 percent more likely than women to develop coronary heart disease after age 40.
• Men have fewer infection-fighting T-cells than women.
• By the age of 100, women outnumber men eight to one.

In the olympics, men and women compete separately because of physiological differences. At the age of 18 years, the avergae male is 70.2 inches tall and weighs 144.8 pounds, while the average female is 64.4 inches tall and weighs 126.6 pounds. On the basis of weight, men have 50% greater total muscle mass than women. The average woman's heart is 25% smaller than that of the average man. Women carry about ten percentage points more fat than men (SOURCE).

In academics, women generally score higher than men in subjects such as languages and humanities while the opposite is true for mathematics and sciences. Both genders have unique strengths and capabilities. Concerning the pyschological differences between men and women, an article entitled Men and Women Really Do Think Differently quotes a recent neurological study:

Psychology professor Richard Haier of the University of California, Irvine led the research along with colleagues from the University of New Mexico. Their findings show that in general, men have nearly 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence compared with women, whereas women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence compared to men. [...]In human brains, gray matter represents information processing centers, whereas white matter works to network these processing centers.
The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills. (SOURCE)

​

Another article published in Psychology Today describes the differences between men and women as 'insecapable':

When it comes to speaking and making hand movements that contribute to motor skill, the brain seems to be very focally organized in women compared with men. This may relate to the fact that girls generally speak earlier, articulate better and also have better fine motor control of the hands. Also, a larger proportion of women than men are right-handed, and unequivocally so. But when it comes to certain, more-abstract tasks, such as defining words, women's brains are more diffusely organized than men's, although men and women don't differ in overall vocabulary ability.
[...]Neuropsychologist Marian Diamond of the University of California at Berkeley, comparing cortical thickness in male and female rats, did find that the right cortex is thicker in males at most ages, while the left cortex is thicker in females but only at some ages (see "A Love Affair with the brain," Psychology Today, November 1984). [...]The fact seems inescapable that men and women do differ genetically, physiologically and in many important ways psychologically. (SOURCE)
​

Modern psychological research continues to unveil differences in men and women from the most obvious in behavioural patterns to those as trivial as picking out an angry face in in a crowd. In light of such manifest differences between the two genders, it is unsuitable for men and women to assume identical roles. As mentioned in a NY times article on Women's helath:

In contrast to the feminist premise that women can do anything men can do, science is demonstrating that women can do some things better, that they have many biological and cognitive advantages over men. Then again, there are some things that women don't do as well. (SOURCE)
​

God created us with different but complementary strengths and capabilities. A man does not need to become a woman nor vice versa in order to be successful.

What Islam Says

Islam recognizes that while men and women have some physical differences, spiritually they enjoy absolute equality before God. The Qur'an and Ahadith are unequivocal in stating that one's gender will have absolutely no bearing on their reward or punishment in the next life.

3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other

4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

33:35 Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women - the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for all has Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward.

49:13 O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Therefore Islam openly declares that men and women have an equal status and value before God, and piety alone differentiates one individual from another.

In legal and practical aspects, the general rules are the same for men and women. Both have the same acts of worships, the same Islamic etiquette and manners, and are subject to the same legal penalties. But there are also many cases where the rulings are different. Women are exempted from fasting and prayer during their period. Men are prohibited from wearing gold and silk while women are allowed to, as it is women's nature to beautify themselves. Jumu'ah (Friday prayers) are obligatory for men but optional for women. Men must spend their money on the family but a woman's money is entirely her own to spend as she chooses. There are differences in clothing requirements as well, since the physical appearance of men and women is dissimilar. All of this is reflective of the natural differences between men and women. So in lesser fiqhî (jurisprudential) matters, Islam treats men and women according to their inherent differences as per substantive equality and in the interest of justice.

In conclusion, Islam affirms the absolute spiritual equality of men and women, and assigns both an equal rank before God. In Jurisprudential matters, Islam promotes the substantive equality of men and women, recognizes their unique strengths and capabilities, and rules accordingly protecting the rights of both.
___________________


If anyone is really interested in understanding what Islam says on such issues, please visit this thread which contains 3 articles and has many more forthcoming:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/26881-muslim-women.html

Hi KAding,
I noticed you did not respond to my earlier post answering your misunderstandings about hijaab. Did you miss it? I'm interested to know what further questions you might have so please do read my response.

Males have dominated and created these [political] systems

Why do you think that is the case? In Islam, the systems are created by neither men nor women, but the creator of humanity.

Peace.

 

[Curaezipirid]

Waram,

The state of South Australia was the first place to give women the vote, followed closely by the whole of New Zealand.

So I feel sort of culturally obligated to consolidate a brief relegation of what feminism has proven worth to us here in the land of Oz:

women can hide what we spend money on from Husbands with eeease;

women can chose to assert their rights as women and to have any credibility in that must dress modestly, where as any woman whom asserts her rights as a female and dresses bossy is a sell out, and if she dresses sexy she is a worse sell out;

women are forgetting how to be good wives;

women have equitable education with men;

the rights of the child in child birth have been abused along with the rights of the mother;

too many children get money confused with parental affection;

the radical lefty feminists chant: "yes means yes and no means no, what ever we wear and where ever we go"; and not one person can fault them in that;

there are feminists whom use sado masichist brothels and nightclubs and try to rub the publics face in the facts to the matter, such as one third of the population of Sydney having had homosexual experiences (there is no far enough revolted smilie to define: a vomit one perhaps?);

the feminist crowd is massively divided upon the issue of gog and magog along the lines of clear facial markings: either you got a hairdo/tattoos/piercings/studs,rivets, and buckles, or you know better than to fall into that trap of believing in one mob being able to force another mob into hell just for the sake of looking pretty, (pretty bl**dy awful that is);

prostitution is legal and as a legal commodity there are health care regulations in place which effectively protect the whole community;

the police are still refusing to prosecute in most cases of rape, especially within families;

the rights of children have only worsened, but I believe that the feminist position openly expressed is not problematic in respect of children, but rather is problematic in respect of the rights of Husbands, and so therefore women are not appropriately supporting men to be good fathers.

That's about all that feminism seems to have amounted to; my grandmother's education is really quite as good as my own, but my heredity is of two blood lines which always supported the education of women.

I could add that Indigenous Australians had an idea, even before the English arrived, (along with all New Zealand and Pacific Islanders), that this period of time was to be one in which a feminine force would be the guide in Allah, and that through only temporary female leadership, the shaytan would all manifest as managable forevermore. But that process of female leadership has been thwarted by invasion of shaytan wanting to support a gog and magog attitude. That whole pre-existing Indigenous perspective has parallels in most feminist work.

waram