The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

[SpaceFalcon2001]

So how is Isreal going to pay for my sins?

Christians always think they can get off easy, don't they? They're not ours to pay for. The only person who can make amends for your sins (be it with HaShem or Man) is you.

Don't commit the crime if you won't do the time.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

well said. It's a lazy doctrine of salvation that makes them that way.

 

[Sinner]

Welcome back to the discussion, sinner.

Thank you for the welcome. Some of my replies may not be timely. There comes a point where my eyes get tired and I have to get away from the computer for awhile. I prefer to give questions some thought rather then just doing cut and paste jobs. Lastly, trying to 'win' an argument, as some posters here have attempted is counter productive. There comes a point where one just gives out information for others to think about and if they challenge it, one just has to kindly let them have the last word.

 

[Sinner]

Christians always think they can get off easy, don't they?

No. Christians believe that Salvation is a free gift from God based only by God's own grace, period. This does not mean we are free from the effects of sin should we sin. If I happen to be driving around carelessly in my car and I run someone over, God is not going to step in and keep me from going to prison.

SpaceFalcon2001, Mule asked what I believe is a very good question. In what way or sense has Israel paid for our transgressions (sins) if that is who Isaiah speaks of in 53:5? I also prefer to give the benefit of a doubt to God that He knew what He was doing when He inspired Isaiah to use singular pronouns, instead of plural in these passages.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;

I can't help but mention that Israel is usually refered as a "she" in Scripture.

" What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?" (Lam 2:13 KJV)

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your King comes to you; triumphant and victorious is He, humble and riding on an ass, on a colt the foal of an ass." (Zechariah 9:9 RSV)

"Have mercy upon me, O Lord; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, Thou that liftest me up from the gates of death: That I may show forth all Thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in Thy salvation." (Psalm 9:13-14 KJV)

 

[Sinner]

Another good quote from the Messiah Truth Organization

I agree with the assessment this organization gives as to what the final state of the world will be like when God steps in. I don't think the passage in Isaiah in question deals with this, for reasons I have raised. Passages like the last few chapters in Ezekiel does.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

SpaceFalcon2001, Mule asked what I believe is a very good question. In what way or sense has Israel paid for our transgressions (sins) if that is who Isaiah speaks of in 53:5?

Translation check:
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

Look it over again, he is pained because of our transgressions, this is true of every Rebbe ever known, their obvious pain causes others to repent.

Even better, let's continue on:
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.


He accepted his prayers and was appeased concerning the iniquity of all of us, that He did not destroy His world. It has long been known in Judaism that any righteous man may pray on another's behalf to help support his repentance of sin to HaShem, still nothing new.

Moving on...

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

"and their iniquities he would bear" He would bear, in the manner of all the righteous, as it is said (Num. 18:1): “You and your sons shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary.”

I also prefer to give the benefit of a doubt to God that He knew what He was doing when He inspired Isaiah to use singular pronouns, instead of plural in these passages.

Again, singulars are often used when referring to Israel. We very often use singulars when referring to a single group. Wow I just did it there!

 

[Sinner]

Look it over again, he is pained because of our transgressions, this is true of every Rebbe ever known, their obvious pain causes others to repent.

The pain of the Jewish people rarely cause others to repent. Hitler is a good case in point. He and his thugs LOVED the suffering of Jews, as do certain terrrorist today.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

The pain of the Jewish people rarely cause others to repent.

I actually was talking about a Rebbe which is a specific Jewish spritiual leader, but you raised a point.

The pain of the Jewish people does make others repent. The effects of the holocaust on the Jewish people were so terrible, it practically broke down the church's view on Jews, not to mention provided a little wake-up call for most of the world

 

[Sinner]

The only act which the world acted positively as the result of the holocaust, was the creation of the state of Israel. I firmly believe this was God's doing and not from the kindness of human hearts. The UN since then has been hostile to Israel. I dare say making and passing resolutions against Israel seems to be its number one function these days. The Catholic Church is no friend to Israel, and many liberal Protestant denominations, sad to say, are begining to act against Israeli interest as well. Anti-semitism is on the rise worldwide, especially in Europe. I think even grimmer days are ahead for the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

As always, humans have free will. Israel was not the work of HaShem anymore than my choosing to drink milk. The only Israel that will be the work of HaShem will be that of the Moshiach.

We know you just want all Jews to go to Israel so they can be converted and/or be sent to hell for eternity afterward. Such Doctarine is no friend of ours.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sinner, what's your opinion on what this fellow has said:

The priest / king of Salem was:

1) Not a Jew -- he pre-dated the covenant with Abraham, let alone Moses.

2) Since the levitical priesthood was AFTER the King of Salem and G-d told Aaron his was the only priesthood after Sinai and that it was an ETERNAL priesthood what does it matter what came before Aaron???

Yep it is not possible for a priest from Levi to be a King or a King to be a Levi.

But since they need to somehow explain that a priest made the sacrifice they grasp at the Melchitzedek straw.

Melchi-tzedek as your Xian also stated (but seemed to ignore) was not a Jew let alone a Jewish priest, ergo he could not bring a Jewish sacrifice.

Xians like to say "Abraham brought tithes to Melchitzedek." They think this because that is what the GT says. The GT gets it wrong (as it gets so much wrong). It was ABRAM, not Abraham who brought tithes to the King of Salem.

This is important bcause Abram did not yet have a covenant with HaShem.

But who IS the King of Salem? The Xians say he was some mythical being without parentage. Nonsense. Salem is Jerusalem and the King of Jerusalem (Salem) in those days was Shem, the son of Noah.

He was a g-g-g-gandfather to Abram BTW. Which also means he was a g-g-g-g-g-g(etc) grandfather to Aaron and the Levitical priests (as well as all the other tribes).

I wish Xians could get the concept of chronology!!

BTW, Melchitzedek is not a name, it is a description: righteous (tzedek) king (melchi). So all Genesis is saying is that the King of Salem was a righteous king.

The Xians further confuse things by misreading Psalm 110 where King David is called a righteous king (melchitzedek).

Tell your Xian friend to read the Tanach where it says repeatedly that ONLY the Levites, descendents of Aaron can be Jewish priests. It is an ETERNAL priesthood. These are the little details Xians tend to ignore.

]• “And they shall have the Priesthood as a statute forever, and you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.” (Ex. 29:9)

• “Bring close Aaron your brother and his sons with him from among the children of Israel to become Priests to Me [for all time].” (Exodus 28:1)

• “And anoint them as you anointed their father, that they may serve Me, and it shall be for them an appointment to an everlasting Priesthood throughout their generations.” (Exodus 40:15)

• “You and your sons with you shall keep your Priesthood. I give your Kehuna/Priesthood as a gift of service.” (Numbers 18:7)

• “It is an everlasting covenant of salt before G-d with you and with your descendants.” (Numbers 18:19)

• “And it shall be to him and to his descendants after him a covenant of everlasting Kehuna/Priesthood.” (Numbers 25:13)

• “For G-d your G-d has chosen him of all your tribes to stand and serve with the name of G-d he and his sons forever.” (Deuteronomy 18:5)

As for the Isaiah 52-53 quotes -- again you need to read the FAQ and archives on the subject of Isaiah 52-53. This gets dragged up a lot.

Ask your Xian friend if s/he speaks Hebrew. It is obvious that s/he doesn't since s/he says the singular can't be used to speak of the nation of Israel.

Torah does that all the time! Just as in English we'll say "America the Beautiful" "the" infers singular, no? Because America is a singular for the 250 million or so citizens. Just as Israel is the singular for the nation of Israel.

Israel is CLEARLY the servant as Isaiah himself states:

Isaiah 41:8-9

But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from it nobles I called you, and I said to you, “You are My servant”; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 44:1-2

Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel, whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21

Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee; thou art My servant, O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of Me.

Isaiah 45:4

For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name . . . .

Isaiah 48:20

Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.”

Isaiah 49:3

And said to me, thou art My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified!

There is one more key problem.

Nowhere in the Torah does it say that a manifestation og G-d is to be treated as though it were G-d.

To the Christian, Jesus is G-d, and there is no seperation.

So replace the word "servant" with "G-d" and "he" with "He" and ask yourself from a non-Christian point of view, does this work?

 

[mule]

The only act which the world acted positively as the result of the holocaust, was the creation of the state of Israel. I firmly believe this was God's doing and not from the kindness of human hearts. The UN since then has been hostile to Israel. I dare say making and passing resolutions against Israel seems to be its number one function these days. The Catholic Church is no friend to Israel, and many liberal Protestant denominations, sad to say, are begining to act against Israeli interest as well. Anti-semitism is on the rise worldwide, especially in Europe. I think even grimmer days are ahead for the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.

I also think that grimmer days are ahead for the Jewish people. I think too that christians are going be more persecuted as the days pass. That's how the bible reads anyways.

 

[mule]

I think that's rotten posting responses on a board which hates Christians.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think that's rotten posting Sinners responses on a board which hates Christians.

They don't hate Christians. Besides, this makes for a very informative discussion.

 

[mule]

:zip:

Nevermind.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sorry, that you're upset, however I distinctly recall you promising to do the same to one of my posts a while back.

 

[mule]

I simply do not recall posting your posts on an radical hateful conservative christian board. I would hope that I would never do that to you.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Every Christian forum is hateful to muslims. I've been on many of them, mule.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

And to Jews too. Except they often like to call us pharisees if they don't like something we say.

 

[yoshiyahu]

We know you just want all Jews to go to Israel so they can be converted and/or be sent to hell for eternity afterward. Such Doctarine is no friend of ours.

Oh come on SF2K. Do you seriously believe that is the only reason why many Christians are pro-Israel?