The Muslim World Today!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont feel the need to repeat myself like a broken record. Go back to my post and see what comment of urs i quoted.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

 

[adi8putra]

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

Hahaha, u r rite there! The Holocaust is still a relevant topic! Hmm, why dont we asked the German who started all of these Holocaust to grant the state of Israel anywhere within their own current boundary? Or perhaps to the most staunch protector of Israel, the US? When does the logics of `someone burns ur house, and to get even (or in some instances, in order to survive) u burn someone else's house' have any relevance here? Furthermore, the Zionist claims that the current state of Israel is rightly bestowed to them by God since time immemorable? Where does this argument has any validity now as in ur reference to the crusades? Please be partial in ur judgement....:rollseyes

 

[Fishman]

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

And I go to Islamic classes on mondays!

 

[Trumble]

If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

 

[جوري]

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

Sure it is relevant ... if you scroll through previous threads you'll see a post on the affairs of Muslims killing each other ... and how since the days of the messenger (PBUH) it was deeply devastating and frowned upon and we are told it would lead to eternal damnation in the hereafter...Ignorance breeds hatred and unfortunately not every Muslim out there is either observant or a scholar ... we would be deluding ourselves if we thought we were all of same class or same intellectual capabilities ...Same socioeconomic condition ... it is incumbent upon all of us to change what we can. through charity, teaching or whatever means. ... Any society muslim or not needs to work on that ... there are no utopias on earth.. you are welcome to name me one as I am in desperate need of a vacation... I digress.....However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own ... you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

 

[Trumble]

However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur.

you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

Actually, I can honestly tell you that there are none, because as far as I am aware my living blood relatives (with whom I have ever had any contact, anyway) number precisely two - my parents. I guess I argue with Mrs Trumble and scold baby Trumble on occasion, but its hardly what I'd call a "feud"!

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel.

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

 

[scentsofjannah]

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering..we do recognise also that others suffered..we donot make any attempts to present ourselves as the most tragic case or as the 'sole' sufferers of injustice..like some people do.

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

Madrassa for your information means School..it can mean a secular one teaching worldly subjects or one teaching purely reliigous sciences...and they do exist in western countries..here in the UK its estimated that about 200,000 children attend Islamic lessons in their local mosques daily.

 

[Fishman]

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering.

Don't forget what happened in China and Ethiopia.

 

[scentsofjannah]

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

how do you even dare to judge it as hypocricy when all you watch is SKY AND BBC etc?? if you want to see what the muslims are doing..turn on Arab Channels, the Islam Channel..they had many live charity appeals for many muslim countries..go to Muslim Internet sites like Islamonline.net and they did talk and report about this crisis ..see the work of the Muslim Relief Organisations there like Islamic Relief, Muslim Hands, Little Kindness -Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens charity and he also went there too along with his wife ..you have no right to call it hypocrisy..neglect..yes by the oil rich arab presidents..who even dont even care about the suffering and starving in their own backyard let alone care about other needy muslims from far away countries.

btw you remind me of many other nonmuslims who always ask me why havent the muslims condemned 911 or 77 in tired of all these questions..so i just tell them ..where were you when the mainstream news covered the muslim response the vigils the demos..the peace rallies?

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

Inshallah.
This life is but chattels of deception.
The onli thing that will matter is the hereafter.

 

[جوري]

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur..

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it... It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel."!

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

Muslims killing Muslims it is true but, Muslims are also saving non-msulims, where there was indeed a political conflict and without the help of westerners .... I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? .... There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews,”

“I know people in America think Muslims are terrorists, but for Rwandans they were our freedom fighters during the genocide,” said Jean Pierre Sagahutu, 37, a Tutsi who converted to Islam from Catholicism after his father and nine other members of his family were slaughtered, the paper reported.

“I wanted to hide in a church, but that was the worst place to go. Instead, a Muslim family took me. They saved my life.”
these aren't my words you can check the washington post archives.. washington post from my previous reading of it is one most strident with anti-Islamic articles yet
The Post quoted Habimana, the chief mufti in Rwanda saying: “Islam fits into the fabric of our society. It helps those who are in poverty. It preaches against behaviors that create AIDS. It offers education in the Koran and Arabic when there is not a lot of education being offered. I think people can relate to Islam. They are converting as a sign of appreciation to the Muslim community who sheltered them during the genocide.”

 

[catmando]

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

I brought the Holocaust up for a reason. To show that Muslims haven't really suffered like some others have. Muslims don't fit the profile of being victims nearly as well as others do.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We dont intend to say that to anyone however u may take it. It is true not only Muslims have suffered, but whether it be little or not.. they have always suffered from the start. Same with others as well. Why would we deny it. Its hardly possible.

 

[Trumble]

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it...

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find

The conflict concerns the rebel forces of Darfur which the Sudan government has labeled as insurgents and the government-controlled Janjaweed.

There has been a series of military dictatorships since 1958, and following independence in 1956, the Sudanese government acquired a strong Arab character. The First Sudanese Civil War, between the Muslim government and the mostly non-Muslim population of the southern Sudan, began in 1955 and ended with the 1972 Addis Ababa Accords. In 1983, the Second Sudanese Civil War ensued when the president declared Sharia law in the south. Peace conferences in 2005 ended the 21-year civil war and produced an agreement under which state revenues — oil money in particular — would be shared between the government and the southern rebel groups.

In early 2003, two local rebel groups — the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) — accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs in favor of Arabs. The SLM is generally associated with the Fur and Masalit, while the JEM is associated with the Zaghawa of the northern half of Darfur.

There is also an eastern front in Sudan. The Eastern Front was set up in 2004 as an alliance between two eastern tribal rebel groups, the Rashaida tribe's Free Lions and the Beja Congress. They were later joined by the Darfuri Justice and Equality Movement (JEM).

Hassan al-Turabi was put in jail in March 2004 in connection with an alleged coup plot linked with JEM, [8] [9] but denies supporting JEM. [10] However, al-Turabi blames the government for "aggravating the situation." The government dropped charges on December 3, 2004...

It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?

I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? ....

It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.

There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews

Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

 

[جوري]

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find






No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?




Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?



It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.



Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

Yup sorry about dafur I confused it with a town in Iraq.. my bad....
Rwanda was ignored but there were those who helped I hazard say the same people who appear to be the focus as the conflict in most situtions... Now with that behinde us.... I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

 

[Trumble]

I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

 

[جوري]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Thank you.... I appreciate your well wishes... I am shivering and it is the height of summer...:exhausted

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oo0o sounds bad..feel better