The nature of (monotheistic) religion - an atheist's perspective

[Pygoscelis]

I do see an ancestry of ideas from Christianity to liberal humanism in the UK. Jesus in particular is an amazing figure simply as a moral philosopher, whether you're religious or not.

As the speaker of the sermon on the mount, yes.

As a the central figure of vicarious redemption, no.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

your friend needs desperate courses in islamic history.

tell him to pick up any historical document of repute regarding the islamic state during the reign of the rightly guided caliphas (Abu Bakr,Umar,Uthman,Ali) and to point out how it was "tamed by secularists" because justice was so rampant it was said an animal wouldn't move out of turn.

 

[Pygoscelis]

your friend needs desperate courses in islamic history.

tell him to pick up any historical document of repute regarding the islamic state during the reign of the rightly guided caliphas (Abu Bakr,Umar,Uthman,Ali) and to point out how it was "tamed by secularists" because justice was so rampant it was said an animal wouldn't move out of turn.

Perhaps he should. But perhaps the "Justice" he finds there may still not look Just to him.

Without the tolerance and legal restriction imposed by secular society and thinking, Christianity and Islam would still be rampant in stoning, flogging and persecuting those it considers 'unfit' or not religious enough.

Was any of this going on within the islamic state during the reign of the rightly guided caliphas?

 

[greenhill]

About the slaughter in Abraham's (pbuh) case, it was a test for him on his covenant with Allah that was called upon. We also have this test, but we all face it in very different ways, especially tougher because we are not told what our trials are and Allah just tests our resolve. Abraham (pbuh) was told.

On the friend's matter, humans tend to corrupt. Bottom-line is, a person with lower moral values WILL take advantage of a person with higher moral values, especially if they depended on each other. Eventually, more and more will lower their own values in order to get ahead in this world. Hence, the situation we have now. Those who would campaign for change, incite radical awakenings that leads to explosion of changes from individual through to societal values. And power corrupts.

It will be difficult to 'gel' islam in this materialistic world because the intention is already off tangent. The impatient ones will always overrule the patient.

Personally, if there was a place that had the Caliphate system, I, without hesitation will find my way there. It has the perfect chance of being the most ideal place on earth. Bye bye Secularism. I'll take my chances.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Independent;

I just don't agree the modern world is such a bad place. I'm very grateful to it for many things.

For modern medicine, which saved my life twice by the age of 13. For my eyesight, which is now far better than Nature intended. And, amongst other inventions, for my dishwasher.

You seemed to answer my post in a secular way by recognizing your own needs, and satisfying your own needs. You declined to comment on the twenty thousand children who die every single day from grinding poverty and starvation. These children are invisible in this world, they die quietly without disturbing the conscious of the people who have everything.

If we choose to recognize the needs of these children it would encourage us to do something.

God is about justice for all people, we should put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third. In this very secular world we would get taken advantage of and suffer if we clung to this world view of God first.

In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor and oppressed.

Eric

 

[Independent]

You seemed to answer my post in a secular way by recognizing your own needs

Yes but even as a random of sample of one (me) it demonstrates how many good things have happened. I am a typical example of someone who would not be alive today but for modern medicine. If you ask around, you'll be amazed how many other people you know personally would also be dead before the age of thirty, had we all lived a few hundred years ago. This is amazing.

Even in places like Africa, where the diseases of poverty are still rampant, many other historical diseases which once crippled the development of sub-Saharan countries, have been contained. There are far more people alive in Africa today than ever before because of that work.

If you say the modern world is full of injustice and inequality I wouldn't disagree with you - I just don't think the past was any better (and very often it was much worse).

 

[Pygoscelis]

About the slaughter in Abraham's (pbuh) case, it was a test for him on his covenant with Allah that was called upon.

It was one of the more blatant cases of obedience trumping morality.

 

[greenhill]

I just don't agree the modern world is such a bad place. I'm very grateful to it for many things.

I don't disagree with you on this. In fact, the modern world is a fantastic place. It's also full of challenges and temptations as well as convenience and technological support.

The problem lies with us. That instead of being appreciative and supportive, we have become demanding and take things for granted. Like JFK saying 'ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country' (or words to the effect) seems pretty out of date now (and that is not too long ago!) It is all about the 'self' now. What's in it for me?

As I was saying earlier, those impatient people wanting 'action' often will go out of their way to get their agenda to the fore at the expense of unity. It is not the Deen or belief that is to blame, it is the interpretation of what action to take. Like what Jesus said about 'let those without sin cast the first stone', has its reasons. But quite often, these reasons are overlooked and the people get carried away with promoting extreme sense of justice. Suddenly, it becomes the 'norm'.

In short, I would not say that religion promotes violence, but instead promotes peace. But in order to have peace, there must be threats of punishment for those who do not adhere, but not necessarily needing to be carried out to the letter of the law. It would be silly to cut of the hand of someone who steals bread for the first time because he was starving, for example. If he is a repeat offender then the matter should be weighed in context of what he stole and for what purpose etc before deciding on the most appropriate action.

Peace

 

[Hulk]

Secularism is anti-religion under the guise of neutrality.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you greenhill;

It would be silly to cut of the hand of someone who steals bread for the first time because he was starving, for example.

Agreed.

If he is a repeat offender then the matter should be weighed in context of what he stole and for what purpose etc before deciding on the most appropriate action.

If he was starving last month, the chances are he will still be starving today, the man needs food for himself and his family; the best course of action would be to give him a job.

There are a billion people earning less than a dollar a day, twenty thousand children die of grinding poverty and starvation every day, the majority would welcome the opportunity to earn a living wage.

In the spirit of praying for the poor and oppressed.

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Originally Posted by greenhill

About the slaughter in Abraham's (pbuh) case, it was a test for him on his covenant with Allah that was called upon.

Pygoscelis;
It was one of the more blatant cases of obedience trumping morality.

If you feel God’s intentions are evil, then this is what you will find, if you believe God is a force for a greatest good, then this can also be found in the same scriptures.

Abraham trusted God, when God had said to him, your descendants will be as great as the numbers of stars you could count in the sky.

When God later commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Abraham trusted in God’s promise that he would have many descendants. In order to believe this, Abraham would have to trust that God could somehow restore his son to life.

It was never God’s intention that Isaac should die, and Abraham must have believed this.

This is a different message from me saying that God wants me to kill prostitutes because they are evil, or God wants me to torture and kill people of other faiths.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God

Eric

 

[greenhill]

As I see it, the most dangerous thing about the Abrahamic religions is its potential to get people to subdue their sense of morality and replace it with an obedience to authority, what they believe is "God".

The concern is that people may be convinced to do things they would otherwise hesitate to do, such as killing..... and.....may even do it with great pride, if they somehow come to think God wants it. I think that kind of complete farming out of one's moral compass to religion, or other dangerous ideologies (it isn't just religion that can do this), is pretty rare though.

Glad you said it pretty rare. The extremists will always exist. Judge not the Deen by the portrayals of the extremists. You have a mind. A very sceptical one at that, you won't fall for those 'ploys'. Generally what you described touches not the real message of islam as we have it in this day and age. Not that it has changed, as nothing much has changed, but varieties exists and a better understanding of it now. If you can see the picture, I have feelings that you will be an ardent promoter.

 

[Pygoscelis]

When God later commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Abraham trusted in God’s promise that he would have many descendants. In order to believe this, Abraham would have to trust that God could somehow restore his son to life.

Or Abraham could simply have another son.

It was never God’s intention that Isaac should die, and Abraham must have believed this.

You say that now. It doesn't say that in the bible.

A proper moral ending to the story of Abraham and Isaac would have been Abraham saying something like "No. I will not kill my son. You have taught me that killing is wrong" and God saying he passed the test. Or at least Abraham saying he knows this demand to kill his son is a ruse and that he knows God won't actually have him harm his son. But a dishonest God playing such a ruse would also go against the claim of God being good.

I also note that this is not the only case in the Bible of obedience trumping morality. It is the most common theme in the book. The first commandment isn't "Be good to your fellow man". It is "Thou shalt have no God before me". The rest of the ten commandents are as much about obedience as morality.

Adam and Eve are told not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Since they hadn't eaten the fruit yet they could not have had any moral sense of whether or not eating the food and obeying God is good. Obedience is supreme here. In fact God appears to be demanding that they not learn right from wrong. Only the snake seems to be doing the right thing and telling them they should eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and thus gain the potential to be moral creatures.

The theme runs on and on through the bible. The tower of Babel is another story about obedience and power. The story of Job shows God showing off at how he can get Job to obey him even as he abuses him. Job will not stand up to God's abuse. The story of Christ is about vicarious redemption, that good and bad actions are secondary to belief and following Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and that there is no personal responsibility for your actions so long as you turn to God in the end. Except of course if you engage in blasphemy and speak against God - that is unforgivable.

Satan is not noted in the bible as doing much wrong besides turning against God. We don't get stories about how Satan flooded the world or did genocide etc. We only get stories about how he opposes God, and because of this mere opposition we are to declare him the greatest evil.

And it goes on and on. Obedience over morality every time along the way.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis; you raise many questions, I would like to respond to just one.

The first commandment isn't "Be good to your fellow man". It is "Thou shalt have no God before me".

The first commandment on its own is not the greatest commandment, the greatest commandments have a far deeper meaning than just be good to your fellow man.

Mark 12.
The greatest commandment
‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
29 ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”[f] 31 The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”[g] There is no commandment greater than these.’

The rest of the ten commandents are as much about obedience as morality.

If by any remote chance God knows more about justice and morality than we do, then it would be worth striving to obey God.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God

Eric