The "Paraclete"

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They is only one conclusion I can see.

We Muslims base our belief on the Quran being the True word of Allaah(swt).

Christians believe the Bible is the True word of God(swt).

We can not/nor will we agree upon a single source acceptable for both of us.

Simple fact one of us is correct, one of us is in error.

All we can do is come to the understanding that our beliefs do not agree and accept our differences, agreeing only to disagree in a peaceful manner.

This thread has no future, except to demonstrate it is possible for us to disagree without hate.

I will close this thread some time today. So post your final comments now.
 
Sorry for your offense, sister. I'll attempt to say what I believe Fivesolas is saying in a (hopeful) less problematic manner.

If a person were to be adept in...

1) Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek
2) Second Temple Judaism, specifically the prevailing views of the Holy Spirit and the messianic age
3) Early Jewish Christianity
4) The OT and NT texts

and this person were to look at the "paraclete" passages without having ANY information about Islam at all...is it very likely that this person would come to the conclusion that the "paraclete" of whom Jesus spoke was a particular human being in the future named Muhammad, using all the tools at her disposal?

If not, what does that mean?
 
Woodrow:
This thread has no future, except to demonstrate it is possible for us to disagree without hate.

I will close this thread some time today. So post your final comments now.

What?!? Is this because of Fivesolas statement? Things seemed to be going just fine until then. Sheesh...

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Woodrow:
This is only one conclusion I can see.
We Muslims base our belief on the Quran being the True word of Allaah(swt).
Christians believe the Bible is the True word of God(swt).
We can not/nor will we agree upon a single source acceptable for both of us.
Simple fact one of us is correct, one of us is in error.
All we can do is come to the understanding that our beliefs do not agree and accept our differences, agreeing only to disagree in a peaceful manner.

Some things:
1) What I've been discussing has nothing to do with Christian or Muslim belief in their holy texts. The issue is specificallly about looking at what the Quran asserts about the Holy Spirit in contrast to what we know about Second Temple JUDAISM and it's claims about the Holy Spirit. This is now Christian Bible vs Quran issue at all.

2) No one is talking about using a "single source". I'm advocating bringing all the information to bear that we have on this issue. Surely, that's how scholarly, informed dialogue takes place. None of us do this to participate in some ideological echo chamber, right?

3) It's one thing to understand and respect differences...and agreeing to disagree agreeably. Of course, I'm all for that. It's another thing to look at those differences from a self-critical standpoint (on all sides) to see where those differences may be coming from. That's what I was trying to do here.

I humbly and respectfully ask that you refrain from closing this thread down today. If we want to censor offensiveness, I'm all for that. That's what Admins are for. But I would hope that we would let this thread "peter out" like the other ones do from lack of interest...not because of some other stuff.
 
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YieldedOne said:
If a person were to be adept in...

1) Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek
2) Second Temple Judaism, specifically the prevailing views of the Holy Spirit and the messianic age
3) Early Jewish Christianity
4) The OT and NT texts

and this person were to look at the "paraclete" passages without having ANY information about Islam at all...is it very likely that this person would come to the conclusion that the "paraclete" of whom Jesus spoke was a particular human being in the future named Muhammad, using all the tools at her disposal?
Click to expand...

An unbiased YES!
 
Woodrow said:
They is only one conclusion I can see.

We Muslims base our belief on the Quran being the True word of Allaah(swt).

Christians believe the Bible is the True word of God(swt).

We can not/nor will we agree upon a single source acceptable for both of us.

Simple fact one of us is correct, one of us is in error.

All we can do is come to the understanding that our beliefs do not agree and accept our differences, agreeing only to disagree in a peaceful manner.

This thread has no future, except to demonstrate it is possible for us to disagree without hate.

I will close this thread some time today. So post your final comments now.
Click to expand...

I agree. The topic is at an impasse. I would think that an in-person dialogue would be different. Maybe not. I hope to find out soon though.
 
Peacelover:
An unbiased YES!

Ok, sister. Could you justify your answer? Meaning can you show me from your understanding of the prevailing Second Temple Judaism view of the Holy Spirit and messianism, the paraclete statements of Jesus, and your understanding of the initial message of the very first Jewish Christians...how that's the case? I'm open, willing, and ready to hear this. (Hopefully, this thread will be open long enough FOR me to hear it. :D )
 
Fivesolas said:
Wasn't meant to be. Humility should teach us all, I include myself, that it is possible to mishandle and twist the meaning of Scripture.
Click to expand...

Ohh..i just saw this...It's Absolutely Fine :)
 
Plus we have evidence from the Scriptures...

"Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you …." (Surah Ale Imran 3:64)

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him." (Leviticus 19:17)

With Peace.
 
I think the main thing to be explored is that there seem to be absolutely NO Jewish sources that I can find (Talmudic, Midrashic or otherwise) that indicate that the Holy Spirit of God is nothing more or less than any individual angel. Absolutely nothing. Again, if Judaism and Islam are much closer theologically than Judaism and Christianity, then one would EXPECT at least something...somewhere...along these lines to be said. Especially since Islam is deeply based on Judaic concepts. But there isn't anything. Not one little bit. Not anywhere in earliest Jewish Christianity either. Nuthin'.

But then all of a sudden, it shows up in Islam. Just "poof" and it's there.

Not only THAT...but coincidentially the "Breath of God" (which, as far as creative, life-giving, God-borne reality, IS consonant with the Jewish belief about the Spirit of God) is in the Quran...but simply NOT called the Holy Spirit and that title is assigned to an angel.

Doesn't that make anyone wonder what's going on? Just a little bit? :?

I feel like this ties to the "paraclete" discussion insofar as the Jewish Christian idea of the "paraclete" is directly related to their Jewish (messianic) understanding of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Heh. Oh well. If anyone has any helpful resources or thoughts on this, I'd sure appreciate it.

TTFN.

:thankyou:
 
I believe this thread has served it's purpose and well demonstrated that it is possible to agree to disagree without hate or malice.

We will believe as we do and you will believe as you do. We have no common acceptable sources, further debate on this matter is pointless.


Let us close in Peace.

:threadclo:
 
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