YieldedOne
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YO:Let's put it like this. The whole argument about Muhammad being the "Prophet" like unto Moses that Moses talks about in Deuteronomy (a prophecy about the future) is BASED UPON the God's Holy Spirit of Prophecy working upon Moses when he uttered that. You take away the Spirit of God from Moses...then you HAVE to deny that whole argument as being truly prophetic, even Judaically speaking!
Woodrow: Which would put you in agreement with us that what remains of the scriptures may not be what God(swt) revealed. i have no problem in believing that it is not a good source of proof, unless it is also repeated in the Qur'an in some form. However, the argument for using it is to show that even what Christians profess to be true, is an argument to validate Muhammad(PBUH) as being the Prophecised paraclete.
Hmm... All I meant to say was that even Muslims have to have a certain "Judaic" view of what the Holy Spirit does if they want to maintain the "Prophet like unto Moses" argument. That's all.
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YO: At any rate, the paraclete passages in John make SENSE in light of what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Basically, Jesus as Prophet and Chosen of God had the authority to "pass on" the Spirit of Wisdom that worked within him to those whom he so chose...the Spirit that would further reveal God's Truth, Wisdom, and Power to those who followed him. It makes SENSE once you put it all together.
Woodrow: Not necessarily as the majority of the Jews did not believe what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Christianity came about because the gentiles (Non-Jews) accepted the non-Jewish teachings of some of the early Christian founders. Paul gained his following through non-Jews as he predominantly preached to the gentiles.
I can show that not to be true. Right here and right now. From the "Gentiles and the Holy Spirit" section of the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on the Holy Spirit....
A very ancient source (Sifre, Deut. 175) explains, on the basis of Deut. xviii. 15, that in the Holy Land the gift of prophecy is not granted to the heathen or in the interest of the heathen, nor is it given outside of Palestine even to Jews. In the Messianic time, however, the Holy Spirit will, according to Joel ii. 28, 29, be poured out upon all Israel; i.e., all the people will be prophets (Num. R. xv., end). According to the remarkable statement of Tanna debe Eliyahu, ed. Friedmann, the Holy Spirit will be poured out equally upon Jews and pagans, both men and women, freemen and slaves.
Now, let's look VERY, VERY closely what the what Peter says at Pentecost in this link. I'm only going to put a little of his sermon, but I'd recommend reading it all. Please note that Peter's primary audience are JEWISH ADHERENTS. Very important.
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When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
--------------------------
It's a COMPLETELY JEWISH CLAIM that Peter is making based on a COMPLETELY JEWISH UNDERSTANDING of how the Holy Spirit worked! No Gentile understanding involved.
There's absolutely NO denying this, to be sure. Not if we are simply being intellectually honest with the biblical data.
Well, Woodrow?
Woodrow: Which would put you in agreement with us that what remains of the scriptures may not be what God(swt) revealed. i have no problem in believing that it is not a good source of proof, unless it is also repeated in the Qur'an in some form. However, the argument for using it is to show that even what Christians profess to be true, is an argument to validate Muhammad(PBUH) as being the Prophecised paraclete.
Hmm... All I meant to say was that even Muslims have to have a certain "Judaic" view of what the Holy Spirit does if they want to maintain the "Prophet like unto Moses" argument. That's all.
*******************************
YO: At any rate, the paraclete passages in John make SENSE in light of what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Basically, Jesus as Prophet and Chosen of God had the authority to "pass on" the Spirit of Wisdom that worked within him to those whom he so chose...the Spirit that would further reveal God's Truth, Wisdom, and Power to those who followed him. It makes SENSE once you put it all together.
Woodrow: Not necessarily as the majority of the Jews did not believe what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Christianity came about because the gentiles (Non-Jews) accepted the non-Jewish teachings of some of the early Christian founders. Paul gained his following through non-Jews as he predominantly preached to the gentiles.
I can show that not to be true. Right here and right now. From the "Gentiles and the Holy Spirit" section of the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on the Holy Spirit....
A very ancient source (Sifre, Deut. 175) explains, on the basis of Deut. xviii. 15, that in the Holy Land the gift of prophecy is not granted to the heathen or in the interest of the heathen, nor is it given outside of Palestine even to Jews. In the Messianic time, however, the Holy Spirit will, according to Joel ii. 28, 29, be poured out upon all Israel; i.e., all the people will be prophets (Num. R. xv., end). According to the remarkable statement of Tanna debe Eliyahu, ed. Friedmann, the Holy Spirit will be poured out equally upon Jews and pagans, both men and women, freemen and slaves.
Now, let's look VERY, VERY closely what the what Peter says at Pentecost in this link. I'm only going to put a little of his sermon, but I'd recommend reading it all. Please note that Peter's primary audience are JEWISH ADHERENTS. Very important.
-------------------
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
--------------------------
It's a COMPLETELY JEWISH CLAIM that Peter is making based on a COMPLETELY JEWISH UNDERSTANDING of how the Holy Spirit worked! No Gentile understanding involved.
There's absolutely NO denying this, to be sure. Not if we are simply being intellectually honest with the biblical data.
Well, Woodrow?
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