The scientific miracles of the Quran.

[skhalid]

Jazakallah sista...oooh ma eyes are killing me after reading all that..but it was worth my time!!!
Ahsante

 

[جوري]

Excuse me in advance if I'll make some mistakes as I cannot correct my posts yet because I'm a newcomer on this forum..

You can always make an extra post to correct gross error...

The "a" is not a consonant but a vowel. .

Thanks for mentioning that after we posted it ( the damma, kasra, fatiha, sukuon etc) You are so useful

Where do I see it? I must say I find that question very strange if you can write and read Arabic..

The question was per your misusage (not mine) .. you are the one who inserted an A which stands for an (Alif) not a fatiha and certainly not a noon for (N) which everyone can plainly see how the word ends! Don't tread into territories that are clearly over your head!

The "a" is the fatHa at the end of muusi3uuna..

that is earth shattering.. especially after we have already mentioned it!

(you must have noticed that I transcribe emphatics with a capital letter and I duplicate long vowels. I use the same "3" as you do for 3ayn).

and you learned that from which dictionary? I challenge you to find a dictionary that uses a number in place of a consonant.

Who said there is an alif at the end? I don't see any. Again I find that remark of yours rather strange..

what was the A doing in there? That is what an (A) symbolizes-- which you called a silent A! an Alif symbolizes an (A) not a fatiha.. since you are such a connoisseur we'd expect that you'd not make such a blatant mistake... especially for one down with the lingo and substituting consonants for numbers like such a pro..

You must be joking. There are six plain vowels in Classical Arabic "a", "i" and "u" and their long versions. Besides you find diphtongs which combine two vowels and two semi-consonants which can be either a consonant or a vowel, the "w" and the "y"..

There are no vowels in the form of alphabet consonants, we use them to substitute consonants but they are not found in the Arabic Alphabet! or as you have used! further your misusage of a fati'7a is even more amusing for what is the point of putting a fati7a and calling it silent? when silence comes only from sukon? .. Here is a little lesson for you, you can use it in your next post and claim it your own!
Damma ُ Damma is an apostrophe-like shape written above the consonant which precedes it in pronunciation. It represents a short vowel u (like the "u" in "but"). u بُت but
Wāw و Wāw is the long vowel ū (like the "oo" in "moon"). It also represents the consonant w. When Waw is used to represent the long vowel, damma appears above the preceding consonant. ū بُوت būt
Fatha َ Fatha is a diagonal stroke written above the consonant which precedes it in pronunciation. It represents a short vowel a (a little like the "u" in "but"; a short "ah" sound). a بَت bat
Alif ا Alif is the long vowel ā (a long "ahh" sound as in English "father"). ā بات bāt
Kasra ِ Kasra is a diagonal stroke written below the consonant which precedes it in pronunciation. It represents a short vowel i (like the "i" in English "pit"). i بِت bit
Ya' ي Ya' is the long vowel ī (like the "ee" in English "sheep"). It also represents the consonant y. When Ya' is used to represent the long vowel, kasra appears above the preceding consonant. ī بِيت bīt
Sukūn ْ Whenever a consonant does not have a vowel, it receives a mark called a sukūn, a small circle which represents the end of a closed syllable (CvC or CvvC). It sits above the letter which is not followed by a vowel. بِنْتُ bintu
Shadda (or tashdīd) ّ Shadda represents doubling (or gemination) of a consonant. Where the same consonant occurs twice in a word, with no vowel between, instead of using consonant + sukūn + consonant, the consonant is written only once, and shadda is written above it. ثَبَّتَ thabbata

so we wouldn't use an A where a fatiha would be. Hope we are clear on that?

Have you forgotten that you have used that letter in your post? Here it is: "lamowso3oon"..

I deliberately used a number... I know how to use it-- That is what happens when someone completely musters Arabic and can play with it. No translator or dictionary would use that in a place of an actual English consonant though! and it is such a conundrum to me-- since I know you don't speak Arabic or understand it, or have gone to a respectful source for your incandescent translation!

If you know anything about transcription you must know that some Arabic sounds do not exist in the Western languages. So there are no way to type them properly with Western keyboards. The number "3" has been chosen by many for convenience's sake for the Arabic 3ayn because it looks similar to that Arabic letter. .

and you have chosen it because you are an expert or because you are a plagiarizer of my work as you have just admitted I used it in mine first? or the most logical you ran into one of your little buddies who gave you an explanation to your liking?

If an Arabic word contains a 3ayn I must write it as many times that word is used. I cannot drop a letter (especially a consonant) just because it would hurt somebody's eye..

Sure you can.. no respectful dictionary uses a number as you have presented. you would in fact use a vowel in its stead! such as with this brief illustration:
instead of 3mar you'd write Omar
instead of 3imad you'd write Imad
instead of 3la'a you'd write Ala'a
you see easily A, O, and I replace that one letter. which you don't have in your alphabet.
and that is how it would be would be in any dictionary.. which again leads me to believe you've used the source of your interest, not a respectful source, but one say who uses the "vulgar tongue"?

I don't understand what you mean..

Which part was hard for you?

We all know that. Dictionaries and scholarly works use ALA-LC or DIN romanization systems for example..

Really?

I got what you call "my preferred definition" from the Arabic grammar and the Hans Wehr dictionary among others..

lol---You are full of **** .. as this definition isn't found in any dictionary especially with the usage of number. I have already given three other sources. One Pooya Ali from the noble Quran. Al-mawrid with ISBN from Amazon with which page number to look, as well as an online dictionary-- sakhr--all using the word Expand... none use your preferred definition a (3) for a 3yn oh learned on!

Are you projecting? Attributing to me what you think of yourself?.

Are you suffering from Klüver-Bucy Syndrome? I am just calling it like I see it!

I don't see where there is an embarrassment.

You must have really thick skin, which is admirable

 

[جوري]

I don't see any point for refutation. We have the Arabic Quran as the basis for discussion.

No one can have the Quran say another thing than what it says.

We have already posted from the Quran as the source

and provided a ready link
http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

click on the sura and the aya number and on Pooya/M.A. Ali Engl. Commentary and you'll see he says the exact same thing as Yahya's page... No sense beating a dead horse!
This topic has been discussed Ad nauseam, if you are having difficulty understanding Arabic or discerning the meaning of words that don't agree with your definition as you conceive it to be-- or wish it to be-- Maybe it is all falling on your blind spot who knows--- but that is your problem, not ours!


peace!

 

[Cyril]

You are full of **** .. as this definition isn't found in any dictionary especially with the usage of number. I have already given three other sources. One Pooya Ali from the noble Quran. Al-mawrid with ISBN from Amazon with which page number to look, as well as an online dictionary-- sakhr--all using the word Expand... none use your preferred definition a (3) for a 3yn oh learned on!

I still don't know exactly what you call "your preferred definition".

To remind you here is what I wrote: "That is the literal meaning. Most translators prefer to translate by a verb like to expand or to spread out."

The only thing I was arguing about is that the Quran does not indicate whether the "expanding" is instantaneous or continuous.

Some honest translators who think the process is continuous, add a "steadily" in brackets to show that it is not in the Quran but it is their added interpretation.

I did not understand too your allusions to some "buddies" I am supposed to get help from. If you could explain.

Btw I thank you for your lesson in Arabic script. But I did not need it as I learned it a long time ago from Farsi.

 

[جوري]

I still don't know exactly what you call "your preferred definition"..

Anything you use in (expanding') stead, to make a moot point!

To remind you here is what I wrote: "That is the literal meaning. Most translators prefer to translate by a verb like to expand or to spread out.".

& I question how you know what the literal meaning is? When we have given you other sources including one from the actual quran commentary and not some random webpage I quote


([Pooya/Ali Commentary 51:47]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Although the frontiers of space are confined, they are not fixed. They can be expanded.)

and a link for you to check for yourself lest you think we are making it up.
As a side note I have profound deep respect for marmaduke pickthall , though Arabic wasn't his native tongue, he still made an effort to learn, leaving his social status and life style behind for the sake of Allah.. still there are much better translators that have come since... and I find it strange, that when presented with appropriate translation, You or anyone else with doubt would rather label one translator honest or dishonest out of whim rather than solid facts!

Words are powerful.. they will always stand powerful in Arabic, and is incumbent on people to make an effort to understand it if not in original tongue then as close as transliteration as possible. I make the analogy of
Pyridostigmine which might sound like physostigmine, they might even fall under the same class of cholinomimetics yet we use one for Mysthenia gravis, while we use the other one for glaucoma... if not careful lots more can be lost than meaning in the translation..

The only thing I was arguing about is that the Quran does not indicate whether the "expanding" is instantaneous or continuous..

Well now you know from various sources.

Some honest translators who think the process is continuous, add a "steadily" in brackets to show that it is not in the Quran but it is their added interpretation..

Until you can get some dexterity on Arabic I'd not call it (their added interpretation)

I am going to show you what a tedious effort it is to translate.. it isn't a peace of cake. There can never be on word to equate with another, especially with a language as difficult as Arabic.. the second most difficult in the world after Chinese.
In this sura I use as an example you can see how it takes a translator several words to mean just two .


بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ


وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1} as you can see two words ( anazi3aat gharqan)

Pickthal used 7 to denote what that means.
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2} (wanashetat nashtan)

two words Picktal again uses 4
[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3} (wasabi7at sab7an)

two words pickthal uses 5
[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4} (fasabiqat sabqan) again two words

pickthal uses 4
[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا }
(falmodaberat amran)

two words pickthal uses 6


[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,

All of them perfectly fluid in Arabic, in meaning, context, style and rhyme.. cannot be made so in English... Pickthal like others, made an honest effort.. but it is clearly not the same thing.. hence we call it transliteration not translation.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp85rYCmd78[/media]

00 Quran 19 suret An'azi3at(2).mp3 ( 2835 KB ):
http://download.yousendit.com/50C4D43249DCB442

upload courtesy of bros. fi sabililah -- for ones who wish to listen to how simply it flows flawlessly like every sura in the Quran.

I did not understand too your allusions to some "buddies" I am supposed to get help from. If you could explain. .

Usage of numbers (3), (7), (5), (6).. isn't at all used in dictionaries, When you use it, I can safely assume, you have run to some person to do your research not a respectful dictionary!
as these numberes aren't readily used even by common folk, my mom though fluent in Arabic wouldn't know what these numbers are used to denote, SO how can you? You'd have to be an Arabic speaker, or have been offered the translation of your choice courtesy of someone who is down with modern spins used to substitute for consonants not available in the English alphabet!

Btw I thank you for your lesson in Arabic script. But I did not need it as I learned it a long time ago from Farsi.

You are most welcome! Farsi and Arabic are two different languages.. can everyone who speaks English, be as well fluent in french on the account they share an alphabet?

peace

 

[Quruxbadaan]

Of course.



Yes, I know what illiterate means. I know that Mohammed's political achievements alone identify him as a genius, and that while illiterate he certainly would have spoken to people from a wide variety of backgrounds. I know that that same knowledge would have resided in all centres of learning between Rome and India, and a great many people who generally resided or travelled elsewhere would have been exposed to it via others particularly when it may well have been 'common knowledge'. I also know that there is no evidence at all that, outside of such centres of learning, the general opinion was that the world was flat - there is simply no evidence to support that. It is just assumed in the hope it will slip under the reader's radar amidst memories of old movies about Christopher Columbus.

The idea that Mohammed's Mecca was somehow isolated in some bubble from the rest of the world simply isn't credible. If anything, it's rather insulting to its inhabitants. It was a trading town, on the route from Southern Arabia and even India to the Byzantine (and previously Roman) empires, not to mention assorted other places.




Yup, "in the 1st century". Not the seventh - see above.

I hope you will consider my comments in the same way. Anyway, that is enough on this; I've been here far too often before and just ended up going around in circles. Do take care yourself, too. I admire your strength of belief and faith, and I'm sure it has much more secure foundations than the pen of Mr Yahya! I really hope so.

salaam


I truly dont see the point in this argument at all between the both of you

It is well known and very well documented that it has been the belief of many people long before islam that the earth was flat in form

I dont see the point in arguing otherwise its nonsence to do so

maa salaama

 

[thirdwatch512]

You are very under educated... I hazard say even in your own bible... so DON'T come arguing Islam when the very basics of your own religion.. you ignore!
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God.

Maybe your priest can absolve you.. who knows maybe he can speak on your behalf on the day of judgement or maybe he can become your "Sin Eater"?...



Good night!

ok first off.. why is it that you ALWAYS try to bash me for being a homosexual? it seems that in ANY topic, no matter what it is, you find a way to go off topic and bash me. and i just don't understand why.

now as for the verses..

you quoted two from leviticus.. from a christian perspective, torah has 3 types of laws.. moral, Ceremonial, and Civil. as a christian, we use the Moral laws (which are basically what is right and wrong), but not the others. and we consider the leviticus ones you have posted to be Civil, and not Moral. therefore, i could case less about those verses.

then you show 1 corinthians 6:9-10.. you show a version that say "nor homosexuals." well, just like arabic translated in English, there will be problems with the translation.

"homosexuals" isn't what the word is supposed to mean. in fact, "Homosexual" wasn't even a word in Greek!

what the word really means, is lust.. of any type.

then you quote Romans 1:26-28 .. these verses are taliing about priests, and how they act.

the Bible condemns lust, yes.. no doubt. but it doesn't condemn two loving, consenting people who just want to love each others.

and to the members who are blatantly saying that Catholic Priests rape children and such.. YOU CAN'T STEREOTYPE AN ENTIRE DENOMINATION BY THE ACTIONS OF A FEW. i promise you, that if i went and said "all muslims are terrorists" or "oh, we better not get near that muslim, they might blow us up" i would be banned immediately, and i would have every right to be. why? because that's stereotyping an entire religion by the actions of a few. so what makes you guys think that you are all superior and can do a such?

the Catholic Church has STRONGLY condemned the acts of priests who have done so. ANY time there's a report of a priest molesting someone, the priest is IMMEDIATLY temporarily taken away His priesthood. he is then investigated by government authorities, and the Church itself. if he is guilty, then he is automatically excommunicated from the Church immediately.

purestambrosia - i don't find it pleasing that you can go and bash me simply because of who I am. if you don't approve of it, then fine. but that's no reason to harass me publically to get back at me. if you want to discuss my life, PM me. i will be happy to talk about it on PM. but please, don't publically humiliate me because you find it amusing.

 

[جوري]

I am sorry!.. I don't approve of your life style but it was wrong of me to bring it up--you can ask a mod to remove the posts!

 

[Philosopher]

LOL Cyril and thirdwatch got owned hard

 

[thirdwatch512]

You're purposelly trying to avoid the issue aren't you? I never said Jesus was son of Moses, i mentioned them both specifically to show you that they did many miracles.

but you said that Jesus was the son of Mary and moses. i was just pointing that out.

You're the one making the claim, you're required to put forward your evidences.

if you want me to debunk islamic science.. well, a topic of what you want me to debunk has to be brought up first.

Oh seriosly? Yeah - their poetry, the others i'm not too sure about. If that is so - bring forward evidences. Again, the majority of the arabs were an illiterate people.

mohammad's tribe was the smartest tribe there was in arabia. so that's one. two, mohammad was a trader.. he went to damascus, jerusalem, and many other places. it's amazing what you can learn when you travel, especially in that time.
there isn't anything in the qu'ran that sceintifically fascinates me. most seem to simply come from Jewish or gnostic sources. but that's only my opinion. and i hope i'm not offending you when i say that or anything. that's not my intention. my intention is to prove my side of the case.

No, i want proof that Jesus son of Mary ordered people to worship him. Since you guys claim he's god all the time right?

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (John 8:58-59).

"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:30-33).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean” (Matthew 8:2).

“While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live” (Matthew 9:18).

“Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33).

“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me” (Matthew 15:25).

“Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him” (Matthew 20:20).

“And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9).

“And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him” (John 9:38).

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth” (Philippians 2:10).

Unlike the elect angels and the apostles who refused to accept worship (Acts 14:11-15; Rev. 19:10), not once did Jesus refuse it. The Bible teaches that it is idolatry and wickedness to worship any one or any thing other than the one True and Living God (Ex. 20:3-5; 34:14; Is. 42:8; Matt. 4:10). Therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ accepted worship is indisputable evidence that he is Almighty God.

there you go

Did Jesus call himself a god? And did he ask people to worship him? He never since he is a Messenger like the Messengers' before, the only difference is that he was born of a miraculous birth - however Adam was created without a father nor a mother, yet he isn't classed as God. Nor does God die.

yes, jesus did call himself God. John 10.. I and the Father are one. He also said "I am the beginning and the end."

Maybe you could truely show me what fantastic is then?

don't get me wrong.. i think the qu'ran is beautiful in arabic. but i think that people over exxaterate when they say that it is the most beautiful thing ever heard. sorry to say this, but i would prefer Ave Maria over the qu'ran. but that's just me, a non muslim. for muslims, of course it will not be like that.

Okay, sure. Maybe you've never noticed, but we have our book in the original language. Something which you don't even have right? Maybe that's why we depend on the original language more, since that's how God revealed it to His Messengers'.

the NT is in greek, aka the original language, so actually we do have it in its original language

That's pure ignorance. The heaven refers to the universe. And the carpet on earth is referring to the earth being spread out for us.


Again, look at what the original poster said:

so now you're going to show the so called "7 layers of the atmosphere." well, sorry to tell you, but there are FIVE layers in the atmosphere. look at wikipedia. google "atmosphere." since when has the ground been considered a layer of the atmosphere?

I gave you proof from the english language, i think you still never understood that.

i understood it.. but i just didn't find it extremely fascinating.

First of all, when Islaam settled in Egypt - the muslims never forced the copts to become christian [there is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an 2:256).] So guess what? They remained christian.

Maybe we could go at it this way, name me one learned scholar on Islaam who became christian? I can name you loads of christian scholars who became muslim, and still are.

one sholar i know right off the back is Father Zakariah. he has the Qu'ran and Hadiths memorized, and debates muslims very frequently. he's a convert to Chrsitianity

Theres loads of info on this thread already.

and?

Did i say the Qur'an was a science book? The Qur'an isn't revealed for that, rather it is the message of God to humanity. To tell them how to live with mankind and also their Sustainer, in kindness, peace and justice - each according to the right situation.

good.. so why do you keep proposing science in the qu'ran!!!!

Again, when did i say it was a science book? The facts mentioned within it fit in with logic and science, that shows that it is truely a book of God. Whereas christians can't even explain their main concept of 1+1+1= 1? Yet even a 3yr old knows that this concept doesn't make sense.

so i ask about islam, and all of a sudden you bring my religion into it. now answer this.. how does that all of a sudden make your case stronger? i just don't understand. if you want to talk about christianity.. then start up a topic

the trinity is obviously misunderstood by you, as we can see.

think of a 3 leaf clover.. it's one plant, but it has 3 leafs on it. or think of water.. it can be water in liquid, gas, or solid form. but it's still water nevertheless. we don't believe in 3 different Gods.. we believe that God manifested himself as Jesus, and then left the Holy Spirit to be with us

I think you're the one who sparked this argument off in the first place, that's why bro Habeshi and i responded to it. You need to open your eyes abit more.

i have opened my eyes plenty just because i don't believe islam is true doesn't mean that i'm for some reason close minded.

 

[thirdwatch512]

LOL Cyril and thirdwatch got owned hard

lol

I am sorry!.. I don't approve of your life style but it was wrong of me to bring it up--you can ask a mod to remove the posts!

oh, it's perfectly fine. but i do ask you to PM me so we can understand each other more

 

[- Qatada -]

but you said that Jesus was the son of Mary and moses. i was just pointing that out.

I never, since i know that Moses came to his people much longer than Jesus son of Mary did.

if you want me to debunk islamic science.. well, a topic of what you want me to debunk has to be brought up first.

I don't need to, if you really want to however - you can debunk the original posts in this thread.

mohammad's tribe was the smartest tribe there was in arabia. so that's one. two, mohammad was a trader.. he went to damascus, jerusalem, and many other places. it's amazing what you can learn when you travel, especially in that time.

Yeah it sure is, he went to Greater Syria for a short span of time and learnt all the history of the children of Israel? And he learnt the whole concept of christianity while he only spent maybe a few months max there?

And this was all done while going for a small business trip?

there isn't anything in the qu'ran that sceintifically fascinates me. most seem to simply come from Jewish or gnostic sources. but that's only my opinion. and i hope i'm not offending you when i say that or anything. that's not my intention. my intention is to prove my side of the case.

Kinda ironic since he never even met up with jews, especially in the Makkan era when alot of surahs regarding the earlier prophets were revealed.

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (John 8:58-59).

"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:30-33).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean” (Matthew 8:2).

“While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live” (Matthew 9:18).

“Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33).

“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me” (Matthew 15:25).

“Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him” (Matthew 20:20).

“And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9).

“And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him” (John 9:38).

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth” (Philippians 2:10).

Unlike the elect angels and the apostles who refused to accept worship (Acts 14:11-15; Rev. 19:10), not once did Jesus refuse it. The Bible teaches that it is idolatry and wickedness to worship any one or any thing other than the one True and Living God (Ex. 20:3-5; 34:14; Is. 42:8; Matt. 4:10). Therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ accepted worship is indisputable evidence that he is Almighty God.

there you go

None of them state that Jesus told them to worship him.

yes, jesus did call himself God. John 10.. I and the Father are one. He also said "I am the beginning and the end."

The same god which was given birth to and stayed in a womb for a certain amount of months? Is it the god which you say was 'killed' by his own creation?

We even have greater respect for Jesus son of Mary since we know that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God in the heavens, yet you guys claim that god dies!? And then gets placed in a grave?

don't get me wrong.. i think the qu'ran is beautiful in arabic. but i think that people over exxaterate when they say that it is the most beautiful thing ever heard. sorry to say this, but i would prefer Ave Maria over the qu'ran. but that's just me, a non muslim. for muslims, of course it will not be like that.

That's upto you.

the NT is in greek, aka the original language, so actually we do have it in its original language

No it isn't in the original language, Jesus son of Mary spoke Aramaic [the syrian tongue] he never spoke greek.

so now you're going to show the so called "7 layers of the atmosphere." well, sorry to tell you, but there are FIVE layers in the atmosphere. look at wikipedia. google "atmosphere." since when has the ground been considered a layer of the atmosphere?

I've given you the list in the earlier post:

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

​

The ground isn't the heaven, rather it includes the sky which we can see.

i understood it.. but i just didn't find it extremely fascinating.

It's part of eloquence, even in the english language. You asked the question, i gave you the answer.

one sholar i know right off the back is Father Zakariah. he has the Qu'ran and Hadiths memorized, and debates muslims very frequently. he's a convert to Chrsitianity

Can he explain the trinity?

and?

how about YOU show me some so called science in the qu'ran, and let's see what i can't debunk. go ahead.. paste articles, give me links, do anything. let's see what won't get debunked.

Theres loads of info on this thread already.

You can start

good.. so why do you keep proposing science in the qu'ran!!!!

Because the Qur'an agrees with science.

so i ask about islam, and all of a sudden you bring my religion into it. now answer this.. how does that all of a sudden make your case stronger? i just don't understand. if you want to talk about christianity.. then start up a topic

the trinity is obviously misunderstood by you, as we can see.

think of a 3 leaf clover.. it's one plant, but it has 3 leafs on it. or think of water.. it can be water in liquid, gas, or solid form. but it's still water nevertheless. we don't believe in 3 different Gods.. we believe that God manifested himself as Jesus, and then left the Holy Spirit to be with us

So how about a drop of water? Can it be gas, liquid and solid at one time?

i have opened my eyes plenty just because i don't believe islam is true doesn't mean that i'm for some reason close minded.

I think you're the one who sparked this argument off in the first place, that's why bro Habeshi and i responded to it. You need to open your eyes abit more.

 

[thirdwatch512]

I never, since i know that Moses came to his people much longer than Jesus son of Mary did.

i know, but you didn't write it like that. it was prolly just a mistake.

I don't need to, if you really want to however - you can debunk the original posts in this thread.

they all have been debunked.

Yeah it sure is, he went to Greater Syria for a short span of time and learnt all the history of the children of Israel? And he learnt the whole concept of christianity while he only spent maybe a few months max there?

And this was all done while going for a small business trip?

the qu'ran doesn't talk about "the children of israel" a whole lot.

Kinda ironic since he never even met up with jews, especially in the Makkan era when alot of surahs regarding the earlier prophets were revealed.

i never knew about mohammad until one day i met one muslim, we talked for 30 minutes, and i learned som much in just 30 mins.

None of them state that Jesus told them to worship him.

if you were a prophet, not God, just a prophet.. and someone started worshipping you.. you would correct them. you would tell them not to. Jesus never did that. and if you were a prophet, just a prophet, who wrote "don't worship people" but tohers worshipped you and you didn't oppose.. what message does that give? either 1. you are contradicting yourself, or 2. you're a higher being. now why would Jesus contradict himself!

The same god which was given birth to and stayed in a womb for a certain amount of months? Is it the god which you say was 'killed' by his own creation?

you obviously don't know much about the Trinity. God manifested Himself into a human form. as simple as that.

We even have greater respect for Jesus son of Mary since we know that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God in the heavens, yet you guys claim that god dies!? And then gets placed in a grave?

so do you think Jesus should be respected more then mohammad? because mohammad was poisined, whereas Jesus rose up straight to heaven(according to you.) God is perfect. He can do anything. while Jesus was crucified, He, being God, didn't really die. He went to the Father part of the Trinity per se.

No it isn't in the original language, Jesus son of Mary spoke Aramaic [the syrian tongue] he never spoke greek.

but his disciples did.

I've given you the list in the earlier post:

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

​

The ground isn't the heaven, rather it includes the sky which we can see.

hmm, from wikipedia, and other sources, I see the earth having 5 layers..

Can he explain the trinity?

can who?

You can start

how can i debunk something, when you haven't provided anything first?

Because the Qur'an agrees with science.

in your opinion. in my opinion, people take the verses extremely out of context.

So how about a drop of water? Can it be gas, liquid and solid at one time?

i was showing water as an example, silly!

 

[Hemoo]

this man named Zakarya botros is a liar.

i have a video in arabic that exposes his lies and falsifications..

he also said that his god is every where even in the human stool. (makes me laugh at his insane belief)

 

[- Qatada -]

i know, but you didn't write it like that. it was prolly just a mistake.

Alright, its ok.

they all have been debunked.

No they havn't.

the qu'ran doesn't talk about "the children of israel" a whole lot.

The children of Israel are mentioned the most in the Qur'an. And of the narratives mentioned in the ahadith - the children of Israel are mentioned the most there also.

i never knew about mohammad until one day i met one muslim, we talked for 30 minutes, and i learned som much in just 30 mins.

Kool, did you learn the whole history of a nation also? A nation which went through nearly any aspect of life which covered over around 5000 years or more?

if you were a prophet, not God, just a prophet.. and someone started worshipping you.. you would correct them. you would tell them not to. Jesus never did that. and if you were a prophet, just a prophet, who wrote "don't worship people" but tohers worshipped you and you didn't oppose.. what message does that give? either 1. you are contradicting yourself, or 2. you're a higher being. now why would Jesus contradict himself!

Prophet Joseph's brothers and parents bowed to him - that didn't make him God.

you obviously don't know much about the Trinity. God manifested Himself into a human form. as simple as that.

So God died?

so do you think Jesus should be respected more then mohammad? because mohammad was poisined, whereas Jesus rose up straight to heaven(according to you.) God is perfect. He can do anything. while Jesus was crucified, He, being God, didn't really die. He went to the Father part of the Trinity per se.

God only does what befits His Majesty, He doesn't need to be harmed by His own creation. The miracles performed by Jesus are miracles, and the miracles which Moses performed were miracles. Yet he wasn't god.

but his disciples did.

Since Jesus son of Mary spoke so much metaphors, how were they sure they translated the sayings in the correct way?

hmm, from wikipedia, and other sources, I see the earth having 5 layers..

We're not talking about the earth, we're talking about the skies and universe.

I've found some more info on the Ionosphere & Magnetosphere here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosphere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere

can who?

That man who became christian?

how can i debunk something, when you haven't provided anything first?

I've checked over the thread again, and you havn't debunked it at all. So maybe you could debunk this thread as i stated earlier.

in your opinion. in my opinion, people take the verses extremely out of context.

And you know that because you're a scholar of Qur'an right?

i was showing water as an example, silly!

It wasn't a good explanation though right? Since ALL the prophets of God called to the worship of the Creator Alone, and they called people to shun all false deities.


And We sent to every nation a Messenger (saying): ‘Worship God alone and shun false deities.’ (Quran 16:36)


Jesus son of Mary had the same call - worship my Lord and your Lord, yet people took him and others as gods along with the true One and Only God, the One who gives us life, the One who sustains us, the One who causes us to die, and the One who will bring us back to life again, to judge us on what we differed.



If you want to carry on this discussion - then you can, however i think its just a waste of time.



Regards.

 

[Trumble]

No it isn't in the original language, Jesus son of Mary spoke Aramaic [the syrian tongue] he never spoke greek.

Actually, he most likely did, although his primary language was probably Aramaic (a few scholars think it may even have been Hebrew). There is both general historical evidence - Greek was used as a commercial language in Galilee and even as an everyday language in Judea - and Biblical evidence; it's highly unlikely that either Jesus spoke Latin or Pontius Pilate and the Roman centurion (Matthew 8) would have spoken Aramaic. They would have talked in Greek. Agreed his teachings would not have been in that language, though. Nevertheless the original language of the NT is Greek, not Aramaic. The words of Jesus form only a small part of it, albeit the most important part.

hmm, from wikipedia, and other sources, I see the earth having 5 layers..

I think you may be wasting your time. I have already pointed out that;

- the concept of seven heavens and seven earths was well established (in assorted contexts) in pagan religion, Jewish mysticism, Buddhism and even Christianity long before the time of Mohammed.

- the number of 'layers' is purely arbitrary. Some articles refer to seven (obviously including the one selected for this purpose) . Other articles refer to five, six or even eleven (including the 'border' reasons). You could define as many as you like. The same 'miracle' would be claimed whichever of those numbers the Qur'an actually referred to.

and

- Muslim scholars (as opposed to popularists) have pointed out that the verse quoted has nothing to do with layers of the earth's atmosphere.

If that doesn't convince, nothing will. There are far more intriguing Qur'anic 'miracles' to talk about.

 

[- Qatada -]

Actually, he most likely did, although his primary language was probably Aramaic (a few scholars think it may even have been Hebrew). There is both general historical evidence - Greek was used as a commercial language in Galilee and even as an everyday language in Judea - and Biblical evidence; it's highly unlikely that either Jesus spoke Latin or Pontius Pilate and the Roman centurion (Matthew 8) would have spoken Aramaic. They would have talked in Greek. Agreed his teachings would not have been in that language, though. Nevertheless the original language of the NT is Greek, not Aramaic. The words of Jesus form only a small part of it, albeit the most important part.

So you agree that Jesus son of Mary probably never spoke Greek? I find it quite confusing why it wouldn't be recorded in the Aramaic or Hebrew tongue then, because as stated - didn't Jesus speak in alot of metaphors etc?

- Muslim scholars (as opposed to popularists) have pointed out that the verse quoted has nothing to do with layers of the earth's atmosphere.

If that doesn't convince, nothing will. There are far more intriguing Qur'anic 'miracles' to talk about... but people will believe what they want to believe.

If that's the case, then i don't need to disagree with the scholars. There much more knowledgable than me.

 

[Trumble]

So you agree that Jesus son of Mary probably never spoke Greek? I find it quite confusing why it wouldn't be recorded in the Aramaic or Hebrew tongue then, because as stated - didn't Jesus speak in alot of metaphors etc?

No. I'm not quite sure where you get that from based on what I said; there doesn't seem much room for mis-interpretation in "they would have talked in Greek"! It is also likely that Jesus used the language in other contexts as he is hardly likely to have learned it for those particular events. However, I do agree that his preaching was most likely in Aramaic; it would seem the obvious choice in view of the intended audience. He did use metaphors, none of which would have presented any translation difficulties to someone familiar with both languages. There really isn't much room for confusion in "I am the good shepherd", "I am the light of the world" or even "I am the vine, you are the branches".

Actually, a few words were recorded in Aramaic in Mark (5:41, 14:36 and most famously 15:34). As to the rest, it was written down in Greek because that was the almost universal literary language of the time. What was the point in recording it in Aramaic if none of the anticipated audience could understand it - it hardly 'spreads the message', does it?

 

[جوري]

^^^Jesus (PBUH) -- had no intent to "spread the message"
'I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.' (Matthew 15:24)[1]

[1]. Hence every one of the famous twelve disciples of Jesus was an Israelite Jew. The one biblical passage where Jesus is supposed to have told his disciples to 'Go and preach unto all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.' (Matthew 28:19), commonly quoted to prove the Gentile mission as well as the Trinity, is not found in any pre-sixteenth century manuscript and is thus considered 'a pious fraud'.

The whole speaking in Greek, is nothing but a subjective opinion to perpetuate a popular fraud -- by the end of another century.. Christianity I have no doubt will mutate yet again to fit the tides...

peace!

 

[rav]

Kinda ironic since he never even met up with jews, especially in the Makkan era when alot of surahs regarding the earlier prophets were revealed.

Shalom Fi,

I would kindly like for you to clear up a possible misunderstanding I may have drawn from your posts. Are you suggesting that Mohammad never met up with any Jews at all? Nor was in any position to speak to Jews, or learn about Judaism.