The Stoning of Soraya M

[جوري]

You know, I was thinking exactly the very same thing, about you, as I was walking back from the shop this evening (getting some air). I get in... and find this.

You must search for your own source of inspiration and not merely espouse the beliefs of others as a good idea (it does reflect in most of your writing) and cements the fact that you are but an empty vessel ready to imbue and regurgitate not of its own self reflection but whatever crap is dumped unto it!

The rest is just empty nonsense of course-- perhaps a night class of some basic vocational training to foster your self-esteem is in order!

all the best

 

[Ezekiel_B]

You must search for your own source of inspiration and not merely espouse the beliefs of others as a good idea (it does reflect in most of your writing) and cements the fact that you are but an empty vessel ready to imbue and regurgitate not of its own self reflection but whatever crap is dumped unto it!

If you think I am stupid enough to retaliate, then you are sorely mistaken. You know exactly the response which that line solicits - and I'm not going to say it. You go work it out...

 

[Maryan0]

Perhaps I ought to remind you of the Islamic Islamic slave trade across the Sahara, the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean?

In his book "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters...", historian Robert Davis says:

"While the European involvement in the Transatlantic slave trade to the Americas lasted for just over three centuries, the Arab involvement in the slave trade has lasted fourteen centuries, and in some parts of the Muslim world is still continuing to this day."

I find it strange how some european schlors would like to equate arab slavery and the slavery practiced in Africa to the transatlantic slavestrade. Slavery has played an integral part in world history but the slavery brought about by the Europeans in Africa and north and south America was far worse and the effects of it can still be felt today. No other form of slavery had the effect of denigerating African history to the point that African history is thought to have started with slavery and colonization and that africans have played no significant part in world history but then again all history is taught from a eurocentric standpoint. No other form of slavery mainly encompassed one race and on such a large scale where today when one thinks of slave they think black. No other form of slavery spawned ridiculous studies such as craniometry where black people were compared to apes or the syphilis studies, not to mention that lynching and segregtion occured in the very recent past and the latter can still be seen in areas in the south. To compare the transatlantic slavetrade to any other slavetrade practiced throughout history is ignorant they were nothing alike in repercussions and in scope. I find it really funny when Europeans would like to detract from the crimes they committed against Africa by pointing fingers at others. The arab slavetrade was wrong and so was any other slavery practiced before but in no way can it be compared to the Transatlantic slavetrade.

 

[titus]

The arab slavetrade was wrong and so was any other slavery practiced before but in no way can it be compared to the Transatlantic slavetrade.

Please, let's stop trying to decide which was worse. Nobody should try and kid themselves into believing the Arabs treated their slaves humanely or with dignity.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

To compare the transatlantic slavetrade to any other slavetrade practiced throughout history is ignorant

Which is more ignorant - to include Eastern activity in an overview of slave history - or the failure to mention it altogether? No comparrison have I drawn to say one was worse than the other. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Slavery has played an integral part in world history

Yes, and so has that thing called human rights - and as each day passes, it continues to make history. That is something which was first conceived of and developed right here, in the west since then and is now being transmitted to those who are in need of it, both in Africa and the middle east as well as eastern Europe. When hundreds of refugees from the inhumane regimes of Africa and the middle east arrive in our country every year and are given free housing and medical care, we don't hear them complaining about 'transatlantic slavery', which happened many hundreds of years hence. Regimes which the west cannot be held accountable for, yet it still pulls out all stops to assist the victims. It is only when they have been in the country for a while and become absorbed into the exclusive 'middle eastern societies' and 'black zionist' thought patterns resident in Europe, that they then might start to turn against us on our own soil and point the finger, forgetting how it is that they got free in the first place to enjoy the current freedoms of the west.

No other form of slavery mainly encompassed one race and on such a large scale where today when one thinks of slave they think black.

That's right - and when some people think of slave masters, they think white. There is still a surprising number of people who neglect to mention that black slaves were rounded up and captured by fellow blacks and handed over to the white slave traders, who carried them overseas.

So, as you can see, the term 'Transatlantic Slavery' is a broad term which implies that not just one race was involved, but that it was actually an international effort, involving English, American, African and Arab players. To say that white Europeans were the only people responsible for slave trading is erroneous as it is ignorant.

Slavery is a human injustice, not merely a white European one. To say that guilt must somehow trickle down, from forefather to present day is absurd. Each person is responsible for their own actions. What counts is what those decendants choose to do about it, in their own age. Martin Luther King himself is considered as much a hero in our secular society, among nearly as many white people as blacks. Finally, we are managing to achieve Martin Luther's dream, which so many of us hold dear. It may take another hundred years to fully achieve, but many of us still hang onto that dream, by championing education and understanding.

If we were to take a certain that logic to it's conclusion (one that has been levelled at me, just recently), we could say I am also responsible for the electricity which powers the computer, on which τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ types her diatribe. But I'm not going to because, of course, the whole concept of hereditary guilt and glory is as absurd as it is destitute of reason.

And when you and τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ started to address me, you didn't even consider the question of whether I am black or white. When she starts to point the finger, how does she know I am not of asian descent? In which case, from whom did I inherit my guilt?

I find it really funny when Europeans would like to detract from the crimes they committed against Africa by pointing fingers at others.

As you should be able to see clearly, there has been NO detraction from white involvement in slavery in anything I have said so far. Furthermore, such an accusation can so easily be turned around to face you. I'm glad you find it funny, because I do not regard slavery as a joking matter. The terrible things human beings have done and continue to do to each other, in the name of religion and for money constitute serious crimes against humanity, in my view. I have a very quick sense of humour but seeing you, hoplessly in error, does not make me laugh. Quite the contrary. It actually worries me to know such ignorance still abounds in a day and age where impartial information is now so easily attainable.

all history is taught from a eurocentric standpoint

If that is the case, then how was I able to make this thread?

Here in England, the English & American slave trade is detailed in every school history text book and has been steadily growing in detail, since I was educated.

With a resurgence of nationalist politics and racist organisations in our society, we find it necessary to educate our children about the white involvement in slavery, in an effort to discourage the kind of thinking which brings them about. Besides that, it's the truth, so why wouldn't we document it?

African history is thought to have started with slavery and colonization and that africans have played no significant part in world history but then again all history is taught from a eurocentric standpoint

Likewise, to the subject of British-Afro and Asian involvement in British and American history. Again, if what you're saying is true, then how is it I am able to buy books and watch copious documentaries on my television, which detail exactly how people of African descent have contributed to our country's history? Before such reforms, we were supposed to believe that black people played no part in WWII but the impartially documented history taught here no longer denies it. Arguably, this is the whole point of secular society. For too long have we been under the power of the church, whom we recognise as having racist tendencies which, by virtue of that trait, has attempted to deny people access to the truth.

The arab slavetrade was wrong and so was any other slavery practiced before but in no way can it be compared to the Transatlantic slavetrade.

Well, if we were to make a comparrison at all; one that has any meaningful use today, then we could say that while slavery still continues in many parts of the world - such as...

• The sudan
• Niger
• The United Arab Emirates
• India, Nepal & Pakistan
• Indonesia

...there is none to be found here in free, western, secular society anymore.

So which do you consider to be the most effective and intelligent way of thinking? To carry on pointing the finger at the west (and at me, personally) for a history long gone or start to address the problems which exist today?

I'm sure if I had your sense of humour, I might find this funny... only I don't. I find it rather sad.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

If that is the case, then how was I able to make this thread?

I meant: post. I didn't start this thread.

 

[Ramadhan]

Indonesia

I live in Indonesia all my life (with the exception of a total of around 6 years I spent aboard).

I am not aware that slavery exists here.
The only slavery that existed in indonesia was when the Dutch colonised Indonesia for 350 years and insitituted forced plantation program in the 18th and 19th century to pay for their war losses in europe. The japanese also implemented slavery through romusha and enforced prostituion program in the 5 years that they colonised Indonesia in 1940-1945.

Please provide evidence, or you will lose all your credibility and hence your arguments in this thread.
out of curiosity, did you just google if slavery still exists in muslim countries and the copy and pasted onto this discussion without verifying if it is true and correct?

 

[Ezekiel_B]

I live in Indonesia all my life (with the exception of a total of around 6 years I spent aboard).

I am not aware that slavery exists here.
The only slavery that existed in indonesia was when the Dutch colonised Indonesia for 350 years and insitituted forced plantation program in the 18th and 19th century to pay for their war losses in europe. The japanese also implemented slavery through romusha and enforced prostituion program in the 5 years that they colonised Indonesia in 1940-1945.


Please provide evidence, or you will lose all your credibility and hence your arguments in this thread.
out of curiosity, did you just google if slavery still exists in muslim countries and the copy and pasted onto this discussion without verifying if it is true and correct?

No, I didn't just google it. What sort of evidence are you asking me for? Similarly, what evidence can you provide for what you are saying? And if I had, then how does the use of a search engine falsify the information I might find? No, you see there are plenty of documents available on the internet, as well as books, newspapers and television documentaries; reports direct from foreign aid workers and even from journalists within these countries. And if you think those are biased, then let me remind you, that in the same evening as I can watch a documentary about slave trading in other parts of the world, if I sit tight, I'll be able to tune into another one, discussing the social problems of this country. If I have used Google at all, then it is for quick reference to issues I was already made aware of, from a variety of different sources.

We are also aware that some documentaries are filmed from a certain 'angle', which can colour the viewer's point of view but also take into account that it is hard to suppress certain truths when there is such a sheer weight of evidence available and people willing to speak of it. Each person's task is to critically evalute that evidence, cross reference it against other sources and all any of us can realistically do is come to a conclusion, based on the best evidence available. Sometimes, findings are inconclusive. There are many subjects like that, still to this day.

So when you put on me the burden of proof, logically, all I can do in return is provide you with what I have found, and then turn it around and put the burden of unproving it back onto you.

So by your logic, there is no gaurantee either one of us has the full story, but given the wealth of information we are allowed access to, it would seem we can have a good guess as to who is more likely to be right.

Now this one, for instance, is taken from an independant news site and cites information gained from internal Indonesian rights groups:

Official data from the Indonesian consulate in Kota Kinabalu, the capital of the Sabah state in Malaysia, says more than 330,000 Indonesians work in at least 103 palm oil plantations in Malaysia. Almost half of them are illegal workers but it's not clear how many of them are children.

You see, before you try and pull this one on me, you ought to realise we have a constant influx of information which sometimes we have to sift through, to get to the truth of the matter - but you also need to be aware that we are able to also tune into our own people, freely critisizing our own government for, among many other things - their foreign policy.

Let me ask you... have you ever heard of Question Time?

European politicians might be accountable for a lot of things but in England, they can't stop us from discussing and critisizing them in public... and that's exactly what we do. This is in sharp contrast to some countries in this world, where information is severely limited, certain literature banned and speaking out against one's government can carry the penalty of imprisonment... or perhaps even worse.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

Please provide evidence, or you will lose all your credibility and hence your arguments in this thread. out of curiosity, did you just google if slavery still exists in muslim countries and the copy and pasted onto this discussion without verifying if it is true and correct?

No, I would only lose my credibility, if I were shown evidence to the contrary, then stubbornly tried to hang onto my views.

It's interesting to note, you still think of this debate in terms of "winning" and "losing", while there are innocent people still suffering imeasurably in this world, at the hands of all different nationalities. The only 'loser' in this game, is the one who is shown evidence and is so stubbornly committed to what he wants to believe, rather than what he's being shown, that he misses out on the truth. The biggest losers, of course, are those who have been robbed of their freedom.

If I were to be proven wrong, then I would have won something of great value.

 

[Ramadhan]

I have just finished reading your paragraphs after paragraphs of words which, not surprisingly (those who are empty on proofs and evidence are normally big on words), does not contain even a single word of evidence of slavery in Indonesia.
The best you can come up is this:

Official data from the Indonesian consulate in Kota Kinabalu, the capital of the Sabah state in Malaysia, says more than 330,000 Indonesians work in at least 103 palm oil plantations in Malaysia. Almost half of them are illegal workers but it's not clear how many of them are children.

FIRST: you need to go back to grade school and study geography, you will learn that Malaysia is a country, separate from Indonesia, which is also a country.
SECOND: if you think the fact that there are illegal immigrants working in palm oil plantations in Malaysia is evidence of slavery, then you must also think that EVERY SINGLE EUROPEAN countries are still operating slavery, and the BIGGEST slavery nation of all by far would be UNITED STATES OF AMERICA where millions of illegal immigrants (including children), mostly mexicans, work in absolutly abominable conditions, with super low remunerations.

No, I would only lose my credibility, if I were shown evidence to the contrary, then stubbornly tried to hang onto my views.

Are you still stubbornly holding to your view that there is slavery in Indonesia?


Just a side note, your style of "logic" and writing and extremely weak on evidence actually remind me of a former poster. Oh, we had fun with him.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

I bet you did.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

So what about my other points...? Anything to say about those, Naidamar? Or are you hinging everything upon the point about Indonesia? Are you saying that slavery doesn't still exist or what?

 

[Ezekiel_B]

f you think the fact that there are illegal immigrants working in palm oil plantations in Malaysia is evidence of slavery, then you must also think that EVERY SINGLE EUROPEAN countries are still operating slavery, and the BIGGEST slavery nation of all by far would be UNITED STATES OF AMERICA where millions of illegal immigrants (including children), mostly mexicans, work in absolutly abominable conditions, with super low remunerations.

You know, I'm happy to concede that 'slavery' is a term, oft subject to interpretation. I'm also more than willing to admit that not only have things like this been uncovered in America, we in Britain read of something rather similar. My point is, that when found, it is considered immoral and there are plenty of people willing to stand up for the rights of these people, (some white, some black, some asian) not to be treated like sack horses and exploited for their cheap labour. Of course, it's a moot point, on precisely who is to blame - but the upshot of it is - it isn't tolerated.

Compare this with ages past, where it was considered perfectly legal to own slaves. You can't own another person! We now think that is disgusting! I hope you can actually see my point here - that I'm not trying to excuse ANYONE from committing slavery - be they American, Indian, Black, White or otherwise. What I'm trying to get across to you is the folly in blaming people for their forefather's deeds. Oh yes, we held Germany to reparations, from the First World War - and good did it do us? Another war! Pointing fingers usually ends up with people going around and around in circles, with no useful result. Considering you and I have already previously agreed, it's better if we don't, I'm only asking you to consider my stance on irrational blame.

 

[Ramadhan]

Interesting, although I shouldn't be surprised.
More verbal diatribes, and yet no retracting of the statement that there is slavery operating in Indonesia.

Borrowing ezekiel_B's own yardstick:

No, I would only lose my credibility, if I were shown evidence to the contrary, then stubbornly tried to hang onto my views.

I leave it to the forum to decide if ezekiel_b has any credibility left in him.

 

[جوري]

I leave it to the forum to decide if ezekiel_b has any credibility left in him.

It is good and kind of you to reply, you must have ample patience for buffoonery?.. I lost interest at the grammar level, as for content, well I am sure it is good for a guffaw!

 

[CosmicPathos]

No, I didn't just google it. What sort of evidence are you asking me for? Similarly, what evidence can you provide for what you are saying? And if I had, then how does the use of a search engine falsify the information I might find? No, you see there are plenty of documents available on the internet, as well as books, newspapers and television documentaries; reports direct from foreign aid workers and even from journalists within these countries. And if you think those are biased, then let me remind you, that in the same evening as I can watch a documentary about slave trading in other parts of the world, if I sit tight, I'll be able to tune into another one, discussing the social problems of this country. If I have used Google at all, then it is for quick reference to issues I was already made aware of, from a variety of different sources.

We are also aware that some documentaries are filmed from a certain 'angle', which can colour the viewer's point of view but also take into account that it is hard to suppress certain truths when there is such a sheer weight of evidence available and people willing to speak of it. Each person's task is to critically evalute that evidence, cross reference it against other sources and all any of us can realistically do is come to a conclusion, based on the best evidence available. Sometimes, findings are inconclusive. There are many subjects like that, still to this day.

So when you put on me the burden of proof, logically, all I can do in return is provide you with what I have found, and then turn it around and put the burden of unproving it back onto you.

So by your logic, there is no gaurantee either one of us has the full story, but given the wealth of information we are allowed access to, it would seem we can have a good guess as to who is more likely to be right.

Now this one, for instance, is taken from an independant news site and cites information gained from internal Indonesian rights groups:

You see, before you try and pull this one on me, you ought to realise we have a constant influx of information which sometimes we have to sift through, to get to the truth of the matter - but you also need to be aware that we are able to also tune into our own people, freely critisizing our own government for, among many other things - their foreign policy.

Let me ask you... have you ever heard of Question Time?

European politicians might be accountable for a lot of things but in England, they can't stop us from discussing and critisizing them in public... and that's exactly what we do. This is in sharp contrast to some countries in this world, where information is severely limited, certain literature banned and speaking out against one's government can carry the penalty of imprisonment... or perhaps even worse.

why are verbal feces like above are being allowed on these forums ...

 

[جوري]

why are verbal feces like above are being allowed on these forums ...

we needed to remodel the southwestern corner

 

[Maryan0]

Which is more ignorant - to include Eastern activity in an overview of slave history - or the failure to mention it altogether? No comparrison have I drawn to say one was worse than the other. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Where in my post did I detract from eastern activity? The issue I had with your post was the comparison made between the Arab slave trade and the transatlantic slave trade. The only people who put it on the same level are European Christians who would like to detract for the heinous crimes they committed against Africa by pointing fingers at others. Like I stated before the Arab slave trade was wrong and so was any other practiced throughout history because the ownership of a another human being can never be humane but no slavery throughout history is in any way shape or form the same as the transatlantic slave trade and the reasons for that are mentioned in my first post.

Yes, and so has that thing called human rights - and as each day passes, it continues to make history. That is something which was first conceived of and developed right here, in the west since then and is now being transmitted to those who are in need of it, both in Africa and the middle east as well as eastern Europe.

And?

When hundreds of refugees from the inhumane regimes of Africa and the middle east arrive in our country every year and are given free housing and medical care, we don't hear them complaining about 'transatlantic slavery', which happened many hundreds of years hence. Regimes which the west cannot be held accountable for, yet it still pulls out all stops to assist the victims. It is only when they have been in the country for a while and become absorbed into the exclusive 'middle eastern societies' and 'black zionist' thought patterns resident in Europe, that they then might start to turn against us on our own soil and point the finger, forgetting how it is that they got free in the first place to enjoy the current freedoms of the west.

What are you on about? in your viewpoint we Africans should stop pointing the finger at the west for real crimes that occurred for living there currently? Does living there take away from the history of the transatlantic slave trade? Should Africans stop talking about it to make you feel better? And since the products of the transatlantic slave trade are African Americans I would hope your post about giving the Africans rights isn’t in reference to them because I really do not see what Africans who seek asylum in the west has to do with what we are arguing.

That's right - and when some people think of slave masters, they think white. There is still a surprising number of people who neglect to mention that black slaves were rounded up and captured by fellow blacks and handed over to the white slave traders, who carried them overseas.

Those poor white people they should hold protests and sing “We shall overcome”. What a terrible injustice.
This along with your first point just goes to show what an ignorant person you are. So because a few Africans sold out their people this somehow equates to the Europeans who went over there in the first place, took these people on their ships where they were subjected to horrible conditions where many died others subjected to torture. The separation of families and the rape that went on for almost 500 years. This in your eyes somehow equates to a few Africans (who probably did not understand the european version of slavery since the african kind was more like indentured servitude) selling other africans. Not to mention many of those Africans were coerced and those who refused to participate were enslaved themselves.

So, as you can see, the term 'Transatlantic Slavery' is a broad term which implies that not just one race was involved, but that it was actually an international effort, involving English, American, African and Arab players. To say that white Europeans were the only people responsible for slave trading is erroneous as it is ignorant.

What is ignorant is trying to put on the same level people sellings slaves to those who practiced slavery and built there society on it for half a millenia. You compared the arab slave trade to the European slavetrade that is erroneous as well as ignorant.

Slavery is a human injustice, not merely a white European one. To say that guilt must somehow trickle down, from forefather to present day is absurd. Each person is responsible for their own actions. What counts is what those decendants choose to do about it, in their own age. Martin Luther King himself is considered as much a hero in our secular society, among nearly as many white people as blacks. Finally, we are managing to achieve Martin Luther's dream, which so many of us hold dear. It may take another hundred years to fully achieve, but many of us still hang onto that dream, by championing education and understanding.

Each person is responsible for their own actions yet your whole post is in defense of your forefathers. My post wasnt in reference to you personally but to those like the European schlor you mentioned who point the finger at others to absolve themselves of the evil actions they commited. The arabs were doing it too and the africans sold them to us. The Transatlantic slavery was a white European injustice since those who owned and practiced it were Europeans.

As you should be able to see clearly, there has been NO detraction from white involvement in slavery in anything I have said so far. Furthermore, such an accusation can so easily be turned around to face you. I'm glad you find it funny, because I do not regard slavery as a joking matter. The terrible things human beings have done and continue to do to each other, in the name of religion and for money constitute serious crimes against humanity, in my view. I have a very quick sense of humour but seeing you, hoplessly in error, does not make me laugh. Quite the contrary. It actually worries me to know such ignorance still abounds in a day and age where impartial information is now so easily attainable.

Your whole post is a detraction from random ramblings about human rights in the west to pointing the finger at everyone else to take away the blame from those who actually engaged in it for hundreds of years and benefited from it.

If that is the case, then how was I able to make this thread?

The making of this thread about the stoning of Soraya m proves at history is not taught from a Eurocentric perspective? Are you serious?.

Here in England, the English & American slave trade is detailed in every school history text book and has been steadily growing in detail, since I was educated.

Precisely. You just proved my point. The slave trade and the history of colonization are taught. African history did not begin with the slave trade neither is Africa defined by it.

Likewise, to the subject of British-Afro and Asian involvement in British and American history. Again, if what you're saying is true, then how is it I am able to buy books and watch copious documentaries on my television, which detail exactly how people of African descent have contributed to our country's history? Before such reforms, we were supposed to believe that black people played no part in WWII but the impartially documented history taught here no longer denies it. Arguably, this is the whole point of secular society. For too long have we been under the power of the church, whom we recognise as having racist tendencies which, by virtue of that trait, has attempted to deny people access to the truth.

Apart the from the shortest month in the year designated black history month (here in north America, I don’t know if England has even that) what other African or black history is taught in schools on a regular basis? What you choose to do in your private time and all the documentaries you buy does not prove that African history or Native American history or the history of the world outside of Europe for that matter is common knowledge in the west.

Well, if we were to make a comparrison at all; one that has any meaningful use today, then we could say that while slavery still continues in many parts of the world - such as...

• The sudan
• Niger
• The United Arab Emirates
• India, Nepal & Pakistan
• Indonesia

...there is none to be found here in free, western, secular society anymore.

So which do you consider to be the most effective and intelligent way of thinking? To carry on pointing the finger at the west (and at me, personally) for a history long gone or start to address the problems which exist today?

You go from there were many players involved to let’s make a comparison with statistics. It seems to me like you are personally invested in deflecting the blame of the white slavemasters. Slavery like I mentioned in my first post was in existence probably since the beginning of time and that it still goes on today in many of it’s variations is not surprising but the point I was trying to make was that the arab slavetrade like any other in pre-existing history or presently cannot be compared to the transatlantic slavery because they were not alike in repercussions and scope. The post I replied to originally was referring to the past. If you want to focus on issues that exists today don’t post historically inaccurate information about the past. No slavery to have ever occurred in the past had the same destructive effect as the transatlantic slavetrade which destroyed peoples, languages, and religion. It continues to define Africa today. Not to mention the people of African descent who were the products of this slavery and their continued treatment in north and south America. The transatlantic slavetrade is in many cases compared to the holocaust and rightfully so since millions perished in it and since it redefined Africa and Africans to the world.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

Boy, I could open a chip shop, with what I find on your shoulder. You don't even WANT to hear anything positive. You're no better than any other racist I've met. Consumed with hate. And you think YOU'RE going to heaven! Wow! That's going to be a jolly place, with you lot stuck in there, isn't it?

 

[جوري]

Boy, I could open a chip shop, with what I find on your shoulder. You don't even WANT to hear anything positive. You're no better than any other racist I've met. Consumed with hate. And you think YOU'RE going to heaven! Wow! That's going to be a jolly place, with you lot stuck in there, isn't it?

If you are having problems with every member here and it is clear that you do, then perhaps the problem isn't with them but your own person?
something to ponder while brushing your teeth!