The Trinity and Islam: What does Mohommed Say?

[Traditio]

I notice that Muslims seem to have a prejudice about what Christians believe about the Trinity and about Jesus. Note, I don't mean "prejudice" in any negative sense. I merely mean this in the sense that you seem already to have a judgment about our beliefs. Here is my question:

What does the Quran or the hadiths or whatever the relevent Islamic religious texts say about Christianity and their belief in the Trinity and in Jesus?

For example, in the Quran and in the hadiths, does Mohommed say "Christians believe in x, y and z"?

 

[h-n]

I merely mean this in the sense that you seem already to have a judgment about our beliefs.

I think that you need to have a reality check, do you think that your going to teach us something that we don't already know?? Your statement sounds as if we don't know about Christianity. Its amazing, Muslims have been around for so long and Traditio thinks he is going to teach us about Christianity as we have not heard about it before.

Nevertheless here are the verses from the Quran;-

4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

4:158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

4:172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him;

3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

5:117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things

5:118 If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them (lo! they are Thy slaves). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, the Wise.

5:119 Allah saith: This is a day in which their truthfulness profiteth the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph.

Also I have heard that some Christians say that what we have in the Quran of our understanding of Christianity is wrong, please don't bother going down this route on an Islamic forum. We know well enough and anyone who treats Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as a saviour is wrong. To say that God All-Mighty is wrong about their beliefs is uttering a huge lie, so avoid it or face it on the Day of Judgement.

 

[Scimitar]

For example, in the Quran and in the hadiths, does Mohommed say "Christians believe in x, y and z"?

the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not the author of the Quran, he is the messenger of it - the Quran is revealed to him by The God (in Arabic - Allah) through the medium of the archangel Gabriel, pbuh.

The Quran mentions Christians in many places, would you like to see what is written about Christians? you may be surprised.

this is what we have in common:

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).


The following are warnings to those who worship anything but God - meaning if you worship or pray to the holy ghost or to Jesus (pbuh) :

"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
"The Jews call 'Uzair (Ezra) a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

pay close attention to the accuracy and the subtlety of divine speech - "...(in this - they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say..." enter Mithras, ISIS and Osiris, and all those pagan pantheon gods of the romans, greeks and egyptians, and what you find is that constantine was reviving a cult by hijacking your faith... and the history of this world attests to it.

Basically in answer to your question, trinity is a pagan concept which Constantine, the infamous pragmatist and leader of the Sol Invictus cult (sun worship) adopted into Christianity... the rest is plain sailing as they say.

If you have any questions, either myself or others will take you up on those God willing.

I pray to The God, that he enlightens you to the truth and guides you to it also, Amen.

Scimi

 

[greenhill]

This matter has been covered in previous threads.

For us Muslims, it is not a prejudice. It is a firm belief that Jesus is a prophet of Allah, just as Noah, Abraham, Moses and others as well as Muhammad (peace be upon them all).


eace:

 

[Traditio]

I think that you need to have a reality check, do you think that your going to teach us something that we don't already know?? Your statement sounds as if we don't know about Christianity. Its amazing, Muslims have been around for so long and Traditio thinks he is going to teach us about Christianity as we have not heard about it before.

Ms. h-n: with all due respect, Islam has been around for roughly 1400 years, no? I'll admit that I'm no expert on what you believe. I am not a Muslim. I was not raised in an Islamic family or in a predominately Islamic culture, and I haven't taken the time to become learned about it. Ditto for Buddhism, Confuscianism, Hinduism, etc. There are a ton of Protestant sects (errant branches of Christianity that started popping up around the 1500s), about which I don't claim to be an expert, nor do I claim to be an expert on Eastern Orthodoxy. I am not a member of that sect.

Why should I assume that Muslims are experts on Christianity?

Nevertheless here are the verses from the Quran;-

I thank you! I'll omit the verses from the Quran about which I have no questions, but I will have read the things that you put up, for which, again, you have my gratitude for going to the trouble of searching for them and posting them.

4:171

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

What does Mohommed mean by this, when he says "say not three"? What is he saying that Christians believe? Are there hadiths or commentary that explain this at greater length?

5:116

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

Is Mohommed claiming that Christians believe that Mary and Jesus are two gods, in addition to your "Allah," who is a third god?

Also I have heard that some Christians say that what we have in the Quran of our understanding of Christianity is wrong, please don't bother going down this route on an Islamic forum. We know well enough and anyone who treats Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as a saviour is wrong. To say that God All-Mighty is wrong about their beliefs is uttering a huge lie, so avoid it or face it on the Day of Judgement.

Actually, these are the questions that I have:

1. When Mohommed says the above, does he put these supposedly errant doctrines into the mouth of the Christians?

2. If he is doing that, do you think that he is expressing himself as a prophet of God, and therefore inerrantly/infallibly?

3. If Christians don't believe that (and didn't believe that at the time of Mohommed), and, therefore, Mohommed is putting doctrines into the mouths of the Christians which they didn't hold, wouldn't that prove that Mohommed was not God's prophet?

 

[Scimitar]

are you suggesting that the Christians living at the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh were monotheists? because history suggests otherwise.

One word: constantine

Scimi

 

[Traditio]

are you suggesting that the Christians living at the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh were monotheists? because history suggests otherwise.

One word: constantine

Scimi

Mohommed lived from 570-632 A.D. At the time, the Christianity would have been the Latin and Greek rites of Christianity. I mean, this is even before the East-West Schism (11th century), but long after St. Augustine died. There's simply no question of 6th-7th century Christians (at least, non-heretic, mainstream Christians) being polytheists in any serious sense.

When I read the passage about exalting the Most Blessed Mother to the status of a god, what comes to mind is the Greek Orthodoxy's title of the Mother of God as theotokos (the God-bearer), and how protestants are constantly criticizing Catholics (and, by extension, Greek/Eastern Orthodoxy) for deifying and worshipping the Virgin Mary.

It's just not true.

But first, I want to get agreement on this precise point: when Mohommed criticizes these alleged errors, what is he intending to do? Is it his intention to assert that Christians of the time widely believed this?

 

[Sojourn]

Peace of the Lord be with you my dear brother,

But first, I want to get agreement on this precise point: when Mohommed criticizes these alleged errors, what is he intending to do? Is it his intention to assert that Christians of the time widely believed this?

I hope you are well and am glad to see another brother of the Latin rite here, especially someone as versed with philosophy as you are. I myself have wondered about some of the verses you mention and am curious to see what our Muslims friends will have to say.

Oremus pro invicem!

Pax tecum frater,

Sojourn

 

[Sojourn]

Peace be with you sister h-n,

I think that you need to have a reality check, do you think that your going to teach us something that we don't already know?? Your statement sounds as if we don't know about Christianity. Its amazing, Muslims have been around for so long and Traditio thinks he is going to teach us about Christianity as we have not heard about it before.

I think there are many misconceptions on both sides, and personally I can't tell you how many errors about Christianity are stated here by Muslims as the volume is so high. If you don't mind dear sister, you yourself proposed in another thread that Christians believe a father is his son. This of course is not true as the Father is distinct from the Son. So there are many misconceptions and we should encourage having an accurate understanding of eachother, as that will only further our dialogue with one another.

Pax et bonum

 

[Scimitar]

please do clarify for us, these misconceptions within your faith - from your various denominations which conflict in core theological principles.

we thank you in advance.

*grabs popcorn

Scimi

 

[greenhill]

But first, I want to get agreement on this precise point: when Mohommed criticizes these alleged errors, what is he intending to do? Is it his intention to assert that Christians of the time widely believed this?

You see, Prophet Muhammad (saw) was a servant of Allah and was doing His (Allah's) bidding. And he claimed that he only knows what Allah gives him by way of 'knowledge'. If he was told to jump, he would and I am sure he would jump to the best of his ability without even asking 'how high?' Seeing as Allah narrated via the verses in the Quran on prophet Jesus, stating that Jesus was not put to the cross, why would prophet Muhammad want to say otherwise? Hence we should not read his intentions behind these claims but merely to forward Allah's words and deliver the message that he was commanded to do. Whether the Christians widely believed this at the time is not for me to judge, but the message is for all time. Still, the belief of the Trinity exists today. The Quran's message remains the same. There is no Trinity. Jesus remains a true prophet of Allah.

If very few people believed in the Trinity way back then and not totally relevant at the time, it makes it pretty relevant now and the message of the Quran is a guide for those who want to be guided. Either way, the message addresses the pertinent point as far as the ONE GOD is concern. Then or now, Trinity is not true. Why do we know so? Because the Quran says so. The prophet was just a messenger that conveyed the 'glad tidings' and 'truth'. It then rests with us individually to either accept or reject.


eace:

 

[Sojourn]

Peace be with you Scimi,

please do clarify for us, these misconceptions within your faith - from your various denominations which conflict in core theological principles.

we thank you in advance.

*grabs popcorn

Scimi

We had a discussion where you used the example of Unitarian Universalists (a relatively new and small minority) as proof that Christians are in conflict over theological doctrines. By that strand of thinking I can equally argue that Sufis and Ahmadis prove the same for Islam, but I think you would agree that simply finding a disagreement doesn't tell us much, we have to consider where it's coming from.

When it comes to the Trinity there is unity among all Christian churches of Apostolic origin, namely the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Churches, and these alone comprise the majority of Christians worldwide. To this I would add agreement among protestant groups such as the Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc. In the end there overwhelming agreement on the doctrine of the Trinity.

And what is that doctrine? Well, it's surprisingly straightforward: three Persons in one Divine Being. The "trinity" refers to the unity of the three Persons because they possess the same divine essence, and this is why Christianity is a monotheistic and not polytheistic religion. Muslims may claim that we attribute divinity to creatures and at the same time affirm the Trinity as doctrine is monotheism. I don't understand the particular insistence some Muslims have on saying that it's polytheism. For it to be polytheism the three Persons would have to be three separate divine beings, and then there would be no unity of persons and therefore no trinity!

Anyway, hope this helps to elucidate the issue.


Pax

 

[Scimitar]

Bro I'm very confused.

How can 3 be 1? Logic please?

There has never been a case in the abrahamic traditions of having more than one divine being - namely The God... until consrantine got his hands on your faith and twisted it to incorporate pagan theology into it.... you KNOW this but dodge the issue all the time.

Doesn't it strike you as odd how your trinity mirrora that of the followers of mithras / sol invictus / Egyptian pagan pantheon ????

Can't you with an ounce of logic deduce that your faith qaa hijacked by Constantine and pragmatically molested to the point where your place in monotheism is contested not just by Muslims but proponents of your own faith?

Further you gave the example of the ahamdiyahs and sufis as those who have compromised the core theology of islam? How did they do that? Please explain because the core theology of islam is in the 5 pillars and every Muslim adheres to these, be they sufi or otherwise... whereas in your faith, the actual core theology ia compromised and I cited one group within your faith (unitarians) only to prove you a point which you've still not managed to reconcile.

The trinity doesn't make sense. To date, no two christians have ever given me the same response in relation to it.

3 persons in one divine being you say... I ask if that is true then who was jesus praying to when he asked for the cup to be passed? Himself?

Man I got a whole load of these trump questions for you here... but hey, one thing at a time yes?

Scimi

 

[greenhill]

Muslims believe One God - Allah is His name. We can learn more about Him from His 99 names (each with a distinct meaning). That Allah has sent down to every nation a prophet to guide the people to the path of Allah. Jesus was one of them. However, the followers have somehow found a way to break up the Singular Being into multiple parts. All the Quran (via the messenger - prophet Muhammad) is saying is the claim is a false one. Yet it persists until today.

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. (Surah 4:171 – Shakir)


eace:

 

[Sojourn]

Peace be with you Scimi,

(Btw, please tell me if you prefer I call you Scimitar)

Bro I'm very confused.

How can 3 be 1? Logic please?

I never said the number 3 equals the number 1 I said the trinity is a unit of Persons: three Persons in one divine being. Just like saying 1 coin has 2 faces doesn't mean 1 equals 2!

There has never been a case in the abrahamic traditions of having more than one divine being - namely The God... until consrantine got his hands on your faith and twisted it to incorporate pagan theology into it.... you KNOW this but dodge the issue all the time.

I agree with you, there is no case for more than one divine being, but I never claimed there was. In theology precision counts, and there is a distinction between "person" and "divine being." As for the one divine being existing in three persons there is a multiplicity of evidence from the Old Testament, here is one example:

"Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD (Yahweh) out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24

Such passages reveal a shadow of the reality that Jesus would unveil in his time.

Doesn't it strike you as odd how your trinity mirrora that of the followers of mithras / sol invictus / Egyptian pagan pantheon ????

Show me that the followers of Mithras believed in a trinity, let alone that it's anything like what Christians believe. The same goes for Egyptian paganism. Your statement here is simply fictitious.

Can't you with an ounce of logic deduce that your faith qaa hijacked by Constantine and pragmatically molested to the point where your place in monotheism is contested not just by Muslims but proponents of your own faith?

The trinity is expressed in the New Testament and was expounded by many early Christians thus disproving your allegation that Constantine somehow invented a doctrine that predates his existence.

Further you gave the example of the ahamdiyahs and sufis as those who have compromised the core theology of islam? How did they do that? Please explain because the core theology of islam is in the 5 pillars and every Muslim adheres to these, be they sufi or otherwise... whereas in your faith, the actual core theology ia compromised and I cited one group within your faith (unitarians) only to prove you a point which you've still not managed to reconcile.

Every Muslim adheres to the five pillars? Do you accept the Shia are Muslim? Because from what I read their core (the ten Furu al-Din) differs from yours.

Regarding the Unitarians, as mentioned earlier they are a relatively new group and a small minority. There views are about as different from ours as the views of Sufis are to yours, yet the existence of sufis doesn't seem to affect your perception of unity. Perhaps you will suggest that some Sufis are non-Muslim? And by that same token we may say Unitarians are out of the fold. The point is, using small divergent groups to prove a point is not very helpful.

The trinity doesn't make sense. To date, no two christians have ever given me the same response in relation to it.

My experience is different. Perhaps you can share what some Christians have told you?

3 persons in one divine being you say... I ask if that is true then who was jesus praying to when he asked for the cup to be passed? Himself?

Jesus prayed to the Father.

Man I got a whole load of these trump questions for you here... but hey, one thing at a time yes?

Hopefully something more challenging than 3 = 1 and Constantine, eh?


Pax tecum brother,

Sojourn

 

[tearose]

Further you gave the example of the ahamdiyahs and sufis as those who have compromised the core theology of islam? How did they do that? Please explain because the core theology of islam is in the 5 pillars and every Muslim adheres to these, be they sufi or otherwise...

As-salaamu 3laikum,

The Ahmadiyah are not Muslims. They are out of Islam entirely.

 

[tearose]

To the OP,

It has already been explained to you that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah, not the word of Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 3laihi wa salam). So your questions about his intentions do not make sense.

Secondly, many Christians even today direct acts of worship towards Mary the mother of Jesus. They pray to her with a prayer called the 'Hail Mary'. They light candles for her in the church and believe that she can help them and prevent harm from coming to them. I saw some Spanish Christians in a town I used to live in who made a statue of her and threw it into the sea in the belief that she would protect sailors from harm for the rest of that year. They also used to sell stickers for their cars that said 'I drive - she guides me'.

These kinds of belief and acts of worship constitute taking her as a god.

 

[h-n]

Ms. h-n: with all due respect, Islam has been around for roughly 1400 years, no? I'll admit that I'm no expert on what you believe. I am not a Muslim. I was not raised in an Islamic family or in a predominately Islamic culture, and I haven't taken the time to become learned about it. Ditto for Buddhism, Confuscianism, Hinduism, etc. There are a ton of Protestant sects (errant branches of Christianity that started popping up around the 1500s), about which I don't claim to be an expert, nor do I claim to be an expert on Eastern Orthodoxy. I am not a member of that sect.

Why should I assume that Muslims are experts on Christianity?
I thank you! I'll omit the verses from the Quran about which I have no questions, but I will have read the things that you put up, for which, again, you have my gratitude for going to the trouble of searching for them and posting them.



What does Mohommed mean by this, when he says "say not three"? What is he saying that Christians believe? Are there hadiths or commentary that explain this at greater length?



Is Mohommed claiming that Christians believe that Mary and Jesus are two gods, in addition to your "Allah," who is a third god?



Actually, these are the questions that I have:

1. When Mohommed says the above, does he put these supposedly errant doctrines into the mouth of the Christians?

2. If he is doing that, do you think that he is expressing himself as a prophet of God, and therefore inerrantly/infallibly?

3. If Christians don't believe that (and didn't believe that at the time of Mohommed), and, therefore, Mohommed is putting doctrines into the mouths of the Christians which they didn't hold, wouldn't that prove that Mohommed was not God's prophet?

You have really shown yourself to be an idiot-there are no other words. Even on your previous thread which the title was "Diverse problems for Islam" at the top of my head. Here is why you have no sense;-

1. People viewing your posts here can simply read that you don't know much about Islam-which you agree to, so what position are you in to write a thread about Islam saying that we have problems???

Now in this thread, your asking what we believe on Christianity because you yourself say you don't know- you get the info in under 1 day and are already attacking Islam ^o)

2. On your previous thread, you talked of Plato, Aristotle who are not Prophets of God. You LIE about your own religion by making up stories ie that there will be no Garden of Paradise-where does that say in the bible?? Now here you are saying that your going to speak from a Christian perspective.

It has already made mention to you about Islam-so why are you saying that its only 1400 years old???? On your previous thread.

Did Prophet David peace be upon him create a different religion from Prophet Solomon peace be upon him?? No he did not.

Did Prophet Moses peace be upon him create a different religion from Prophet Noah peace be upon him? No he did not.

The message from God has always been the same to;-

-worship the one God,
-remember the Day of Judgement,
-accept the existance of Paradise and Hell

If people were doing well on the above, then God wouldn't need to send another Prophet, as they are there to help people heed and warn them-hence them being known as "warners".

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet chosen by God-the bible has nothing to suggest there will be another. The Christians and the Jews were not a good help, and thus God sent the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

God gave the revelations to the Prophet, where he has given us accurate quotes on what will be even said on the Day of Judgement.

Your working on the premise that people did not say such a thing, there are plenty of Christians making up such a things, as in the past even taking Mary as a God, do not people even pray to her today.

Why are you asking us of not of three?-That clearly is reference to the trinity. Here your basically insulting our intelligence.

Your going around in circles and just claiming that we don't understand. And avoiding the valid points, which you have not answered;-

Do you not accept Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as your saviour? Yes/No
Do you not say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is going to judge everyone on the Day of Judgement? Yes/No.
Do you not say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a "son" of God?? Yes/No
Do you not say that the son is the father, the father is the son etc? Yes/No?

Well the Muslims answer no we don't accept the above and never will.

 

[h-n]

Peace be with you sister h-n,



I think there are many misconceptions on both sides, and personally I can't tell you how many errors about Christianity are stated here by Muslims as the volume is so high. If you don't mind dear sister, you yourself proposed in another thread that Christians believe a father is his son. This of course is not true as the Father is distinct from the Son. So there are many misconceptions and we should encourage having an accurate understanding of eachother, as that will only further our dialogue with one another.

Pax et bonum

WE don't have any misconceptions we have heard about the trinity and even the above being asked by Traditio what we mean my one of three-your both frankly insulting people's intelligence.

 

[BlueOwl358]

Even a coin, if it has a soul, can either have 2 consciousnesses or one, it can either have two speeches that are different, and think different, or have one central hive mind. Either one soul, but the body is abnormal, or two souls with two faces stuck together, but the two cannot be taken as one persona, not anymore then siamese twins. Twins have different brains, thoughts, and souls, and cannot be referred to as one entity. So I fail to see how a coin can be one entity and two, for a being, or what you call a person is no different. There can be one individual or two or three of even a million but not all at the same time. One body can have one being in it, or two souls stuck in one body, but not be three persons, and be called one persona at the same time.

Either Jesus, the Ghost, and the Father can have different chains of thought, and be different, or have one chain of thought, and be one being, but they can't be three minds and the mind of God at the same time.

The Trinity is a belief found in Pagan Hinduism as much as Christianity. The Trimurti, the Ayyavazhi Trinity, and even the Trikaya in Mahayana Buddhism. Shiva, Brahma, and Vishnu, three different persons with different thoughts, all who have sprung from the ultimate truth of Brahman. Brahman is said to be infinite, with all knowledge in Hinduism and anyone who has attained perfection of mind is said to be part of Brahman. No different then Christianity.

Because of My affection for Thee I shall speak to Thee of that Supreme Brahman, Who is ever Existent, Intelligent, and Who is dearer to Me than life itself. O Maheshvari! the eternal, intelligent, infinite Brahman may be known in Its real Self or by Its external signs. That Which is changeless, existent only, and beyond both mind and speech, Which shines as the Truth amidst the illusion of the three worlds, is the Brahman according to Its real nature. That Brahman is known in samadhi-yoga by those who look upon all things alike, who are above all contraries, devoid of doubt, free of all illusion regarding body and soul. That same Brahman is known from His external signs, from Whom the whole universe has sprung, in Whom when so sprung It exists, and into Whom all things return. That which is known by intuition may also be perceived from these external signs. For those who would know Him through these external signs, for them sadhana is enjoined. Mahanirvana Tantra: Tantra of the Great Liberation, as translated by Arthur Avalon (1913)

Hey, the following quote can describe the Christian thought of God and Jesus more so then their own scriptures.

Brahman and Śakti are identical. If you accept the one, you must accept the other. It is like fire and its power to burn. If you see the fire, you must recognize its power to burn also. You cannot think of fire without its power to burn, nor can you think of the power to burn without fire. You cannot conceive of the sun's rays without the sun, nor can you conceive of the sun without its rays. You cannot think of the milk without the whiteness, and again, you cannot think of the whiteness without the milk. Thus one cannot think of Brahman without Śakti, or of Śakti without Brahman. One cannot think of the Absolute without the Relative, or of the Relative without the Absolute. Ramakrishna, in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna (1942), p. 134

See that, that is Hindu, and it describes Trinitarian Christianianity as much as it does Hinduism. Yet one is called Pagan and the other Monothiest. Ramakrishna and Paul would have been great buddies, I think. There, then the Trinity is not any more Monothiest then Hinduism.

If the Christian version of Jesus ever existed, he may as well come from India and came to Judea. You can see the influences.

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9)

... and the Buddha comforts him, "Enough, Vakkali. Why do you want to see this filthy body? Whoever sees the Dhamma sees me; whoever sees me sees the Dhamma." (Samyutta Nikaya (SN 22.87))

No wonder some people believe Jesus went to Kashmir.
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