The Trinity and Islam: What does Mohommed Say?

[M.I.A.]

What's wrong with using wikipedia as a quick and easy reference for birth and death dates? Do you dispute the dates that I gave? The only point that I wanted to make was that Mohommed was alive and died: 1. after St. Augustine flourished and 2. prior to the East-West Schism.

Ahh seriously most people do better by ignoring me apparently.

I can only say of my own experience, I'm not full of knowledge so I'm probably as disrespectful as you.

But recently I read the prophets birthday pbuh could be on any number of days..3-4-5 can't remember the numbers exactly.

So I didn't even ask you how accurate wikipedia was.. Or who wrote it.

I expected to carry on from a previous post in which I mentioned how Islam faces the same problems as Christianity.. By looking at one you can figure out what the other one should avoid... Or not.

But its obviously not easy to make the link.

I have very little historical knowledge, I am a scientist.. Which makes my approach unorthodox for sure.

Although I'm not a scientist.. I'm a sceptical scientist. Outcasts are often full of it.

Unfortunately I can tell you we are the monsters we create.. So if your views change for better or worse during this thread only god knows.

But scepticism does not negate truth.. In religion or science.

You can argue all day and not learn anything if you want. Agendas or character lol.

Either way, good news and glad tidings are things that have to be worked towards

 

[YusufNoor]

Peace be with you Yusuf,

And yet Muslims have no problem with saying the Quran is uncreated and eternal, two characteristics that properly speaking can only be attributed to God. Explain to me why it's not shirk to attribute Divine qualities to a book and I'll give you the same reasons why it's not shirk to attribute them to a man. For in the end we're not that different, you believe the Speech of Allah was made kitab and we believe the Word of God was made flesh. In neither case is the oneness of God somehow altered since the Speech of Allah is of Allah and the Word of God is of God.

excellent point! i do not say that the Qur'an is "uncreated and eternal". i know it was one of the Imams that fought for the issue, but i haven't looked at it. seems like a case of making a statement that there is no need for. uncreated and eternal are attributes of Allah. the Prophet, pbuh, never made that direct statement. it definitely sounds like shirk, but i haven't looked at it. no need, too. it would be interesting to see the arguments, though.

Is it wrong for a Muslim to ask an older devout man or woman for example, to make du'a and pray for them? Do you believe Allah would prefer you pray to him directly instead? Why or why not?

you can ask anyone. anyone that you can actually ask.

We of course have no issues with such practices on earth, and neither do we have issue seeking assistance from brothers and sisters in Heaven.

there is no Biblical reference to people being in heaven, after they die.

Whether on earth or in heaven, seeking intercession is permissible. Problems arise if one believes in a "soul sleep" or starts asking how it is that the "dead" can hear. The answer of course is that the Saints are not dead, they are alive with God in heaven, and they can "hear" because God reveals our petitions to them.

Take your time my friend, and peace be with you as well

so, here, you're making statements that are not supported by your scriptures. then you make a circular argument, again, not found in your scriptures. you said:

The answer of course is that the Saints are not dead, they are alive with God in heaven, and they can "hear" because God reveals our petitions to them.

then why do people pray to saints? shouldn't they be prayer to God to "reveal our petitions to them?" and you'd be asking God to tell the dead people to pray to Him? that would be praying to God though. if you pray to a dead Mary, she's still dead.

the Bible says in Ecclesiastes 9:5:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

that settles it. according to your Bible, the dead know nothing. so you're praying to someone that has no knowledge of anything, and that would include your prayer!

no, i saw a comment that i need to rebut.

ma salama

 

[OmAbdullah]

Alhamdulillah, the Muslim brothers and sisters have put beautiful posts with very clear verses from the Holy Quraan which make the things very clear. But sad to see that the Christian friends don't show any satisfaction. They put forward vague questions again and again proving that they don't want to accept the reality. One of them using the name of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam very lightly and accusing him to be the writer of the Holy Quraan, is showing his internal hate against the great Prophet and Messenger of Allah Almighty.


O Christian fellows, Allah Almighty God has given you great minds and according to a hadeeth ( saying of the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam), Allah has sworn by Allah's HONOR and Jalaal that among Allah' creation, the most honorable in the Sight of Allah is intellect/mind and Allah shall give Reward and Paradise as well as punishment and Hell on the bases of one's mind/intellect. (Allah knows best the words of Allah's Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wasallam, may Allah forgive me any mistake concerning the hadeeth shareef, aameen).
I sincerely advise the Christian fellows to sit alone and sincerely ask your minds. Then don't reject the opinion/advice of your minds. Remember that Allah is watching your inside, and your internal fighting and conflict against your wisdom and conscience are not hidden from Allah Who is the Creator, The Lord and the God of all creation, Who begetted not, nor was HE begotten.


Right at the time of death you will cry and regret saying, "O God how we wasted our precious life in useless conjectures and useless arguments, now we have no way of escape from the grievous punishment.

Alas! regretting after death will be useless. This is the only time to think seriously and choose the correct religion. Surely your wisdom will guide you correctly. But the condition is that you must become sincere to yourself and consider this matter seriously.

Even in your own Bible you will find the statements of Jesus that he worships his Lord. Surely you find numerous contradictory statements in Bible. If you give a little attention to your Bible or Gospel, you will find some sensible statements scattered among many senseless contradictory statements. If you think seriously and sincerely, you will clearly understand that the Book seems to be originally Divine but surely some human hands have added false statements to it. This happened because God did not preserve it. So the friends of Satan changed it. God did not preserve it because it was not Final Revelation. God had the plan to send another Prophet and reveal the Final Book to him. So you must search a Divine Book which is preserved by God. That Book is the Holy Quraan, and God Allah preserved it because it is Final. Allah doesn't give chance to mankind to plea on the Day of Judgment that they had no source of guidance. So please read the meaning of Quraan and you will surely see that Quraan is a SELF WITNESS Book that it cannot be written by any human being. So it is definitely Divine and it is a proof of the Prophet hood of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasallam.


I have a question. I am greatly surprised that why can't the Christians believe that Jesus (Eisa alaihi salaam ) could be created without father??? Don't they see that Almighty God created Adam (alaihi salaam) without father and mother? Then how do they think that the Almighty God who created heavens and the earth, cannot create a son from a virgin? The creation of numerous human beings by the union of father and mother is also by the great creative abilities of Almighty God Allah. Can any man or any being claim that he can create a child by the union of father and mother? No! No! So it is only Allah who can create in any way. Therefore accepting Jesus to be the son of Mary (Maryam) only, is according to our wisdom and not accepting it is against our wisdom.

Almighty God wants from mankind, that we must believe in the absolute oneness of God and we must obey HIM and worship HIM only. For that purpose God sent prophets to guide us by the Divine knowledge revealed to them. Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam is the Final of the Prophets. Whoever doesn't believe in him or doesn't follow him, will be punished in the Hell-Fire forever. Please protect yourselves from the everlasting punishment.

 

[OmAbdullah]

To be fair I don't know how accurately the Quran is preserved, it is beyond reproach and questioning for most people.

The question still stands though, even if the words are the same for 1400 years, division has still appeared.

I can't even speculate what the mission was. Its not like its written in stone or something.

I would guess it was to bring the true form of monotheism back to the people or at least in part.

But each of the prophets pbut probably had a specific job to do.. And were built accordingl

The Holy Quraan is preserved in its entirety so much so that the enemies couldn't change even a single letter. Yes, Check the letters ,ن, ص,ق these are the letters at the beginning of surah Qaaf, surah Sad and surah Al Qalam respectively. In the last 1435 years these letters couldn't be changed. Allah has promised to preserve the Quraan as we can see in the verse 9 of surah Al Hijar: Allah said:

Surely WE sent down this admonition and WE will preserve it.

This is the miracle of the Holy Quraan that no one could change it and it shall remain preserved in its entirety till the end of this world.

If you don't read the Holy Quraan to get its thorough understanding, then please don't discuss it because you are misleading those readers of your posts that are ignorant from the Quraan.

To be fair the Quranic viewpoint and I'm probably liberally paraphrasing here.. Is that the teachings of Jesus pbuh were a warning rather than a way of life.
I may be wrong but would have to read a lot just to find my mistake

I guess that is the difference here, the Quran is preserved in its entirety. Although 1400 years have lead to many interpretations on it STILL!.

What do you mean by this statement? Explain the "viewpoint" with evidence.

That is true. You have to read a lot to protect yourself from misleading people.


There is difference between the text of the Holy Quraan and its interpretations. Quraanic text is fully preserved, In its translation the translators can choose different words with the same meanings. The interpretations may be many even for the same verse, this is because the verses of Quraan are very deep, they may have more than one applications. and they are all correct.