The trouble with prophets

[Follower]

As I have been studying the Quran for about 4 years now there is a very big possibility that the Quran has been interpreted wrong. Not translated wrong but interpreted wrong from the it was revealed by Mohammad.

 

[جوري]

^^ oh? How so, pls do share your enlightnment....

 

[K.Venugopal]

As I have been studying the Quran for about 4 years now there is a very big possibility that the Quran has been interpreted wrong. Not translated wrong but interpreted wrong from the it was revealed by Mohammad.

New interpretations of the Quran will emerge in due course to adapt it to the increasing popularity of the ancient Hindu vision of Advaita - the vision that says all existence is one. In fact, Sufism is Advaita expressed by the Muslim mystics of Persia (and maybe Arabia?). Why, Sufism may have even ante-dated Islam. Sufism may well be the future of Islam if the call given by Islam to transcend idol worship reaches its logical conclusion - we cannot have an Allah separate from us. We have to internalize Allah and achieve the Advaita stage, where alone idol worship ends.

 

[- Qatada -]

No, k.venugopal - persian sufism strays from the teachings of the Prophetic guidance;

http://idawah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-divisions/1808-sectarian-article-sufism-details.html

 

[Pygoscelis]

Everything is possible indeed, as is the burden of proof to substnatiate it

Pyg is a tax evader--pyg is a glutton--Pyg panders commercial sex workers---pyg a homophile with an internet site for human trafficking---pyg a yokelish oaf... indeed all possible..

the next step is to put ones money where the mouth is!

Indeed. And all of these little slanders against me would have no evidence to back them up. Just like the claims about the prophet. Good analogy.

 

[جوري]

Indeed. And all of these little slanders against me would have no evidence to back them up. Just like the claims about the prophet. Good analogy.

It is great how you are so adept at paraphrasing!
analogy aside-- I wouldn't put you in the same categories as any honorable historical figure though- unfounded as your claims -- and no matter your disenchantment with them.. character always prevails over rumors (good or bad)
history and age old religious text is a done deal-- and your opinion and personal interpretation too insignificant in the scheme of it all to matter!...


cheers

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is great how you are so adept at paraphrasing!

What did I paraphrase?

I wouldn't put you in the same categories as any honorable historical figure though

I love you too. And when you try to insult me it is very cute.

- unfounded as your claims -- and no matter your disenchantment with them..

What claims?

and your opinion and personal interpretation too insignificant in the scheme of it all to matter!...

So why do you feel compelled to comment on them and elicit dialogue? If you didn't snipe at people maybe they'd go away.

 

[جوري]

What did I paraphrase?

inclusion impediment?

I love you too. And when you try to insult me it is very cute.

You should get out more!

What claims?

scroll to your post on the previous page!

So why do you feel compelled to comment on them and elicit dialogue? If you didn't snipe at people maybe they'd go away.

You can start now, let's see how it works!

cheers

 

[Follower]

Do muslims consider their prophets sinless? All people are both saints and sinners!!

There is the huge possiblity that in Mohammad's case the Quran has been misinterpreted. If you read it carefully alongside the Holy Bible it becomes a study guide for the Bible.

I remember reading that at the time of Mohammad there was not yet a Holy Bible written in Arabic. The Arabs needed help in this area because they were so pagan oriented.

 

[جوري]

Do muslims consider their prophets sinless? All people are both saints and sinners!!

Prophets make mistakes.. sinning as they do in the bible, is a different story all together.. and is an innovation of the scribes as is most of the bible -- they are chosen for a reason!

REMOVING DOUBTS ABOUT THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE PROPHETS

Introduction
Accusations of the Bible against the Prophets
The Qur’an absolves the Prophets from all the accusations against them in the Bible and exalts them


Introduction

There are some verses in the Qur’an which seem, at first sight, to reprimand certain Prophets for some of their actions, or which give the image that a Prophet may commit a sin in the normal usage of the word. Before clarifying specific examples in this respect in order to remove all the doubts about the infallibility of the Prophets, it may be appropriate to acquit the Prophets of the calumnies against them of the present versions of the Bible. These disgusting calumnies, whose existence is inconceivable in an uncorrupted Divine Scripture, are certain, like many other additions and distortions, to have found their way into the Bible in later times.




Accusations of the Bible against the Prophets

In the book of Genesis, 19, 30-38, it is written that the two daughters of the Prophet Lot got their father to drink wine and then lay with him so as to become pregnant by him. This is obviously the most disgusting of calumnies that could be uttered or written against a Prophet. Lot’s people of the cities of Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed by God because of their immoralities, and Lot and his daughters were, according to the Bible itself, the only ones to be spared from that destruction on account of their belief, good conduct and decency. The crime of which the Bible accuses the Prophet Lot is worse than what his people were destroyed for.

In the book of Genesis, chapter 38, a story is mentioned in which Jacob’s son, Judah, is supposed to have fornicated with the wife of his son. The woman gave birth, as a result of this fornication, to twin boys, and some of the Israelite Prophets were descended from them.

It is inconceivable that a Prophet should have committed fornication. Our Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, explicitly declared that there is not a single case of fornication in his lineage back to Adam. He also stated that all the Prophets are brothers descended from the same father. Our Prophet is a descendant of Abraham, upon him be peace, as were Judah and the other Israelite Prophets, so it is impossible for any of them to be the child of an illicit intercourse, or — God forbid such a thought! — to have fornicated.

In the second book of Samuel, chapter 11, it is written that the Prophet David fell in love with the wife of one of his commanders and slept with her without marriage. According to the Bible, he also got the commander to be put in the front line where the fighting was fiercest and, after the death of the commander, he married his wife.

David, upon him be peace, is a Prophet who was given a Divine Scripture — the Psalms — and who is praised in the Qur’an for his sincere and profound devotion to God:

Be patient at what they say, and remember Our servant David, the man of strength and abilities. For he ever turned to God in sincere devotion and submission. It was We that made the mountains declare, in unison with him, Our praises, at eventide and at the break of day, and the birds gathered (in assemblies): all with him did turn to Him (in profound devotion). We strengthened his kingdom and gave him wisdom and sound judgement (in speech and decision.) (Sad, 38.17-20)

Though a king, he lived a simple life by his own labour. He cried much out of fear of God and used to fast every other day. This kind of fast was recommended by our Prophet to some of his Companions who sought the most rewarding type of supererogatory fasting. Is it at all conceivable that such a noble Prophet could fornicate and plot the death of his commander in order to take his wife?

In the first Book of Kings, chapter 11, Solomon is blamed for having married many foreign women from the nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, ‘You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods,’ and therefore of doing such evil as following the gods and goddesses (idols) of some other tribes.





The Qur’an absolves the Prophets from all the accusations against them in the Bible and exalts them

If the Qur’an had not been sent, we could not have known the truth about the previous Prophets. The Qur’an exalts them all as being sincere, devout and thankful servants of God. As it freed Jesus from the deification of Christians and the denial of the Jews and glorified God from Christians’ attributing to Him sons and daughters, so too, it acquitted all the Israelite and non-Israelite Prophets of having committed the disgusting sins attributed to them in the Bible. It mentions Jesus as a spirit from God breathed into the Virgin Mary, Abraham as an intimate friend of God, Moses as one who spoke to God and Solomon as a king and a Prophet who prayed to Him humbly: O my Lord! So order me that I may be grateful for your favours, which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You; and admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants (al-Naml, 27.19). So, Solomon, besides never having worshipped anything other than God, never committed a sin and, despite being the greatest and most powerful of kings that ever lived, remained a humble servant of God until his death.

In addition to such calumnies against the Prophets, the Bible is full of assertions unbecoming to a Scripture. For example, it writes that although the Prophet Isaac wanted to bless his older son Esau, he mistakenly blessed Jacob instead, as a result of his wife Rebaka’s trick (Genesis, 27). Also, the Bible claims that the Prophet Jacob wrestled with God, who appeared to him in the form of a man (Genesis, 32).


http://www.ymsite.com/books/infinitelight/infpg35.html

There is the huge possiblity that in Mohammad's case the Quran has been misinterpreted. If you read it carefully alongside the Holy Bible it becomes a study guide for the Bible.

The Quran is nothing like the bible.. rather unfair to even compare them.. books about the sayings of Jesus if any might be made comprable to hadiths.. but even hadith has a system of Isnad of tawatur and uhad, rendering the weak ones null.. where as in Christianity any little thing a so-called holy person does becomes a way of life, like 'st. Anthony' and his pigs

http://www.h-net.org/~nilas/seasons/stanthony.html

I remember reading that at the time of Mohammad there was not yet a Holy Bible written in Arabic. The Arabs needed help in this area because they were so pagan oriented.

That is great then perhaps some of you can forgo the route of how the Quran copies from the bible, or Greek literature, or Jews or or or...

you can only make so many exculpations before the truth becomes obvious!

the Quran is a book like no other.. whereas most Messengers took their miracles with them, prophet Mohammed's PBUH miracle withstands the test of time!

[Media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySYxNy50Bxc[/Media]​

show me a chapter that reads like this, that rhymes like this, that contemplates like this, that reasons like this, that transcends the test of time like this from your bible?

 

[Woodrow]

Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet. I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?

I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.

 

[Qingu]

I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.

But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.

I respectfully disagree with your theory.

One of my reasons is simply : Prophecy

If they were making this up, how come there are so many prophecies that have been fulfilled by each prophet? Muhammad was even foretold by the Bible.

Also : Miracles

THe prophets all had supernatural miracles.

Moses: Red Sea ( the Quran foretold the discovery of the Pharoes body too, which has occurred)

Jesus: healing, raising dead

Muhammad : various ones, most importantly the Quran

 

[Qingu]

Simplest way I can say to you is to look at it in a logical way let me ask you how do you normally tell whether a person is telling the truth. What sort of things do you look for before coming to an answer?

1. Has the person in question claimed to have ridden a flying donkey up into the sky?

2. Actually, I think #1 ought to do it.

 

[K.Venugopal]

1. Has the person in question claimed to have ridden a flying donkey up into the sky?

2. Actually, I think #1 ought to do it.

Not a donkey, a horse.

 

[Qingu]

I respectfully disagree with your theory.

One of my reasons is simply : Prophecy

If they were making this up, how come there are so many prophecies that have been fulfilled by each prophet? Muhammad was even foretold by the Bible.

Right. Everything was foretold by the Bible, you just have to interpret it correctly. Just like Nostradamus.

My favorite is when the Bible explicitly fortells that the city of Tyre will be permanently destroyed. (Google Earth disagrees)

Also : Miracles

THe prophets all had supernatural miracles.

Moses: Red Sea ( the Quran foretold the discovery of the Pharoes body too, which has occurred)

Jesus: healing, raising dead

Muhammad : various ones, most importantly the Quran

You forgot:

• Krishna: had magic weapons, fought armies of demons, was an avatar of the god Vishnu

• Sargon of Akkad: born of the gods, magically survived floating down a river in a reed basket as a child

• Hammurabi: gods personally handed him his set of laws, gave him power to conquer all lands

• Rama: used magic weapons, could shoot magic "astras" as powerful as nuclear explosions, was actually avatar of Vishnu

• Hanuman: was a talking monkey, could grow as big as a mountain and pick up and throw mountains

• Sidharta Guatema (aka the Buddha): achieved enlightenment, fought and controlled demons

• Zoroaster: directly communed with the god Ahura Mazda, talked to angels, had control over various elements

• Roman Emperor Vespasian: magically healed a cripple and a blind person, according to the Roman historian Seutonius

• Paul: could magically curse people and raise the dead

• Many Catholic saints had magic powers, such as the ability to control weather and the flights of birds

• Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism: performed healings and talked to angels

And there are more modern examples than I can even keep track of. The Heaven's Gate cult claimed to be in contact with UFO's. Uri Geller has psychic powers. Jim Jones was a prophet of God. Aum Shinrikyo's leader also had magic powers. Millions of people believe they have been contacted by aliens, millions more believe in psychics and astrologers. Primitive tribes on islands in the Pacific form cargo cults, where they construct wooden radios and build fake airplane landing strips so they can magically summon airplanes. Rastafarians believe the Emperor of Ethiopia was a prophet of God and had magic powers.

The followers of all these cults will swear by the truth of their prophets' powers, just like the hadith writers did with Muhammad's.

 

[Qingu]

Not a donkey, a horse.

Eh. Al-Buraq sounds more like a donkey than a horse to me (according to Bukhari, it was larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule).

But I can see how one would confuse Muhammad's magical steed with Pegasus.

 

[Woodrow]

But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.

I think you are correct in what you said. I don't think you went far enough. Although I agree with what you say, none of that rules out Muhammad(PBUH) as being the final Prophet(PBUT)

It is my belief that Muhammad(PBUH) was a true prophet and that He is the final Prophet(PBUH)

I base my belief upon what I have sought out myself, not by anything I was taught by others. If I had followed the wishes and plans of what I was taught I'd be a jolly fat monk sitting in a monastery today. Or possibly even a diocesan priest with dreams of being a Cardinal or even Pope.

Of course Islam incorporated old truths, The Qur'an was not a new message, it is a complete understanding of what was taught and given in the past. The truth is the truth, no matter when it was given or who it was given to.

 

[Qingu]

I think you are correct in what you said. I don't think you went far enough. Although I agree with what you say, none of that rules out Muhammad(PBUH) as being the final Prophet(PBUT)

I suppose not, but by the same logic it doesn't rule out the leader of Aum Shinrikyo being the final prophet either.

It does rule out any claim that Islam is somehow unique in incorporating previous prophets. It's not unique, it's savvy religious marketing.

It is my belief that Muhammad(PBUH) was a true prophet and that He is the final Prophet(PBUH)

Well, that explains why your way of life is listed as "Muslim."

I base my belief upon what I have sought out myself, not by anything I was taught by others. If I had followed the wishes and plans of what I was taught I'd be a jolly fat monk sitting in a monastery today. Or possibly even a diocesan priest with dreams of being a Cardinal or even Pope.

I can understand this. I think it's easier to be a religious Muslim than a religious Christian. You don't have to rationalize away quite as much nonsense, like the Trinity or the Old Testament.

Though it sounds like you've always been religious. Ever thought of giving atheism a try? The benefits aren't as good, but you totally get to go around murdering people like in Grand Theft Auto.

Of course Islam incorporated old truths, The Qur'an was not a new message, it is a complete understanding of what was taught and given in the past. The truth is the truth, no matter when it was given or who it was given to.

But Mormons say the same exact thing about the Book of Mormon. Scientologists say the same thing about Dianetics, claiming it completes the spirituality first explored by religions of the past. The early Christian church claimed the same thing about the New Testament, saying it complemented and completed the Old Testament. And the early Hebrews probably said the same thing when they stole their creation and flood myths from the Babylonians and switched the names of the gods around.

Every religion incorporates "old truths." It's how new religions get people from the old religions to join. You can basically understand syncretism as an early form of marketing.

 

[August]

I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.

How then do you view a group such as the Mormons? They also claim that the Bible is full of errors and omissions, and say that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to bring back the "fullness of the Gospel." I think the Mormon case somewhat less rational than the Islamic one, but argues similar along similar lines.