The True Message of Jesus Christ

[MustafaMc]

I don't know if you realize this, but Christians respect Paul as much as Muslim do Muhammad.

Yes, and choose to believe either the gospel that Paul received by direct revelation and that he preached to the Gentiles or the Quran that Muhammad (saaws) received through the Angel Gabriel and to reject the other as false. I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws) and you admitted that you and all Christians follow Paul. That was an exceedingly brave and honest statement!

 

[Burninglight]

The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus. the trail that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:2 where Paul was found to be a heretic and was expelled.

Paul also fails the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Paul teaches people away from the need for "keeping God laws" any more.
Yeshua "Jesus" passes the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Jesus primary ministry doctrine is for everyone to always keep the commandments of God. This is also a major theme throughout the Bible for everyone to always keep the commandments of God.

What a horrible thought. I have never heard of such a thing. The church of Ephesus? The trinity Paul taught? How can you say such a thing? Where is you source for this serious comment of yours? Paul was a great prophet apostle. All he did was point to Christ Jesus. Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.

 

[Burninglight]

Nor is anything that you said backed up by the original teachings of Jesus and God himself. You do not have any solid foundations for your baseless assertions regarding Jesus being the son of God for BHebrew Scholars have confirmed that Jesus was only referred to as a Prophet. Even the Dideche confirmed this.

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” (Revelation 19:10). - Proving he was a Prophet and NOT GOD!


How long will you continue trying to fool yourself?

How I am I fooling myself?

I never said that particular statement was Jesus. But clearly he confirms tge testimony of Jesus to be that of Prophecy NOT that of a deity or partner of God.

Yes, you did. You meant to imply exactly that using that verse above. Anyone can see that. Why deny it? When someone has the testimony of Jesus , they are worshipping God, because they have the spirit of prophecy. That is what the angel is saying. All prophecy is fufilled in Jesus. that is the crux of the verse.

 

[Ramadhan]

What a horrible thought. I have never heard of such a thing. The church of Ephesus? The trinity Paul taught? How can you say such a thing? Where is you source for this serious comment of yours? Paul was a great prophet apostle. All he did was point to Christ Jesus. Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.

who appointed Paul as apostle?

In fact, paul was the false prophet, according to Jesus (pbuh):

Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible. 25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (Paul’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus-revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Paul "prophesied" for example about persecutions of Christians in future, that were already reality and so not prophecy at all, and even claimed to be wittness to resurrection of Jesus, so God soon killed him as He promised to do in Deut.18:20-22 for ALL false prophets)….28. Wherever the corpse is (new religion), there the vultures will gather (satan strikes).”

paul claimed to have done signs and miracles:

2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”

Paul did not pulled the bible together, in fact, he was opposed to the teachings of Jesus (pbuh), when Jesus commanded to keep all commandments, paul said to do away with the commandments. paulk was even opposed by the apostles.
Also, half of NT are the words of paul, while less than 18% of NT is direct saying and action of jesus (pbuh), so yes, you take the words of paul as more important than Jesus (pbuh).

We have again and again provided you with direct statements by jesus that he is not God, but you decide to interpret some vague statements that are interpreted by paul in his epistles that jesus was god who came down to earth to die.

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

So, according to this verse, jesus is not God.

am I correct?

According to that verse God is ONE. I never said on this forum that Jesus is God. I only say what I know that God said or what the Bible says about Jesus. Jesus never said I am God, but he made some strong claims about Himself that was enough to have the Jews think he was claiming equality with God and to accuse Him of blasphemey and to stone Him. You must come to you own conclusion. Iam not going explicitly state something that the Bible doesn't do. But I can tell you the Bible prophecied that a son is given and the govenment shall be on His shoulder and he will be called Mighty God... and much more. Everyone will be judged based on how they see Jesus. I can tell you the Bible unequivocally states that he died and rose and He is called the son of God. If you are asking me if I believe this? the answer is yes, but I never stated that Jesus is God the father. But Jesus did tell Philip "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" Everyone has to come to thier own conclusions about what to do with Jesus /Yeshua in their lives.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

According to that verse God is ONE. I never said on this forum that Jesus is God

So Jesus is not God.

Good.

Then why do you worship Jesus if you believe he is not God?

in Bible, God (swt) has repeatedly commanded to ONLY worship GOD (swt).

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

So Jesus is not God.

Good.

Then why do you worship Jesus if you believe he is not God?

in Bible, God (swt) has repeatedly commanded to ONLY worship GOD (swt).

Hold on there. I feel like you are trying to trap me. I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either! The angels are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

Hold on there. I feel like you are trying to trap me.

why do I have to trap you?
You are trapping yourself in your own imagination.

I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either!

So what are you saying here?
Is Jesus God or not?

The angels are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus

What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.

I use Scripture when someone challenges what I say. Angels prostrating before Adam is in the Quran not the Bible. So you cannot question me based on something you believe. So you admit that angels were commanded to worship Adam judging from your question. So why do you have such a hard time with worshipping the last Adam (Jesus)?? You might tell me that you should only worship and serve Allah. If that is true why were angels commanded to worship Allah's creation in the Quran?

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

why do I have to trap you?
You are trapping yourself in your own imagination.

uhmm

Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either!
So what are you saying here?
Is Jesus God or not?

You must come to your own conclusion and not ask me that which I have no right to say to you, but I can tell you He is the Son of God. I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him. I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?

lol, maybe you should ask Richard Burnish ;D

 

[Tyrion]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him. I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?

Are the scriptures really clear on that matter? Are the scriptures even trustworthy when it comes to this? I don't think so. Don't believe the Bible just because the Bible says to believe in it. Faith without reason is blind... Blind faith is dangerous.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

I use Scripture when someone challenges what I say.

Then quote the verses where people and angels worship Jesus (pbuh) as you christians are worshiping him

Angels prostrating before Adam is in the Quran not the Bible. So you cannot question me based on something you believe. So you admit that angels were commanded to worship Adam judging from your question.

Did I say that angels worship Adam (pbuh)?

Please do not twist your words, I am sure a "true biblical christian" would NEVER twist anyone's words.

I said angels were told to prostrate to adam (pbuh).

So why do you have such a hard time with worshipping the last Adam (Jesus)??

Before you accuse me of twisting your words, let me ask you:
does this mean you believe that Jesus is the last Adam?

You might tell me that you should only worship and serve Allah. If that is true why were angels commanded to worship Allah's creation in the Quran?

You are making false statements about Islam AGAIN.
Please show me Qur'an verses where Allah told angels to worship Allah's creation?

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

You must come to your own conclusion and not ask me that which I have no right to say to you, but I can tell you He is the Son of God

And I have shown you that according to bible, God has plenty of sons.

so you claim you have no right to answer this question: "is jesus god"?

As you keep claiming to go back to the scripture, then please tell me which biblical verses that tell you that you cannot answer the question whether jesus is god or not.

I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him.

Can you please tell us the whole passage why Jesus said that?
does the scriptures tell you to worship jesus as you worship God?
Please give evidence.

I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?

Why would I need to trap you?
You claim to have the truth, but why do you keep secret your truth?

in Islam, we are open to ALL questions, we do not shy away from questions. In fact, before someone wants to revert to Islam, we encourage them to ask as many questions as they want, just ask any reverts in this forum.

But it seems in christianity there are questions that are not allowed to be asked or to be answered.

 

[Ramadhan]

Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.

Not true. the bible versions that exist today went thorugh hundreds of years of editing, and the primary source was council of nicea in the FOURTH century who decided which types of gospels that conformed the traditional pagan belief of latin society and it was constantine who burned, detroyed and exterminated hundreds of gospels and true followers of jesus (pbuh) who did not conform to their twisted belief.

even today bible is still undergoing editing process, evidenced by thosands and thousands of different bibles.

apparently you prefer the words of men rather than words of god (swt).

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

Are the scriptures really clear on that matter? Are the scriptures even trustworthy when it comes to this? I don't think so. Don't believe the Bible just because the Bible says to believe in it. Faith without reason is blind... Blind faith is dangerous

It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.

 

[Burninglight]

Not true. the bible versions that exist today went thorugh hundreds of years of editing, and the primary source was council of nicea in the FOURTH century who decided which types of gospels that conformed the traditional pagan belief of latin society and it was constantine who burned, detroyed and exterminated hundreds of gospels and true followers of jesus (pbuh) who did not conform to their twisted belief.

even today bible is still undergoing editing process, evidenced by thosands and thousands of different bibles.

apparently you prefer the words of men rather than words of god (swt).

What do you believe of what Jesus said in the Bible?

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

Originally Posted by Ramadhan
What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.

It doesn't say you should worship Adam in the Quran, but you implied it unequivocally in your question to me. You show by your question that you understood prostrate to mean worship. Here are your words in the question as referring to the word prostrate: "So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?" I have twisted nothing friend. You seem to be doing enough of it for the both of us. Does it not say in the Quran that Angels were also commanded by God to prostrate to Adam? It doesn't say that in the Bible! If it is not in the Quran then were did you get that from?

 

[Tyrion]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.

Faith should be based in some sort of reason... It seems to me that you're admitting to blindly believing in Christianity. If that's the case, then there's really no point in anyone pursuing discussion with you.

Peace

 

[Burninglight]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

Faith should be based in some sort of reason... It seems to me that you're admitting to blindly believing in Christianity. If that's the case, then there's really no point in anyone pursuing discussion with you.

Peace

Of course there is a reason, but we don't put our faith in human reason. We put it in God. It is not logical that God cannot keep His word preserved in heaven forever like he promised in the Bible. Man's power to corrupt is not greater than God's power to preserve His word. Based on this reason, I have put all my faith in the Scripture that came before. I have faith that God is able to keep His word by preserving it! And that word speaks of Jesus being God's son who died and rose for the salvation of my soul. I have faith in that. If you call that blind faith and no point to discuss with me, that is your choice.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: “Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.

All religions by their very nature are based on faith. I put my faith in One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and that He revealed the Quran and the Islamic way of life to Muhammad (saaws). I believe that I obey Allah (swt) when I follow a sunnah of Muhammad (saaws). I trust the Quran when it promise Gardens of Paradise to those who believe and do good deeds. You put your faith in an event that I believe never happened - a myth which is an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution - and in a doctrine that was not taught by Jesus (as).