The truth about the burka, women's rights other things

[LauraS]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

These women want to walk out on the street and not be looked at in horror because they aren't wearing a Burka. Why should women have to cover themsleves completely? Yes, they can dress modestly, I'm not someone who likes short skirts myself, but what is the justification for them not showing their faces? Didn't God create Adam and Eve without clothing? It was only when they ate the fruit that their "eyes were opened" and they became "ashamed" of their nakedness. So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended? Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible. Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men? People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school. The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on. Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind? I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan? I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities. Talking of Saudi Arabia brings me on to another point, a married British couple were recently arrested for kissing in public. How come Muslims complain if western socities object to the burka but western societies aren't allowed to behave how they normally would in eastern countries? How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms. I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others. How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

 

[aadil77]

I think islamically a woman may only show her hands and face.

So whatever else you see is just culture, whether its the western culture of forcing women to wear less clothes or its the afghan culture making women wear more

 

[جوري]

if a woman wants to wear a burka it is her right to do so, and you really have no say on what clothing articles others wear. If you want to know why some women choose the Burka you may approach one and ask her, instead of assuming for her that someone imposed such a choice on her.. Muslim women won't bite.. if you look in horror, or others look in horror at Muslim women sporting Burka, I'd think and rightfully so that you are the one with the problem not them. Those who choose burka in spite of family, friends, and people like you, do so because they choose God above all else and they should be applauded for their choice.. they prefer their dignity and anonymity in spite of folks haranguing them on board, on the media, on the streets!

you are not starting trouble.. I don't see why there is trouble to be stirred? I don't agree with nudists colonies or folks scantily clad, but there isn't much I can do about it.. I feel that they are degraded pieces of meats who only send a certain message out and set the bar so low. A woman completely covered up must want you to appreciate her for something other than her sexuality!

all the best


p.s Yes, ask your troops out of Afghanistan and maybe folks won't be bombed as often? food for thought and in general refrain from speaking on behalf of folks you have never met in a land you've never tread!

 

[aadil77]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

Already answered, people opinions here don't matter only what has been commanded by god. If people chose to wear who are you to say you disagree with it?

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

Don't even try to justify your wars which have caused massacres of muslims over a few womens rights, this is all force fed to you by the media to change public opinion of the wars - absolutely disgusting. The taliban are far from gone. They will fight till they turn afghanistan into a shariah state, not some democratic state with a puppet govt installed.

These women want to walk out on the street and not be looked at in horror because they aren't wearing a Burka. Why should women have to cover themsleves completely? Yes, they can dress modestly, I'm not someone who likes short skirts myself, but what is the justification for them not showing their faces?

Already answered

Didn't God create Adam and Eve without clothing? It was only when they ate the fruit that their "eyes were opened" and they became "ashamed" of their nakedness. So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended?

So you're sayin its ok to go out naked? You don't know what god intended so try not to make assumptions, right now His laws states that you must cover up and dress modestly

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible. Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men? People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school. The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on.

Did the documentaries show the abuses and torture of afghan civilians in bagram prison? I guess not, don't just fall for everything you see. Yes women do have the right to education, again its just culture, if the taliban were allowed to implement islam properly in afghanistan there would be none of these issues.

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind? I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan?

Lol we want your armies out of afghanistan more than anything, the people you here of on the news aren't taliban, they're just tribal leaders who don't do things according to islam.

I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities.

You can have all the freedoms you like in an islamic state as long as they're not freedoms to sin and commit immoral acts

Talking of Saudi Arabia brings me on to another point, a married British couple were recently arrested for kissing in public.

Yh unlike britain we don't allow immoral acts in public, if people wanna kiss they do what they want in their own privacy

How come Muslims complain if western socities object to the burka but western societies aren't allowed to behave how they normally would in eastern countries?

How can you complain about modesty and not complain about immodest acts

How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

Showing love? are you showing love to each other or the rest of the world, keep it in the bedroom. I suppose you'd like the right to fornicate in public as well?

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms. I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others. How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

Well we conqured and forced no one to become muslim, unlike you lot.

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

hope that answers your questions

 

[جوري]

was Islam won by the sword?

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?724

 

[Hidaaya]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

 

[CosmicPathos]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

It also is ok to wear a bikini. Islam does not say "bikini is haram." The word for bikini or something similar is not used in quran/sunnah. So people who say that bikini is haram, they say because of cultural reasons as bikini as a dress was not thought of in the Eastern countries.

 

[Hidaaya]

^ It is said because bikinis are immodest clothing.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

1. go and learn from reliable sources. media wanting ratings and money and who are bias towards their soldiers isn't included under the tile of "reliable."

2. get the facts straight and dont presume that becuase women cover, its because they are ashamed of what they look like. and

3. if you are going to complain about lack of woman's rights, im sure you will be more than willing to point out the lack of in the western world. it's onyl fair if you do.

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

well excellent, we love debate.



p.s is it just me, or is anyone else sick of repeating themselves? :'( hew these debates are getting horrendously stale and repetitive.

 

[Cabdullahi]

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five,

I evacuated the thread after seeing these bits......

 

[aadil77]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

sorry I didn't mean that, it is islamic to wear niqab and the lot, I just meant its not compulsary - I think

 

[gladTidings]

Welcome to the forum Laura =)

I hope I can give you some answers that will please God, God willing....

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom.

I watched the documentary too =)

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

I don't believe women who choose to wear the burka do so because they have a lack of confidence, but first and foremost because they believe it is a commandment of God.

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their....” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

I think the general consensus amongst scholars is that a woman should cover everything but may show her face and hands in public, some believe it is neccessary to cover the face, if there is no danger of harm to her. The wisdom and benefits of wearing 'hijab' for me personally are many, mostly it is a protection or a barrier between me and the evil that exists in the world. It is liberating from the standards of attractiveness and allows me to be recognised as an individual. I dont wear the burqa but I guess for some women the burqa does the same.

Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men?

There is nothing that prevents a women from seeking an education in Islam, I agree women should be educated, in fact it is compulsory for a believer to seek knowledge.

A beautiful saying of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him):

Related in al-Musnad and other sources, is the hadeeth of Aboo ad Dardaa’, may Allaah be pleased with him, in which he says, The Messenger of Allaah - sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam - said: "He who treads a path in search of knowledge Allaah will direct him to tread a path from the paths of Paradise. The Angels lower their wings for the student of knowledge in approval of what he does. All in the heavens and earth and the fish in the depth of the water seek forgiveness for the scholar, and the superiority of the scholar over the worshipper is like the superiority of the full moon at night over the rest of the stars. Verily the scholars are the heirs to the Prophets. Verily, the Prophets did not bequeath deenars or dirhams. All they left behind was knowledge, so whoever takes it, has indeed acquired a huge fortune." [Al-Musnad, 5/196. Also related by Aboo Daawood, 3/317; at-Tirmidhee 5/49; Ibn Maajah 1/81, ad-Daarimee, 1/98 and ibn Hibbaan, 1/152 (al-Ihsaan). It was declared saheeh by al-Albaanee; see Saheeh al-Jaami 5/302. Ibn Rajab has provided a commentary to this Hadeeth in a small work of his, so one should refer to it.]

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind?

What you saw in the documentary with regards to this woman was purely due to cultural practices and restrictions. There is nothing from Islam that supports this. It may be interesting for you to read the history of women in the time of the Prophets and the respect, power and dignity that Islam gifted to them.

How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

It goes against islamic etiquette to show public displays of affection since shyness is a branch of faith:

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Faith is like a tree with seventy branches, the loftiest of it is the testimony of Oneness of Allah, while the lowest of it is removing what is objectionable from the path of people, and shyness is a branch of faith.”

I don't think love has anything to do with publicly kissing your partner.


I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

=)

 

[M..x]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

Hello =) If you want my personal view, I think its obligatory to cover the face and the body & I feel that the niqaab (full veil) is not compulsory. However, I don't feel the ban is acceptable either. There was a ridiculous article in my local newspaper that wearing a veil (that does NOT cover the eyes) distorts one's vission. Its kind of laughable that they come up with such pathetic theories, how on Earth does it affect one's vision if it doesnt cover the eyes?! In the context of a multi cultrual society (UK), Everyone should be entitled to wear as they please, its their body, their freedom, their clothing. But I guess freedom to practice religion/expression and so forth that they bang on about are such fundemendal rights to every individual clearly don't apply to Muslims. Such double standards and hipocracy!

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

I think the males and females in the country want help.. But not for them reasons. The only freedom they need is from the opressors who have taken over their lands. How can they go into a totally different country and try to implement their own laws and what THEY think is right? Can they ever accept Shariah law to be implemented into a Western country? And say if anyone came and dictated this country like they do Afghanistan or Iraq? How much could we tolerate?
How can they try to merge 2 different systems which are just incompatiable with each other?
Note: I am not someone who goes protesting on the street for Shariah to be implemented into the country. Its just an example to illustrate my point. Its a two way thing and just shows the West's double standards. I was born and raised in the UK and I appreciate everything it has provided for me =)

Why should women have to cover themsleves completely?

It comes down to modesty and only preserving their beauty for their husbands.
Also let me correct you, I'm not ignorant to say that EVERY Muslimah in the world wants to be covered and such situations that you describe do exist where she may be forced. But its a minority let me assure you. I'm not just saying this because I am Muslim myself, but I have NEVER come accross someone who has been forced to cover. Its almost becoming a myth. And its true to say that there was a time where women were opressed and maybe have been forced. But for goodness sakes its 2010 and we don't live in the Middle Ages no more. Even in the poorest countries, theirs so much awareness of Muslim Women Rights etc, so do you really think that this happens every where? The media distort everything. Its their nature.

So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended?

As there is a lenghty debate about this issue, its useful searching for links about this on the site in order to find out whether its fardh (obligatory) or not.

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

You will find the most beuatiful of women wearing the niqaas therefore I very much doubt this.

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible.

Agreed, but I would assume anyone's rights in Afghanistan or Iraq etc are terrible. They have people who have invaded their country for pity's sake!

Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men?

Islam condems this. This is not Islam. Don't believe everything you have heard.

People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school.

Disgusting.

The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on.

Horrible, again Islam prohibits forced marriages. & Its amazing how they try to pull that off (I would assume) as Islamic practices? Disgraceful.

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind?

She shouldn't.

I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan?

Yes, and I would also be veyr happy to see my brothers and sisters not getting tortured by those disgusting vile humans that have invaded their country also.

I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities.

Its sad really the Arab country's are so corrupt its unbeleiveable. My visit to Pakistan (also another supposed Shariah goverened country) showed me exactly that. There is more ignorance there than here (UK) and it just shows alot. Obviously they lost a lot of knowledge along tha way. And every principle of Islam is just unbelievably amazing. Obviously I would say that. But take for example, the punishment of theft. You'll get the ignorant minded saying, which country would just chop of your hands like that? But there are SO many conditions and circumstances that the court would take into consideration e.g. the presence of witnesses and it acts as a method of deterance. If someone knew that they'd have their hands chopped of for committing theft, would they be more obliged to do it? Not much eh?

To be honest, its not pleasant to be seeing a couple getting off inapropriate. The phrase 'get a room' springs to mind. There's a time and place for everything. Holding hands is one thing, and having a full on session is another.

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms.

The history of Islam is vital here and how it spread & how it continues to spread. It is recognised as the world's fastest growing religion and obviously there is a reaosn for that. I'm sure that nowaday converts/reverts have not had Islam imposed on them, but have come to Islam in their own way. And its beautful seeing that.

I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others.

I beleive not. Even at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), out of fear of the spread of Islam, the Makkan's were so hostile towards the followers of Muhammad & I guess as they realised the logical and spiritual truth that Islam bought, they were bought to a sense of realisation. It'd benefit you to read a book of Seerah if your interested God-Willing.. =)

How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

Well I'm sorry, but if you are going to tell the whole world how your such a multi-cultural society, accept that you'll get a lot of people migrating from multi-cultural societies.. Although there must be SOME control on mass-immigration!

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

Appreciated and likewise =) Best of Luck.

 

[ardianto]

It also is ok to wear a bikini. Islam does not say "bikini is haram." The word for bikini or something similar is not used in quran/sunnah. So people who say that bikini is haram, they say because of cultural reasons as bikini as a dress was not thought of in the Eastern countries.

Bikini is not haram, but showing the body to non-mahram is haram.
So, it's ok if a Muslimah wear bikini as long as only in the front of her husband.

 

[LauraS]

Thanks for the replies all there was a lot there so I've answered the main points made by everybody lol.

I never said women shouldn’t be allowed to wear burkas, just that I disagree with it, I certainly don’t “look in horror” on those that do. I know there are many Muslim women who wear burkas through pure faith and not force. However in places where there are stricter regimes like Afghanistan women feel safer wearing burkas, not so much because of their religion, but because they don’t have to endure the disapproving looks of men. Isn’t there a difference between dressing modestly and only showing your eyes? Of I wouldn’t go out naked, my point is originally God created people naked, He didn’t make people with ready made clothes.

As for the war in Afghanistan, I have very mixed feelings about it, I have read about things that have gone on, I don’t just think the west are the “goodies”. It must be remembered that the reason for the war was September 11th, don’t get me wrong I know America is not the shining beacon of freedom and brilliance it pretends to be, but after the atrocity, were they really going to sit back and do nothing? I don’t think so. What about the rights of the people in the twin towers and in those airplanes? War was obviously going to be the result of what the taliban did, they are too dangerous to stay in power. Much as you might not like to think it there are Muslims are who agree with both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq because of the countries’ regimes. The taliban had a chance to implement Islam “properly” didn’t they? However they were dictators, self-important men who wanted to keep women down. They don’t appear to have been good Islamic leaders at all, you said yourself they don’t do things according to Islam, doesn’t it benefit the country for them to be gone then? The people on that documentary weren’t paid to say what they did, it showed genuine people with real life stories who do want help and more freedom. Why would there be organisations set up for Afghani women for greater rights if they didn’t? I’m not pretending I’m speaking for a country I don’t know, the people are speaking for theirselves.

I still don’t see how kissing in public can be considered immoral, who is anybody to say a married couple can only kiss in their home? There’s a huge difference between kissing and having sex in public aadil77.

I refuse to believe the Muslims of the past were any different to anyone else when it came to expansion, conquering land will have meant battle which would have meant death. Was it purely to spread Islam that this death took place? It would also have been out of interests to gain greater power with religion as a mask, just like the Christian crusades. Whatever the reason the Islamic armies didn’t just arrive peacefully. I don’t think the Greeks were too happy when they were part of the Ottoman Empire.

Thank you for those quotes Pearl, they were interesting J

 

[Predator]

I never said women shouldn’t be allowed to wear burkas, just that I disagree with it, I certainly don’t “look in horror” on those that do. I know there are many Muslim women who wear burkas through pure faith and not force. However in places where there are stricter regimes like Afghanistan women feel safer wearing burkas, not so much because of their religion, but because they don’t have to endure the disapproving looks of men. Isn’t there a difference between dressing modestly and only showing your eyes? Of I wouldn’t go out naked, my point is originally God created people naked, He didn’t make people with ready made clothes.

As for the burqa thing , I suggest you stop feeling sorry for them and thinking they are deprived unless you plan to take all the nuns out on the street and strip them naked and have them start fornicating for the pleasure of life and living free. What a person wears is their personal choice and if they are doing it out of their faith and commitment to their Lord then it would be hypocritical of you to see them as deprived while viewing your christian nuns as "devoted".



Islam is the fastest growing religion and tomorrow it may be the dominate religion in your country . All this means for you is less drinking buddies and girls for fornication, less crime, teen pregnancies, gangs and a better society over all. No, Muslims are going to come over and take over, when your own people find the truth in Islam and adopt it as their way of life then your "culture" will change on its own as the society's norms and values change over time. Back in the 30s/40s young college age girls used to do social dating as way of finding a mate, today we see 11yr olds spreading their legs for you. Is this the culture you value? Don't hold onto your culture so blindly, change can be for good or bad and so far it is has been bad, maybe it'll be good once more of your folks find islam as their way of life and adopt new values and norms, freeing your society of the ills prevalent today in the name of "liberalism".

 

[Somaiyah]

Peace be with you,

You shouldn't compare Islam to a society where they make up own rules and reduce women's AND men's freedom. Islam has rules, but not all islamic societies follow them in the right way.

As for me I don't have niqab (don't use the word burqa) but I want to. Where is our freedom to have the choice to wear niqab in the West? Yes, women who are forced to have niqab are oppressed - but we who are forced to not have niqab are also oppressed. It has to be the own choice.

Covering up is obligatory, but how to cover is different opinions in. I believe that niqab is good but not obligatory, because I haven't done enough research in this yet. But covering up isn't bad. I have never understood why people believe freedom is to be naked rather then show that your body is YOUR body and nobody else except the ones you want to can see it. Allah almighty put up these rules for us to be protected, the woman is protected when she dresses well. The more dressed the more protected. It's not about oppression, men should also cover but men are stronger than women normally, it's about protection and obeying.

 

[Yusuf Saeed]

As for the war in Afghanistan, I have very mixed feelings about it, I have read about things that have gone on, I don’t just think the west are the “goodies”. It must be remembered that the reason for the war was September 11th, don’t get me wrong I know America is not the shining beacon of freedom and brilliance it pretends to be, but after the atrocity, were they really going to sit back and do nothing? I don’t think so. What about the rights of the people in the twin towers and in those airplanes?

Welcome to the forum, Laura.

In nowadays world many people have misunderstood the cause and effect. The cause of the war in Afghanistan was not the attacks of the 11th September, rather it was a direct consequence of the Western occupation of the Middle-East just like the 9/11 itself was a result of the occupation of Muslim lands. Islam had coexisted peacefully with America for more than 140 years before Americans supported the creation of Israeli state and its army. It's after the support of Israel and its atrocities against Muslims and the further occupation of the Middle-East by the Americans when the "islamic terrorism" set in.

And even if some think 9/11 started the war in Afganistan was the American response in any way justified or civilized? It wasn't even until the end of 2001 when more civilians were killed in the bombings of Afghanistan than died in 9/11. U.S. bombs have killed more than 3,500 Afghan civilians, according to a study, released Dec. 10, by Marc W. Herold, professor of economics, international relations and women's studies at the University of New Hampshire.

Chris Hedges, an American journalist, author, and war correspondent (also he was part of the team of reporters at The New York Times awarded the Pulitzer Prize for the paper's coverage of global terrorism) has explained the matter really well:

"Muslim rage is stoked because we station tens of thousands of American troops on Muslim soil, occupy two Muslim nations, make possible the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, support repressive Arab regimes and torture thousands of Muslims in offshore penal colonies where prisoners are stripped of their rights. We now have 22 times as many military personnel in the Muslim world as were deployed during the crusades in the 12th century. The rage comes because we have constructed massive military bases, some the size of small cities, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait, and established basing rights in the Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. The rage comes because we have expanded our military empire into neighboring Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. It comes because we station troops and special forces in Egypt, Algeria and Yemen. And this vast network of bases and military outposts looks suspiciously permanent.

The Muslim world fears, correctly, that we intend to dominate Middle East oil supplies and any Caspian Sea oil infrastructure. And it is interested not in our protestations of good will but in the elemental right of justice and freedom from foreign occupation. We would react, should the situation be reversed, no differently.

The brutal reality of expanding foreign occupation and harsher and harsher forms of control are the tinder of Islamic fundamentalism, insurgences and terrorism. We can blame the violence on a clash of civilizations. We can naively tell ourselves we are envied for our freedoms. We can point to the Koran. But these are fantasies that divert us from facing the central dispute between us and the Muslim world, from facing our own responsibility for the virus of chaos and violence spreading throughout the Middle East. We can have peace when we shut down our bases, stay the hand of the Israelis to create a Palestinian state, and go home, or we can have long, costly and ultimately futile regional war. We cannot have both."

I refuse to believe the Muslims of the past were any different to anyone else when it came to expansion, conquering land will have meant battle which would have meant death. Was it purely to spread Islam that this death took place? It would also have been out of interests to gain greater power with religion as a mask, just like the Christian crusades. Whatever the reason the Islamic armies didn’t just arrive peacefully.

As for the extreme violence supposed to have been a part of the spread of Islam, even a Western historian Barbara Rosenwein (got a Ph.D from University of Chicago) has admitted that "for example Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria, were dissatisfied [with the local rule] and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces".

Also, several Western historians see the Medieval Muslim leaders such as Saladin extremely tolerant towards their enemy. A good example of this is that despite the crusaders' slaughter when they originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, Saladin granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army. Saladin summoned the Jews and permitted them to resettle in the city. Even in Europe Saladin became known for his good manners and chivarly.

The following text about the capturing of Jerusalem, written by Paul E. Walker, a historian with his focus on Medieval Islamic History, shows how wrong it is to think that Muslim leaders were brutal in their conquests just like the crusaders were: "In stark contrast to the city's conquest by the Christians, when blood flowed freely during the barbaric slaughter of its inhabitants, the Muslim reconquest was marked by the civilized and courteous behaviour of Saladin and his troops."

 

[Salahudeen]

The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman. This is in addition to the shar’i evidence which states that it is obligatory to cover the face.

For example, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)…”

[al-Noor 24:31]

Drawing the veil all over the juyoob implies covering the face.

When Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) was asked about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59] –

he covered his face, leaving only one eye showing. This indicates that what was meant by the aayah was covering the face. This was the interpretation of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) of this aayah, as narrated from him by ‘Ubaydah al-Salmaani when he asked him about it.

In the Sunnah there are many ahaadeeth, such as: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The woman in ihraam is forbidden to veil her face (wear niqaab) or to wear the burqa’.” This indicates that when women were not in ihraam, women used to cover their faces.

This does not mean that if a woman takes off her niqaab or burqa’ in the state of ihraam that she should leave her face uncovered in the presence of non-mahram men. Rather she is obliged to cover it with something other than the niqaab or burqa’, on the evidence of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “We were with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in ihraam, and when men passed by us, we would lower the khimaar on our heads over our faces, and when they moved on we would lift it again.”

Women in ihraam and otherwise are obliged to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, because the face is the center of beauty and it is the place that men look at… and Allaah knows best.

Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 1/396, 397

He also said:

It is OK to cover the face with the niqaab or burqa’ which has two openings for the eyes only, because this was known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and because of necessity. If nothing but the eyes show, this is fine, especially if this is customarily worn by women in her society.

Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 1/399

And Allaah knows best.



Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid



http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21134/niqaab

 

[LauraS]

squiggle thanks for that it was interesting!

Yusuf Saeed- I don't think any act can justify the killing of innocent people, just like America's intereference in the Middle East didn't justify September 11th. It does upset me when I see the clips a bombs and missiles and think of the families that many are falling on. As I said the war in Afghanistan and maybe even Iraq (I'm certainly dubious about that one!) is difficult for me, because I know there are things probably going on behind the scenes that the media doesn't tell us about I've been reading about them myself. However, like the media in the west, how much of that is propoganda from the east? I do think it's right to remove the taliban from power and I know that there are Muslims enjoying greater freedoms in Iraq and Afghanistan now and, particualrly in Afghanistan like with the women's organisations fighting for even more. I'm not talking about the taliban as Muslims but just as a group that have twisted Islam.

This brings me on to the other point you made about Jews and Christians prefering Islamic rule, well can't the same be said of those in Afghanistan who now have greater freedoms then? I'm quite sure not everyone under Islamic rule would have been impressed just like not everybody in Afghanistan is.

I've often though Saladin sounds like a good bloke lol, however it must be remembered that those leaving Jerusalem where only allowed to if they paid a tax and if they didn't they were sold into slavery. Surely this isn't allowed in Isalm. Also, once again, to conquer the Arabian Pennisular would have had to use force. They didn't give people a chance to accept them into scoiety, they forced themselves into it. In this way Islam is the same as other religions.

Don 't get me wrong, I have no bias, I've read things about the past of Christianity that has made me virtually hate the Church. All religions have done terrible things in the past in the name of "peace" and how they think their Gods will accept this I have no idea and if there is a God I hope they get what they deserve eg with the burning of the Cathars. Hopefully in this new age of more enlightened minds accepting that there are different people around them we can learn to live more peacefully with each other (well that's debatable I suppose) and realise that murdering people because they worship in a slightly different way is in no way acceptable. If whatever God out there does actually condone this, then what does that say about the God we all worship really?