There's Ummahs and Ummahs

[RonPrice]

MODEL

In the Baha’i writings we find a total vision of the human person and society. It is a vision whose psychology and cosmogony is broadly framed in Aristotelian terms. The image of the prophet, manifestation of God, or theophany, a term absolutely central to the Baha’i understanding of the mosaic of humankind’s religious experience, bears a likeness in several respects to the philosopher-king of Plato.

What Plato did for the city-state, Hobbes did for the modern nation state: gave it an ideal expression that made it triumphant over all competing types of social structure. Plato and Aristotle, I would argue, were the essential architects of the vision of community as it emerged from Greece. The Hebraic theocratic state was another model that had emerged by the fifth century BC. A concept of a community of belief, the Islamic Ummah, a community governed by a divine plan as revealed by God’s Messenger was yet another model, a thousand years later This later model is given greater specificity and reinforcement in the Baha’i concept of the Covenant, the continuation of divine guidance after the Ascension of the Prophet through a person or institution. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Three Epochs, Unpublished Manuscript, 1999.

Some say that, in Western history,
St. Augustine was the first philosopher
to see mankind as a single unified entity.
Thus began the ecumenical idea.
We find, too, in his Confessions
a troubled, agitated mind,
driven by internal and external forces,
and finding repose in a feeling of community.

We find, too, in Price’s autobiography,
Pioneering OverThree Epochs,
his understanding of the total vision
of the human person and society
within a new mode of community.
We find Price’s agitation, his trouble,
his sense of the sublime and
the oneness of past, present and future
that St. Augustine found in the system
that grew out of the message of a Prophet of God.


Ron Price
31 October 1999

 

[Dawud_uk]

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

and i think you have shown us exactly why it is dangerous for muslims to take from man made philosophy not God made Shariah.

peace,

Daw'ud

MODEL

In the Baha’i writings we find a total vision of the human person and society. It is a vision whose psychology and cosmogony is broadly framed in Aristotelian terms. The image of the prophet, manifestation of God, or theophany, a term absolutely central to the Baha’i understanding of the mosaic of humankind’s religious experience, bears a likeness in several respects to the philosopher-king of Plato.

What Plato did for the city-state, Hobbes did for the modern nation state: gave it an ideal expression that made it triumphant over all competing types of social structure. Plato and Aristotle, I would argue, were the essential architects of the vision of community as it emerged from Greece. The Hebraic theocratic state was another model that had emerged by the fifth century BC. A concept of a community of belief, the Islamic Ummah, a community governed by a divine plan as revealed by God’s Messenger was yet another model, a thousand years later This later model is given greater specificity and reinforcement in the Baha’i concept of the Covenant, the continuation of divine guidance after the Ascension of the Prophet through a person or institution. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Three Epochs, Unpublished Manuscript, 1999.

Some say that, in Western history,
St. Augustine was the first philosopher
to see mankind as a single unified entity.
Thus began the ecumenical idea.
We find, too, in his Confessions
a troubled, agitated mind,
driven by internal and external forces,
and finding repose in a feeling of community.

We find, too, in Price’s autobiography,
Pioneering OverThree Epochs,
his understanding of the total vision
of the human person and society
within a new mode of community.
We find Price’s agitation, his trouble,
his sense of the sublime and
the oneness of past, present and future
that St. Augustine found in the system
that grew out of the message of a Prophet of God.


Ron Price
31 October 1999

 

[RonPrice]

Thank you Dawud_uk for your prompt response. For many a year I have been of the opinion that Muhammed provided the fullest expression/basis of a political community, certainly fuller than the other Abrahamic-religions. People like Plato and Hobbes, among a host of others, have tried to provide the basis of a political community in the West and they succeeded, but only in part. Time will tell, of course, what the basis of political community will be in the centuries which follow in the West and, of course, in our emerging global society.-Ron Price, Tasmania

 

[north_malaysian]

What is Prophet Muhammad status in Baha'i Faith?

 

[RonPrice]

How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."

- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162
________________________________
Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'

- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

'The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.' - Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.
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On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'- Lights of Guidance, #1903.
_______________
The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.

As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.
_______________________
That's enough for now!-Ron

 

[Dawud_uk]

Thank you Dawud_uk for your prompt response. For many a year I have been of the opinion that Muhammed provided the fullest expression/basis of a political community, certainly fuller than the other Abrahamic-religions. People like Plato and Hobbes, among a host of others, have tried to provide the basis of a political community in the West and they succeeded, but only in part. Time will tell, of course, what the basis of political community will be in the centuries which follow in the West and, of course, in our emerging global society.-Ron Price, Tasmania

hi ronprice,

it is not that Muhammad (saws) provded the 'fullest expression' and that others can complete this through man made logic but that the message of islam is the only valid political deen out there that is acceptable to Allah (swt).

the kilaphate is the only fully valid way the muslim ummah can be governed as it is based upon the supreme message of islam, the word of Allah in the Quran and the understanding of that from Muhammad (saws).

why should someone substitute this divine system given by Allah for man made rules and ideas good as they may seem?

peace,

Daw'ud

 

[RonPrice]

From a Baha'i perspective it will, in time, be possible for the Muslim ummah to accept Baha'u'llah. You might find the following interesting in this connection:

There are several reasons why Muslims are destined to recognize the Returned Christ:
_____________________
A- The first and the foremost reason would be the suffering and the affliction of humanity in general and the Muslim community in particular in accordance with the Text of the Qur'an: "....va maa kunnaa mu'azzebin hattaa nab'ath rasoolan" Qur'an 17:15. This translates to: "We never afflict [i.e. a nation or a people. KH] with suffering/torment /punishment BEFORE sending a Messenger."

That is to say the Messenger must come first and then the suffering and afflictions will start. Muslim affliction started in 1260 A.H. after The Bab proclaimed His Mission, and this suffering is going to continue until it reaches it's apex until such a realization is born in every Muslim heart. The realization of this suffering will serve as a sign and a proof that Promised Christ of Islam has already returned.

Baha'u'llah reveals the following in regards to this final calamity:

"O YE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! Know, verily, that an unforeseen calamity followeth you, and grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not that which ye have committed hath been effaced in My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."-Baha'u'llah, The Hidden Words, Persian #63

Also: "The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody." -Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 118-119

This calamity is in essence a SIGN from God which will inspire fear in hearts of the believers and serve as a catalyst in this process of transformation. The Holy Qur'an testifies to this issue:

"We refrain from sending signs only because the former generations treated them as false.... And We do not send the sign, except to inspire fear."-Qur'an 17:59

As the Arab idolaters had no option but to accept Muhammad, Muslims will have no option but to accept Baha'u'llah as the Promised Maseeh. This is the first point of similarity between Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.
____________________
B- The religious leaders are fast loosing ground and their followers are beginning to learn about the Baha'i Faith and its claims as well as basic elements of the Babi theology. Such was not possible during the lifetime of The Bab. Lack of education on a universal scale made it impossible for the average Muslim to self-investigate the claim of The Bab and decide for oneself. As a result Mahdi's claim was rejected by the population because of the directives of their religious leaders.

Science has become the nightmare of the religious leadership and education has opened the door to the questioning of traditional assumptions. Believers are starting to question the appearance of a Promised One on the clouds, falling of the stars, darkening/eclipse of the sun and the moon, raising of the dead, heaven and hell as actual locations etc... The absurdities instilled in the mind of the believers about the implications of these signs have been refuted by The Bab and Baha'u'llah in the most clear terms.

Baha'u'llah refuted the literalist understanding of these signs which the Gospels present as follows: 'Immediately after the oppression of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.' -Matthew 24:29-31

Similar prophecies such as the eclipse of the sun and moon and the descent of angels rank upon rank have also been foretold in the Qur'an which, for the sake of brevity, will not be cited here.
_______________________
That's enough for now.-Ron:?

 

[NahidSarvy]

it is not that Muhammad (saws) provded the 'fullest expression' and that others can complete this through man made logic but that the message of islam is the only valid political deen out there that is acceptable to Allah (swt).

the kilaphate is the only fully valid way the muslim ummah can be governed as it is based upon the supreme message of islam, the word of Allah in the Quran and the understanding of that from Muhammad (saws).

Peace, Da'ud!

Not all Muslims look to a restored Khilâfa ("Successorship") as the only acceptable political governance of Muslims, at least not in the sense that I assume you mean.

Since the death of the Prophet, the division in the Umma in three major ways - those who supported the Four Caliphs (Sunnî), those who supported governance by the Caliph-Imâm of the People of the House (Shî3a) and those who expect an election of the best candidate for the job of Caliph-Imâm (Ibâdî [Khawârij]) has meant that even inside the Umma itself, there is no agreement about right rulership.

Not only that, but for about 1400 years, Muslims have lived in a wide variety of situations, from areas with no real governance (e.g. Albania) to those with established governances claiming Muslim affinity to those with Christian, Hindu or secular democratic governance.

The Caliphate is dead. If the Umma couldn't agree on it from day one, how can we expect it to be reborn now? Who would rule?

 

[Dawud_uk]

<<There are several reasons why Muslims are destined to recognize the Returned Christ:
_____________________
A- The first and the foremost reason would be the suffering and the affliction of humanity in general and the Muslim community in particular in accordance with the Text of the Qur'an: "....va maa kunnaa mu'azzebin hattaa nab'ath rasoolan" Qur'an 17:15. This translates to: "We never afflict [i.e. a nation or a people. KH] with suffering/torment /punishment BEFORE sending a Messenger." >>

peace,

assuming you are using your religions own version of the Quran there,

the following is the more usual translation,

<<017.015
YUSUFALI: Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
PICKTHAL: Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load, We never punish until we have sent a messenger.
SHAKIR: Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger. >>

as you see, if you read through it then it merely means that people are not punished without a messenger being sent first.

Muhammad (saws) is the final prophet and messenger, there is none to come after him so your messenger is i am affraid a false prophet as we were warned of by the prophet Muhummad (saws).

as for who is the messenger who warns the people then if muslims are being afflicted with a pain and torment? it is none other than the last Rasoolullah - Muhammad (saws) who warned us enough times of what we must do if we are to avoid Allah's wrath in this world and the next.

peace,

Daw'ud

 

[Dawud_uk]

Peace, Da'ud!

Not all Muslims look to a restored Khilâfa ("Successorship") as the only acceptable political governance of Muslims, at least not in the sense that I assume you mean.

Since the death of the Prophet, the division in the Umma in three major ways - those who supported the Four Caliphs (Sunnî), those who supported governance by the Caliph-Imâm of the People of the House (Shî3a) and those who expect an election of the best candidate for the job of Caliph-Imâm (Ibâdî [Khawârij]) has meant that even inside the Umma itself, there is no agreement about right rulership.

Not only that, but for about 1400 years, Muslims have lived in a wide variety of situations, from areas with no real governance (e.g. Albania) to those with established governances claiming Muslim affinity to those with Christian, Hindu or secular democratic governance.

The Caliphate is dead. If the Umma couldn't agree on it from day one, how can we expect it to be reborn now? Who would rule?

assalaamu alaykum,

all three agree on the need for a kilafate, they only disagree on the means. if you speak to the zaidi shi'a they acknowledge the need for kilafate and would obey it, do not assume the extreme rafadiyyah of iran speak for the shi'a, they just shout the loudest which is not the same thing!

once again when you come to the khwarijites, they are a messy mixed up lot and yet the less extreme of that sect will still obey the kalif if he is righteous.

the kilafate was destroyed, i can agree with that, but did you know it was once destroyed before and how was it restored? not through the ballot box or diolog but by people going in the path of Allah and restoring it that is how it will be reborn.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud

 

[scentsofjannah]

The Khilafate was based on shura(consultation) and bai'ah..(pledge) even the early shias believed in this...and only the best person who rules his self by the Qur'an and follows the example of Our Beloved Prophet (saw) should govern muslims.

 

[Dawud_uk]

The Khilafate was based on shura(consultation) and bai'ah..(pledge) even the early shias believed in this...and only the best person who rules his self by the Qur'an and follows the example of Our Beloved Prophet (saw) should govern muslims.

exactly!

if you speak to a wider selection of the shi'a then the self-flagelling rafidiyyah then you get an idea that the gulf is not so wide and this is why shi'a and sunni were able to cooperate better in the past than they have recently.

some ziadiyyah do not even think of themselves as shi'a, only part of the mainstream jammat but who happen to think it might have been a better idea to have Ali rather than Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with them both) as first kalif but they still accept the sunni kilafate and distance themselves from those who slander the sahabah or say other crazy stuff, much of which falls into kufr.

i have spoken to ziadiyyah on forums and they seem closer to the Quran and sunnah than many people who claim to be sunni but do not follow the Quran and sunnah.

wa alaykumus salaam,
Daw'ud

 

[scentsofjannah]

exactly!

if you speak to a wider selection of the shi'a then the self-flagelling rafidiyyah then you get an idea that the gulf is not so wide and this is why shi'a and sunni were able to cooperate better in the past than they have recently.

some ziadiyyah do not even think of themselves as shi'a, only part of the mainstream jammat but who happen to think it might have been a better idea to have Ali rather than Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with them both) as first kalif but they still accept the sunni kilafate and distance themselves from those who slander the sahabah or say other crazy stuff, much of which falls into kufr.

i have spoken to ziadiyyah on forums and they seem closer to the Quran and sunnah than many people who claim to be sunni but do not follow the Quran and sunnah.

wa alaykumus salaam,
Daw'ud

There was a Zaydi empire in yemen and many Imams who were decended from Imam Zaid ra led the people there may Allah swt be pleased with them all. For more on early shias and their development from shura to divine immamate go here Ahmad AlKatib very interesting book! by an author from a twelver Immate background mashaAllah it taught me a lot about shiite history

btw brother nice to see you here you also left sunniforum with wifey? comeon it isnt that bad..i like it hehe anyways send wifey my salaam and i hope the baby doesnt give her too much trouble heh

 

[RonPrice]

You all raise some interesting questions. Let me respond with the following on the notion "Seal of the Prophets."
________________________________
Seal of the Prophets
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets.
- Qur'an 33:40


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer (on Interpretation): Beseech God, and let your prayerful attitude and a clean heart guide you to see the meanings in God's words.

The word "Seal" (kha'tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been interpreted to mean the: "Last", "Final", "Ornament" (something to adorn with), "Ring", "Seal" (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), "Seal" (as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and other meanings along similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings are valid and true.
_________________________
Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other.

Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer revelations:
_____________________________
Going back to the meaning of the "Seal of the Prophets", this verse, and other verses about the completion of religion in Islam, have been interpreted by the majority of Muslims as indication of the finality, not only of Prophethood, but of all revelation. Other opinions and interpretations, including some by Muslim scholars, have argued that since there are many other verses in the Qur'an which explain the endless nature of the Words of God, in addition to other verses and Hadiths (traditions and sayings of the Prophet), which talk about the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mahdi, these opinions, have argued that there may be other interpretations for these verses. Some of these interpretations are mentioned here:
__________________________
Difference in Station between a Messenger (Rasool), and Prophet (Nabi)
Opinions have differed on whether the word "Rasool" (Messenger /Apostle), and the word "Nabi" (Prophet), are interchangeable. Notwithstanding the fact that Muhammad (PBUH) was both a Prophet and a Messenger, there obviously are differences, at least in definition, between the two words. Some people argue that the term "Seal of the Prophets" does not apply to Messengers, while others have argued that all Prophets by definition, are Messengers as well, which would mean that by sealing prophethood, messengership is also sealed.

Definitions and Clues:

One definition of "Messenger" given, is that a Messenger brings a revelation, a religion. The following verse from the Qur'an is repeated three times, always with the word "Rasool":

"He it is Who sends the Messenger for guidance, with the true religion." - Qur’an 9:33 , 48:28, and 61:9


Only a few Individuals mentioned in the Qur'an are called Messengers. In chapter 61 of the Qur'an (Al-Saf) , in verses 4,5, and 8, the word "Rasool" is used for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBU Them). All Three were law bearing Messengers with Books and Revelation (Deen).

In the Holy Qur'an, we find many more names of prophets mentioned than of Messengers. Some of these names are, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael, Idris, David, Solomon and many many others (PBU Them all). They were all prophets, and non of Them came with a new religion. It is also interesting to read in the following verse that those who obey the Messenger, will be in the company of the prophets and the saints (who also obey the Messenger) :

All who obey God and the Messenger are in the company of those on whom is the grace of God, of the Prophets, the sincere, the martyrs (or witnesses) and the righteous " - Qur'an 4:69
__________________
Enough for now. Yes, peace to us all, deep peace.-Ron