Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Malaikah]

In addition to what they have said, the hadith you cite does not actually give the reason the mountain fell on them.

It is very clear that the reason they were destroyed is because they were major sinners.

Was it just circumstances and they missed out on an important opportunity to do good? Perhaps that is the intended lesson? Or, perhaps they were punished for their laziness and lack of compassion for not putting this poor people off till another day while tending to their own needs? Perhaps the intended lesson is don't put off the good you can do today or don't neglect another's needs because you are so busy looking after your own?

With out doubt is a combination of all these things, most specifically, the allowance fornication/adultery and wine- which are major sins in Islam. (Major sins means that Allah has mentioned a punishment for them, wether in this life or the next).

I notice that not all of the things mentioned that these people were engaged in are considered haraam in Islam -- having flocks of sheep is not haraam. Staying at the side of a mountain is not considered haraam.

True, it might have been there just to add context or something. The mountain side is obviously mentioned because that is what destroyed them. As for the sheep, who knows? It might be to show wealth or something? I'm not so sure what sheep meant to the Arabs, but I know it meant a lot.

I know that fornication and adultery are considered haraam from other sources. But why link musical instruments to fornication? Why not link it to having sheep?

I believe the whole point was that linking the allowance of music to the other major sins shows how serious of a sin it was that they allowed music.

Maliakah, I am not actually attempting to argue with you. I'm just trying to look at this from all sides.

I'm not sure why you mentioned this- I didn't see anything pertaining to agreement in your post!:?

 

[Grace Seeker]

from syilla
i think we are missing out the point that music/singing without the instruments (background music) is not haram.

I really appreciate this point. So it is not music that is haraam, it is instrumentation that is haraam. There is a significant difference.

It is very clear that the reason they were destroyed is because they were major sinners.

I get that is the best understanding for why the story would be told, but I don't see that it must follow that the musical instruments are to be equated with the sinning. As I said, if they are, then why not the act of keeping flocks of sheep too? Can it not be that the musical instruments and the silk are included just as the sheep are, as you said, simply to add context, a fleshing out of the story. I don't see the proof in the hadith that the musical instruments are THE source of sin, only that the people were sinners.

You also asked where I got my source on the hadith: "Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari that he heard the Prophet saying" the hadith you provided. The other commentary I quoted can be found here: ISSUE OF SINGING AND MUSIC IN ISLAM . Included in it are some of the other issues you addressed about the conclusion of scholars. According to this website, "There were many scholars in the past that said that music was permissible: Shawkawni, Ibn Hazm, Ghazalli, Abú Bakr al-'Arabi, Qaradawi, and others."

Oh, and I might add, my life is so much more beneficial with out music, alhamdulilah. It was only when I got away from it that I realise who twisted it really was.

Well, whether the hadith is the reason or not, it sounds like the getting away from music has been a good thing for you. I won't argue with that. If it has been good for you, then it has been good for you and I am glad that it has been.

Oh, and another thing, perhaps the reason you find music so important is because your bible isn't read in the way the Quran is? We have the Quran to listen to when we feel down, and it's effect is much purer than anything music can give. As Muslims, I guess we have something better to replace the music with.

Perhaps. You may have a very good point there.

I like to sing scripture. Apart from the fact that I mean Christian scriptures, not the Quran, does that fit within or outside the context of the principles of Islam with regard to listening to or reciting the scriptures?

I'm not sure why you mentioned this- I didn't see anything pertaining to agreement in your post!:?

Don't mistake disagreement for being argumentative. For me, learning is often accomplished by challenging ideas, questioning things. Been this way for 50 years, but it isn't an attack. It is just a part of my personality inherited from my grandfather.

 

[Malaikah]

I get that is the best understanding for why the story would be told, but I don't see that it must follow that the musical instruments are to be equated with the sinning. As I said, if they are, then why not the act of keeping flocks of sheep too? Can it not be that the musical instruments and the silk are included just as the sheep are, as you said, simply to add context, a fleshing out of the story. I don't see the proof in the hadith that the musical instruments are THE source of sin, only that the people were sinners.

It comes from the fact that the music is included in the sentence referring to things that were made lawful by these people. If music was already lawful, then why was it included as something that the people made lawful? Surely the only logical conclusion here is that the music was unlawful, and they made it lawful?

The sheep were not included in the sentence that is talking about the things that these people made permissible, whereas the music was.

The sheep could serve many uses, for example, to show the wealth of the people, who still denied the poor person. Or something like that.

According to this website, "There were many scholars in the past that said that music was permissible: Shawkawni, Ibn Hazm, Ghazalli, Abú Bakr al-'Arabi, Qaradawi, and others."

If we are going to have a battle of the scholars... the scholars who said music is haram are much more respected and higher is status (and Allah is the true Judge) than those guys.

Their names might not be familiar to you, but they are:

Ibn ‘Abbaas
Imam Malik
Imam Abu hanifa
Imam Ahmad
Imam As-shafa'i
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah

And many others.

But yeh, we don't follow scholars, we follow the evidence.

I like to sing scripture. Apart from the fact that I mean Christian scriptures, not the Quran, does that fit within or outside the context of the principles of Islam with regard to listening to or reciting the scriptures?

Sorry, I don't know.

Also, about the hadith being weak, it has been classifies by others as authentic... so I'm not sure about why they differ on this point.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It comes from the fact that the music is included in the sentence referring to things that were made lawful by these people. If music was already lawful, then why was it included as something that the people made lawful? Surely the only logical conclusion here is that the music was unlawful, and they made it lawful?

You use "only logical" in a way that I am not willing to (just as some people use "clearly" and "obviously" when things are neither clear nor obvious to me), but I do see your point in the grouping of the items. Btw, I had not heard that silk is haraam. Is it only mentioned here, or are there other places where it is also listed as haraam?

The sheep were not included in the sentence that is talking about the things that these people made permissible, whereas the music was.

Yes, this would follow from your other point.

If we are going to have a battle of the scholars... the scholars who said music is haram are much more respected and higher is status (and Allah is the true Judge) than those guys.

Their names might not be familiar to you, but they are:

Ibn ‘Abbaas
Imam Malik
Imam Abu hanifa
Imam Ahmad
Imam As-shafa'i
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah

And many others.

But yeh, we don't follow scholars, we follow the evidence.

No. That isn't my intent. But this must be one of the most broken commands in Islam, as every Eid party I have ever been to (a grand total of 2) has had music at it. And there are is so much music that comes out of countries like Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt, Morocco with large Muslim populations, some as high as 98%.

Also, about the hadith being weak, it has been classifies by others as authentic... so I'm not sure about why they differ on this point.

I didn't understand that website to be saying the hadith was not authentic, so much as challenging the interpretation of the hadith as being inconclusive on the point of prohibiting music.

 

[Malaikah]

Btw, I had not heard that silk is haraam. Is it only mentioned here, or are there other places where it is also listed as haraam?

Yeh, it is haram for men to wear silk. It is allowed for women though.

But this must be one of the most broken commands in Islam, as every Eid party I have ever been to (a grand total of 2) has had music at it. And there are is so much music that comes out of countries like Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt, Morocco with large Muslim populations, some as high as 98%.

I know, it upsets me so much that Muslims are so ignorant on this issue of music. Trust me, it is rare to find a Muslim who will believe it is haram... they just think we are making it up, and don't realize that most respected scholars say it is haram. But then, most of them don't care, they have become desensitised to haram things like music and most of the stuff on TV anyway.

I didn't understand that website to be saying the hadith was not authentic, so much as challenging the interpretation of the hadith as being inconclusive on the point of prohibiting music.

The part that you pasted before suggested a weakness in the hadith, however other scholars have said it is authentic (meaning there isn't a weakness).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yeh, it is haram for men to wear silk. It is allowed for women though.



I know, it upsets me so much that Muslims are so ignorant on this issue of music. Trust me, it is rare to find a Muslim who will believe it is haram... they just think we are making it up, and don't realize that most respected scholars say it is haram. But then, most of them don't care, they have become desensitised to haram things like music and most of the stuff on TV anyway.



The part that you pasted before suggested a weakness in the hadith, however other scholars have said it is authentic (meaning there isn't a weakness).

OK. Well, thank-you, Maliakah, for doing such a good job -- with the help of a few others -- of explaining this view regarding music.

Now you raised a second curiousity (I have many, but one at a time, unless others chime in). Why is it haraam for men to wear silk and not women? The hadith you cited earlier does not allude to the individuals' sex, so it would seem to me to apply to both genders.

 

[Malaikah]

You're welcome.

As for silk, yes, but there is other evidence to forbid it:

The scholars are agreed that it is permissible for women to wear and use pure silk, and that it is haraam for men to do so, because of the hadeeth of ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) took a piece of silk in his right hand and a piece of gold in his left, held them aloft and said: “These are haraam for the males of my ummah and permitted for the females.” (Reported by Ibn Maajah, 2/1189).
​

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=2037&ln=eng&txt=silk

As for the wisdoms:

The scholars have discussed the reasons for silk being forbidden for men in this world. For example, al-‘Allaamah Ibn al-Qayyim suggested in his brilliant work Zaad al-Ma’aad that:

“Among those who believe that there is reason and wisdom (behind the rulings of Islam) – and they are the majority – are some who answer that Islam has forbidden it so that people will keep away from it and give it up for the sake of Allaah, so they will be rewarded for that. Others reply that it was basically created for women, as is the case with gold jewellery, so it was forbidden for men because it can corrupt them by making them resemble women. Some of them said that it was forbidden because of what it may lead to in the way of pride, showing off and self-admiration. Some of them said that it was forbidden because when it touches the body, it makes a man effeminate and goes against his masculinity and manliness, so if he wears it his heart gains the characteristics of femininity and softness, as is obvious, even if he was the most masculine and chivalrous of men. There is no doubt that wearing silk will diminish these manly characteristics, if not take them away altogether. Whoever is too dense to understand this should just submit to the Wise Lawmaker.”​

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3662&ln=eng&txt=silk

 

[north_malaysian]

Greetings,


Also without trying to be offensive (I may have misunderstood you):

The call to prayer and reciting the Qur'an do have a rhythm. So do our voices when we speak, or our hearts when they beat. Does that make all of those things music and therefore haraam? I think not.

Peace

It's not the music that's haram, but the instruments used, the activities involved and the lyrics sung...(for very religious muslims .... of course)

 

[snakelegs]

why do many find it acceptable to watch TV and see movies? - everything has music in it.

 

[north_malaysian]

why do many find it acceptable to watch TV and see movies? - everything has music in it.

not all Muslims strictly follow this ruling... only ultra-observant Muslim does...

 

[shible]

i hope this link might help us to clear some issue of Music in Islam


here is the link

Music

 

[Malaikah]

why do many find it acceptable to watch TV and see movies? - everything has music in it.

The problem with movies is much greater than the just the music! Lets not forget the half-nakedness (or more like 90% nakedness), the time-wasting, the heart-harding, the illicit themes, the twisting of emotions, the presentation of morals and values contrary to those of Islam...

The list goes on.

 

[snakelegs]

actually, i would agree with you - most movies aren't worth watching. and i don't have a tv.
whenever music comes up here it seems a chorus (no instruments) of haram! haram! haram!
and yet movies and tv seem to be popular (maybe you don't watch them, but obviously many do) and they all have music.

 

[snakelegs]

not all Muslims strictly follow this ruling... only ultra-observant Muslim does...

i'm thankful that they don't, because muslims make some of the greatest music in the world!

 

[Malaikah]

and yet movies and tv seem to be popular (maybe you don't watch them, but obviously many do) and they all have music.

I know, it is so annoying!:raging:

 

[akulion]

Salam alaikum,

The first thing that we must understand is that Islam is not a new religion, but in fact it is the continuation of the same message which was sent through Abraham(s), Moses(s), Jesus(s) and the other prophets.

Before the advent of Moses(s) we can only assume that pork was allowed to be eaten by people. He brought the law forbidding it. This message was reaffirmed by Jesus(s) and also alcohol was prohibited. It is another matter that the Christians choose to ignore their scriptures and eat pork and drink wine, so we will not get into it. However according to scripture both Pork and Alcohol is forbidden for Christians.

"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 11:7-8)".

We see a reaffirmation of this law through Mohammed(s), and further more we see other laws being brought forward as well. I will get to these in a moment. First I would like to explain why I am giving all this historical context. The reason is to show that religion was sent down in parts by God to humanity so that they take the laws on one by one and dont get a whole chunk all at once. Also it was done to facilitate human understanding and learning.

As we get to Mohammed(s) we see some new laws being introduced, one of them being the forbiddance of Musical instruments of a certain kind.

As far as Islam is concerned the usage of:
- stringed and
- wind instruments
is forbidden.

However the usage of:
- duff (a kind of drum) and
- the tamborine
is not prohibited.
Also singing is not prohibited either as long as the song itself does not contain objectionable content such as swear words and inadequate theme matter (sexual etc)

So all this brings us to the Question 'why was Dawood(s) and other Prophets allowed it yet in the last stages we see a prohibition?'

To address this question is not a simple matter to be honest and we will have to discuss this over this topic with time. It requires some understanding of sociological effects of Music on society as well as a realistic observation of what is happening to humanity as a result.

So before I would begin, I will leave it here so that the readers can grasp all what I have written so far and understood it, so we can move on to the next step where I will attempt with my limited knowledge to answer my above stated question.

So once you are ready please let me know and I will continue

aku

 

[SilentObserver]

Hi
Without sounding offensive i'd just like to say that
Music is something that has a rythm

So poetry is not allowed as well?

Allah states in the Quran 'And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…' [Luqmaan 31:6]

It does not say that in the Quran. It says "'And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks to mislead from the path of Allaah…" That verse interpreted properly means something very different, and if you read it without what some guys added, it is clear what it means.

In Islam music is regarded as something without a purpose and these sort of acts are not allowed.

I think that what really happened was that some old man was feeling cranky one day, and the music was irritating him. So he told everybody that it was a waste of time and therefore not allowed.

In short,

Music is the tool of the devil.

Ever watch old episodes of Saturday Night Live with Dana Carvey? "Well now...... isn't that special?"

 

[Grace Seeker]

Before the advent of Moses(s) we can only assume that pork was allowed to be eaten by people. He brought the law forbidding it. This message was reaffirmed by Jesus(s) and also alcohol was prohibited. It is another matter that the Christians choose to ignore their scriptures and eat pork and drink wine, so we will not get into it. However according to scripture both Pork and Alcohol is forbidden for Christians.

"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 11:7-8)".

While I appreciate your contribution to the discussion to answer questions of which people may be curious with regards to Islam, the evidences you put forth with regard to Christian beliefs show that you do not have as clear of an understanding of them as you might suppose. I suggest that on this thread you restrict your commentary to that which you know best, that being Islam. Thank-you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi
Without sounding offensive i'd just like to say that
Music is something that has a rythm and the call to prayer or reciting the quran has none but it is readf with tune.
In Islam music is regarded as something without a purpose and these sort of acts are not allowed. Allah states in the Quran 'And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…' [Luqmaan 31:6]

So it is more than music, it is "idle talks" that here are haraam. What other things would that include: joking, movies, dime novels? I would think certainly gossip? I consider a lot of conversation just so much idle talk as people talk about the weather, sports, and probably even much of what we do here on internet forums.

Also, is the reference to music and singing actually in the text, or is that someone else's interpretation of what is being referred to by idle talk? And if it isn't actually in the text, on what basis does one consider music idle talk?

Music isn't necessarily even voiced, let alone talk. Indeed, singing differs from talk by virtue of the use of rythmn and pitch in a way that is not common to ordinary conversation. And while I suppose that one could term pop songs "idle" in nature, much of music is more serious than that or is intended as serious commentary and reflection on things such as life, God, the world in which we live -- hardly idle at all. So, unless the terms "(i.e. music, singing)" are actually part of the text, I don't see how this verse applies. Music may still be haraam based on other verses, but I would hardly think it could be even inferred from this verse.

 

[Keltoi]

Just a personal thought. I think the world would be quite boring without the gift of music. It is one of the greatest gifts to mankind. That is just me though.