Things in Islam I am curious about...

Re: We do it for God

I am at a loss to know in what way I am wrong. If you look at YOUR OWN insertion in post 1373 it is you claiming by way of an authority that disbelievers do things for worldly reward and believers for a reward in the hear after. So I am not sure what you are saying now since you seem to be agreeing with me and not with the authority you quoted. Unless of course you are being very careful with your words here meaning that every one gets a reward but some get it now and some later?

No-- I am saying that any good deed will be rewarded since God isn't unjust to his servants. How you'll be rewarded is a matter divine in nature..
That isn't to equate with heaven and hell as the road to those isn't simply contingent on good deeds...

to write this in a language you can understand..

say a few students contribute to a project, all of them having done good work, but they didn't put in equal efforts, one bought the material goods for the project, another conceptualized its scientific potential, in the end though they equally strived, each party will reap something for effort. someone might get an A, another an honorable mention, elevator privileges, free cafeteria food for a month.. it wasn't enough to earn an A but is rewarded in another fashion...

of course I can't begin to know how that will be on the day of recompense, only that God SWT does tell us, if anyone does an atom's worth of good or bad, they shall reap it on that day. Since God isn't unjust to his servants!

all the best
 
Dear Gossemer, with regard to the book of Job one cannot tell if it's a true story relating history or if it's a discourse in the form of a parable on suffering and how God relates to it. It is one of the oldest of OT books and Christians and Jews value it because of its message of hope even in adversity.


indeed.. in Islam Job isn't a parable, but a prophet of God from the lineage of Ishmael:

job
Prophet Job (Ayoub)
Ibn Ishaaq stated that he was a man of Rum. His name was Job, Ibn Mose, Ibn Razeh, Ibn Esau, Ibn Isaac (pbuh), Ibn Abraham (pbuh). Someone else said he was Job, Ibn Mose, Ibn Rimil, Ibn Esau, Ibn Isaac, Ibn Jacob. There have also been other statements on his lineage. Ibn Asaker narrated that his mother was a daughter of Lot (pbuh). It was said, also that his father was one who believed in Abraham (pbuh) when he was cast into the fire.​
The first opinion is the most plausible, because he was a descendant of Abraham's offspring as Allah Almighty declared: "That was Our proof which We gave Abraham against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All Knowing. And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob, each of them We guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good doers. (Ch 6:83-84)​
Allah the Almighty praised His worshipper Job in His Glorious Quran: Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us! (Ch 38:44)​
Job (pbuh) was repentant, remembering Allah with thankfulness, patience, and steadfastness. This was the cause of his rescue and the secret of Allah's praising him.​
A group of angels were discussing Allah's other human creatures, how those who were humble earned Allah's pleasure, while those who were arrogant incurred His displeasure. One of the angels remarked: "The best creature on earth today is Job, a man of noble character who displays great patience and always remembers his Generous Lord. He is an excellent model for the worshippers of Allah. In return, his Lord has blessed him with a long life and plenty of servants, as well as the needy and the poor share in his good fortune; he feeds and clothes the poor and buys slaves to set them free. He makes those who receive his charity feel as if they are favoring him so kind and gentle is he."​
Iblis overhearing all of this, became annoyed. He planned to tempt Job to corruption and disbelief, so he hastened to him. He tried to distract Job from his prayers by whispering him about the good things in life but Job was a true believer and would not let evil thoughts tempt him. This disturbed Iblis even more; thus he began to hate Job even more.​
Iblis complained to Allah about Job. He said that although he was continuously glorifying Allah he was not doing so out of his sincerity but to satisfy Allah so that his wealth should not be taken away. It was all a show, all out of greed. "If You remove his wealth then You will find that his tongue will no longer mention Your name and his praying will stop."​
Allah told Iblis that Job was one of His most sincere devotees. He did not worship Him because of the favors; his worship stemmed from his heart and had nothing to do with material things. But to prove to Iblis the depth of Job's sincerity and patience, Allah allowed him to do whatever he and his helpers wished with Job's wealth.​
Iblis was very happy. he gathered his helpers and set about destroying Job's cattle, servants and farms until he was left with no possessions. Rubbing his hands in glee, Iblis appeared before Job in the guise of a wise old man and said to him: "All your wealth is lost, some people say that it is because you gave too much charity and that you are wasting your time with your continuous prayers to Allah. Others say that Allah has brought this upon you in order to please your enemies. If Allah had the capacity to prevent harm, then He would have protected your wealth."​
True to his belief, Job replied: "What Allah has taken away from me belongs to Him. I was only its trustee for awhile. He gives to whom He wills and withholds from whom He wills." With these words, Job again prostrated to his Lord.​
When Iblis saw this, he felt frustrated, so he again addressed Allah: "I have stripped Job of all his possessions, but he still remains grateful to You. However he is only hiding his disappointment, for he places great store by his many children. The real test of a parent is through his children. You will see how Job will reject You."​
Allah granted Iblis authority but warned him that it would not reduce Job' faith in His Lord nor his patience.​
Iblis again gathered his helpers and set about his evil deeds. He shook the fountain of the house in which Job's children were living and sent the building crashing, killing all of them. Then he went to Job disguised as a man who had come to sympathize with him. In a comforting tone he said to Job: "The circumstances under which your children died were sad. Surely, your Lord is not rewarding you properly for all your prayers." Having said this, Iblis waited anxiously hoping Job was now ready to reject Allah.​
But again Job disappointed him by replying: "Allah sometimes gives and sometimes takes. He is sometimes pleased and sometimes displeased with our deeds. Whether a thing is beneficial or harmful to me, I will remain firm in my belief and remain thankful to my Creator." then Job prostrated to his Lord. At this Iblis was extremely vexed.​
Iblis called on Allah. "O my Lord, Job's wealth is gone, his children are dead, and he is still healthy in body, and as long as he enjoys good health he will continue to worship You in the hope of regaining his wealth and producing more children. Grant me authority over his body so that I may weaken it. He will surely neglect worshipping You an will thus become disobedient."​
Allah wanted to teach Iblis a lesson that Jo was a devoted servant of his Lord so He granted Iblis his 3rd request but placed a condition: "I give you authority over his body but not over his soul, intellect or heart, for in these places reside the knowledge of Me and My religion."​
Armed with this new authority, Iblis began to take revenge on Job's body and filled it with disease until it was reduced to mere skin and bone and he suffered severe pain. But through all the suffering Job remained strong in his faith, patiently bearing all the hardships without complaining. Allah's righteous servant did not despair or turn to others for help but remained hopeful of Allah's mercy. Even close relatives and friends deserted him. Only his kind, loving wife stayed with him. In his hour of need, she showered her kindness on him and cared for him. She remained his sole companion and comforter through the many years of suffering.​
Ibn Asaker narrated: "Job was a man having much wealth of all kinds; beats, slaves, sheep, vast lands of Haran and many children. All those favors were taken from him and he was physically afflicted as well. Never a single organ was sound except his heart and tongue, with both of which he glorified Allah, the Almighty all the time day and night. His disease lasted for a long time until his visitors felt disgusted with him. His friends kept away from him and people abstained from visiting him. No one felt sympathy for him except his wife. She took good care of him, knowing his former charity and pity for her."​
Therefore Iblis became desperate. He consulted his helpers, but they could not advise him. They asked : "How is it that your cleverness cannot work against Job, yet you succeeded in misleading Adam the father of man, out of Paradise?"​

Iblis went to Job's wife in the form of a man. "Where is your husband?" he asked her.​
She pointed to an almost lifeless form crumbled on the bed and said: "There he is, suspended between life and death."​
Iblis reminded her of the days, when Job had good health, wealth and children. Suddenly, the painful memory of years of hardship overcame her, and she burst into tears. She said to Job: "How long are you going to bear this torture from our Lord? Are we to remain without wealth, children or friends forever? Why don't you call upon Allah to remove this suffering?"​
Job sighed, and in a soft voice replied : "Iblis must have whispered to you and made you dissatisfied. Tell me how long did I enjoy good health and riches?"​
She replied: "80 years."​
Then Job replied: "How long am I suffering like this?"​
She said: "7 years."​
Job then told her: "In that case I am ashamed to call on my Lord to remove the hardship, for I have not suffered longer than the years of good health and plenty. It seems your faith has weakened and you are dissatisfied with the fate of Allah. If I ever regain health, I swear I will punish you with a hundred strokes! From this day onward, I forbid myself to eat or drink anything by your hand. Leave me alone and let my Lord do with me as He pleases."​
Crying bitterly and with a heavy heart, she had no choice but to leave him and seek shelter elsewhere. In this helpless sate, Job turned to Allah, not to complain but to seek His mercy: "Verily! distress has seized me and You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy." so We answered his call, and we removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his family to him (that he had lost), and the like thereof along with them as a mercy from Ourselves and a Reminder for all who worship Us." (Ch 21:83-84)​
Almighty Allah also instructed: "Remember Our slave Job, when he invoked His Lord saying: "Verily! Satan has touched me with distress (by losing my health) and torment (by losing my wealth)!" Allah said to him: "Strike the ground with your foot: This is a spring of water to wash in and cool and a refreshing drink." And We gave him back his family, and along with them the like thereof as a Mercy from Us, and a reminder for those who understand. (Ch 38:41-43)​
Job obeyed and almost immediately his good health was restored. Meanwhile, his faithful wife could not longer bear to be parted from her husband and returned to him to beg his forgiveness, desiring to serve him. On entering her house, she was amazed at the sudden change: Job was again healthy! She embraced him and thanked Allah for His mercy.​
Job was not worried, for he had taken an oath to punish her with a hundred strokes if he had regained health but he had no desire to hurt her. He knew if he did not fulfill the oath, he would be guilty of breaking a promise to Allah. Therefore in His wisdom and mercy, Allah came to the assistance of His faithful servant and advised him: "take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith your wife, and break not your oath." Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us!" (Ch 38:44)​
Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "While Job was naked, taking a bath, a swarm of gold locusts fell on him, and he started collecting them in his garment. His Lord called him: "O Job! Have I not made you too rich to need what you see?" He said: "Yes, My Lord! But I cannot shun Your Blessings." (Al Bukhari)​


http://www.angelfire.com/on/ummiby1/job.html
 
indeed.. in Islam Job isn't a parable, but a prophet of God from the lineage of Ishmael:

Interesting because Job is a very old book and I would probably say pre-dates Abraham but Scholars generally agree that neither the time when Job lived, nor the date of composition nor the author can be determined with any certainty but probably dates c2,000BC though it's present written form may date around the time of Solomon.

It may be of interest to you but there are Bibles with the verses printed chronologically (as there are Qu'rans) and the most common way to do that is to have the first few chapters of Genesis interwoven with all of Job. The rationale for this is bound up with ideas about the nature of sin, suffering and righteousness which is what Job is all about. When Christians study Job they tend to follow it by studying Ecclesiastes - is that a book valued by Islam?

Best Wishes, going off line now as I have a few students to see. Peace be with you.
 
Interesting because Job is a very old book and I would probably say pre-dates Abraham but Scholars generally agree that neither the time when Job lived, nor the date of composition nor the author can be determined with any certainty but probably dates c2,000BC though it's present written form may date around the time of Solomon.

It may be of interest to you but there are Bibles with the verses printed chronologically (as there are Qu'rans) and the most common way to do that is to have the first few chapters of Genesis interwoven with all of Job. The rationale for this is bound up with ideas about the nature of sin, suffering and righteousness which is what Job is all about. When Christians study Job they tend to follow it by studying Ecclesiastes - is that a book valued by Islam?

Best Wishes, going off line now as I have a few students to see. Peace be with you.


There are several lineages that we have to prophet Job, all of them connect him with Abraham or asaker, whose mother was the daughter of lot..
but generally excepted that he was of the lineage of Abraham.

a Quran in chronological order, would please no one save for folks with a sinister vested interest.. one of the miracles of the Quran is that though verses might come twenty years from each other, they are divinely inspired to be in a particular sura, to follow rhythmically, contextually, lyrically, meaningfully, (for those who reflect) as you can see from any recitation of the Quran how incredibly captivating and melodious, and makes perfect sense.. you may contrast that with hadiths Qudsi and Nabwai as I have already covered on this thread...

anyone can tell the Quran from any other text, simply the language is very distinguished and poetic and other worldly.

Any books of Solomon or otherwise are best covered in the hadith or the Quran, we don't regard previous scriptures to fill in the gaps, simply because we can't verify which of it is true and which is fabricated. Thus whatever agrees with Islamic scriptures we can agree upon, whatever disagrees we disregard.

Any interest with previous scriptures would be from a da3wah point of view, I personally see no use to it, since I don't give da3wah... it is interesting from a historical point of view, but I don't find it historically accurate, like much of art history (which I enjoy immensely) but find very misleading if one were to take it at face value..

all the best
 
one of the miracles of the Quran is that though verses might come twenty years from each other, they are divinely inspired to be in a particular sura, to follow rhythmically, contextually, lyrically, meaningfully, (for those who reflect) as you can see from any recitation of the Quran how incredibly captivating and melodious, and makes perfect sense..

In light of this, how was the Qur'an viewed when it had been received in part but not yet in its totality? After he had received the first part(s) of it, did Muhammed know that there were more passages yet to be received?


we don't regard previous scriptures to fill in the gaps, simply because we can't verify which of it is true and which is fabricated.
Also, to what should men & women who wanted to follow Allah have turned between the time of Jesus and Muhammed?
 
as for those who were before Islam, they will be judged by the standards given to them, or to how closely they followed their own conscience/Fitrah.

What do you mean, "before Islam"? I assume you are using it colloquially, as referring to the particular form of Islam that has existed since Muhammed (pbuh)?

I often read people on LI who claim that the only true religion that has ever existed, the faith of all of the prophets, has been Islam. Would it be fair to say that these have been different manifestations of Islam than its present manifestation? The message of those prior prophets was of a similar nature to, but not identical with the Qur'an. Or was it?
 
In light of this, how was the Qur'an viewed when it had been received in part but not yet in its totality? After he had received the first part(s) of it, did Muhammed know that there were more passages yet to be received?

I believe there were two instances where the Prophet PBUH was teased about the revelation, we can see clearly one in this sura, which is a divine consolation to the prophet:

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVTT3rBeIrs[/MEDIA]


Muhammad Asad
AD-DUHA (THE BRIGHT MORNING HOURS)
THE NINETY-THIRD SURAH
Total Verses: 11
MECCA PERIOD

Introduction

IT IS SAID that after surah 89 (Al-Fajr) was revealed, some time elapsed during which the Prophet did not receive any revelation, and that his opponents in Mecca taunted him on this score, saying, "Thy God has forsaken and scorned thee!" - whereupon the present surah was revealed. Whether or not we accept this somewhat doubtful story, there is every reason to assume that the surah as such, although in the first instance addressed to the Prophet, has a far wider purport: it concerns - and is meant to console - every faithful man and woman suffering from the sorrows and bitter hardships which so often afflict the good and the innocent, and which sometimes cause even the righteous to question God's transcendental justice.​

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

1) CONSIDER the bright morning hours,

(2) and the night when it grows still and dark.*

* The expression "bright morning hours" apparently symbolizes the few and widely-spaced periods of happiness in human life, as contrasted with the much greater length of "the night when it grows still and dark", i.e., the extended periods of sorrow or suffering that, as a rule, overshadow man's existence in this world (cf. 90 : 4). The further implication is that, as sure as morning follows night, God's mercy is bound to lighten every suffering, either in this world or in the life to come - for God has "willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy" (6:12 and 54).

(3) Thy Sustainer has not forsaken thee, nor does He scorn thee:*

*Sc., ''as the thoughtless might conclude in view of the suffering that He has willed thee to bear".

(4) for, indeed, the life to come will be better for thee than this earlier part [of thy life]!

(5) And, indeed, in time will thy Sustainer grant thee [what thy heart desires], and thou shalt be well-pleased.

(6) Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter?*

*Possibly an allusion to the fact that Muhammad was born a few months after his father's death, and that his mother died when he was only six years old. Apart from this, however, every human being is an "orphan" in one sense or another, inasmuch as everyone is "created in a lonely state" (cf. 6:94), and "will appear before Him on Resurrection Day in a lonely state" (19:95).

(7) And found thee lost on thy way, and guided thee?

(8) And found thee in want, and given thee sufficiency?

(9) Therefore, the orphan shalt thou never wrong,

(10) and him that seeks [thy] help shalt thou never chide,*

*The term sa'il denotes" literally, "one who asks", which signifies not only a "beggar" but anyone who asks for help in a difficult situation, whether physical or moral, or even for enlightenment.

(11) and of thy Sustainer's blessings shalt thou [ever] speak.*

*Sc., "rather than of thy suffering".



So my guess is they were revealed as Allah swt willed not out of desire of the prophet to know more.





Also, to what should men & women who wanted to follow Allah have turned between the time of Jesus and Muhammed?






of the long and short of it:

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thanks for your interesting question and we implore Allah to grant us all a happy and blessed abode in Paradise.

In Islam, there are two distinct stages after death. The first stage is known as the stage of the barzakh or the life of the grave. The other stage is the Day of Judgment and eternal life in Heaven or Hell. Each of these stages has its own distinctive characteristics.

As Muslims, we must never give in to speculation, as people of diverse religions have done, especially matters related to the unseen or ghayb as the unseen world, as far as Islam is concerned, remains forever beyond rational speculation.

Responding to the question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:


In Islam there are two areas of knowledge: First, the areas that are subject to human cognition; second, those that are not subject to human cognition. While knowledge of the first category is the subject of observation, experimentation, and empirical standards, the knowledge of the second category is not simply so. Since things in the second category are not subject to the senses, empirical testing and observation, or rational scrutiny, they are known in Islam as matters of the ghayb (Unseen). The matters of ghayb, we are told, are known only to God. Therefore, the only way humans can have any access whatsoever to such matters must be solely through the medium of revelation.

Since matters of the ghayb are veiled from us, the only knowledge that we can gain concerning them comes through God’s own disclosure through His chosen messengers and revealed scriptures. The Qur’an claims to be the final one, confirming the truths revealed to all prophets and containing a full exposition of all things that humans need for guidance. What we know from the Qur’an is that man’s life does not end with death but continues after.

There are two distinct stages beyond death: The first stage is that of barzakh, the life of the grave, and the other is Judgment Day and eternal life in Heaven or Hell. Each of these stages is different from the other, just as they are different from the stages that humans have passed through prior to their death.

All [revealed] religions agree on the basic notion of Heaven and Hell; but they differ in their precise articulation of their nature and content. The difficulty is that human knowledge is not simply meant to depict or describe the nature of eternal life or Heaven or Hell; at best, what we are given in the scripture about such matters can be considered as reminders and approximations, nothing more. How can language, which has been created to describe the things of the limited world, be used to describe the experience of eternal life, which is beyond all comparison? Allah said, (No soul knows what is kept hidden for them of delights of eyes, as a reward for what they used to do) (As-Sajdah: 32:17). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “In the Heaven there will be such bliss the like of no eye has ever witnessed, no ears have heard about, nor any mind has ever conceived.” (Reported by At-Tabarani)

If Heaven is utmost bliss, then Hell is the utmost suffering, pain, and misery—beside which, all of the troubles of this world would seem utterly insignificant.

The differences among religions in describing Heaven and Hell have more to do with speculation and theology, rather than revelation. As Muslims, we must never give in to speculation, as people of diverse religions have done, especially in regards to matters of the ghayb, which must remain forever beyond rational speculation. So never give much importance to such theologies. Focus on the idea of the existence of these realms, and internalize these concepts and beliefs deeply. When we do so, Allah will grant us an experiential certainty. As the Prophet asked one of his Companions, “What is the reality of your faith?” He replied, “It is as though I see plainly the throne of God in front of me!” The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), then told him, “You have attained true knowledge, and, therefore, persevere in it.”

In other words, when a believer believes in Allah and His Messenger and submits to His will earnestly and sincerely, and experiences faith deep within himself or herself, those matters that are veiled become overriding realities and deep convictions that fill the heart and mind. Consequently, the eyes of the heart will be open to attest and testify to the truth of it. That is the only door open to us in regards to such matters.

On the other hand, engaging in idle speculation about the nature of Heaven and Hell and what lies beyond death, and articulating about them in human terms, is a futile endeavor. It will never yield us any beneficial knowledge. As humans, we are better advised to recognize the limitations of human knowledge and know the Qur’anic dictum, (And of the knowledge you have been given but little) (Al-Israa’ 17:85); and (They know only certain appearances of the life of this world, and are unaware of the Hereafter) (Ar-Rum 30:7).

As for the differences among religions with regard to describing the life beyond death, it is due to unwarranted speculation. Concerning such differences, we are told by Allah, (Your Lord shall judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that in which they differ) (As-Sajdah 32:25). (Mankind was only one nation, then they fell into variance; and had it not been for a word that had already gone forth from our Lord, their differences would have been settled between them) (Yunus 10:19). (Those who believe, the Jews, the Sabaeans, the Christians, the Magians, and the Idolaters, Allah will surely judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is witness over all things) (Al-Hajj 22:17). (And say, “We believe in that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we surrender) (Al-`Ankabut 29:46). (And if they argue with you, say, “I have surrendered myself to Allah, and (so have) those who follow me.” And say to those who have received the Book and those who read not, “Do you too surrender yourself to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, your only duty is to convey the message. God is aware of His servants) (Aal `Imran 3:20)​
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503549554


and the short of it, I believe those who were true believers (like the christian folks of ahel al'kahf' chapter (18) were on pure Islamic monotheism, so insha'Allah they are in heaven..

all the best
 
Thanks M, but I'm thinking that you may not have understood my second question. Given that Islam believes that sometime shortly after delivering his message Jesus' Injil was corrupted (whether by the church or the disciples themselves doesn't matter for my question), yet one hopes and trust that there were good men and women who truly wanted to follow God. But the Qur'an had not yet been revealed. So, they were sort of in the dark. Would it have been better for them to have followed what little light there was in the Bible (corruption and all), to try to ferret out the truth from whatever scraps they could find of traces of the true Injil (though how would they know that whether what they might find was or was not true?), or should they just be content to live as their hearts best directed them, though it meant living in darkness.

Perhaps this is complete speculation and you can't really answer it. But I was curious if there was any position in Islam on this matter for it seems to me that it must have occurred many times given the succession of prophets who each had a message for their own time and people prior to Muhammad. Large numbers of people in this world would have been without Allah's message until relatively recently, so surely this has been addressed at some level. If not specifically about the people between the prophets, then at least about those who have yet to receive the revelation of the Qur'an?
 
people are raised based on their intention, and there is none more Just than Allah swt. So if they were righteous I wouldn't worry. I know this question was answered by Ansar Al'Adl before, I am just too lazy to use the search feature, as I don't want to rummage through a heap of threads, nonetheless, your take home message is, the righteous always find their reward with God...

peace
 
Re: Sourcs, what are they?

There are several lineages that we have to prophet Job, all of them connect him with Abraham or asaker, whose mother was the daughter of lot.. but generally excepted that he was of the lineage of Abraham.
all the best

This is quite an interesting statement but I am puzzled by it:

1. I may be misunderstanding this but are you saying the mother of Abraham was one of Lot's daughters? Or are you saying that Job's mother was one of Lot's daughters?

2. As far as I know, there is only one source for the Job story and that is found in the Hebrew Bible so can you explain what sources you are using to get a lineage for Job and his link with Abraham?
 
Re: Sourcs, what are they?

This is quite an interesting statement but I am puzzled by it:

1. I may be misunderstanding this but are you saying the mother of Abraham was one of Lot's daughters? Or are you saying that Job's mother was one of Lot's daughters?

2. As far as I know, there is only one source for the Job story and that is found in the Hebrew Bible so can you explain what sources you are using to get a lineage for Job and his link with Abraham?

you've never read the Quran (translation) have you?
 
Re: Curious, very Curious

HelloHazrat Ayoub Alahi salaam is our version of job if I'm not confused, we only know 25 by name thus see no point in speculating. Hazraat

Adam, Idris (Enoch), Nuh (Noah), Hud, Saleh, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Lut (Lot), Ya'qub (Jacob), Yousef (Joseph), Shu'aib Musa (Moses), Harun (Aaron), Dhu'l-kifl (Ezekiel), Dawud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Ilias (Elias), Al-Yasa (Elisha), Yunus (Jonah), Zakariyya (Zechariah), Yahya (John the Baptist), 'Isa (Jesus), Muhammad

Peace be upon them all
Thank you for the answer but I am not entirely sure what you are saying. You pointed to a post which stated

"The Prophet Ayub (peace be upon him) was one of the descendants of the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) and a nephew of Prophet Ya'qub (peace be upon him). He was sent to reform the people who lived in the desert situated in the north eastern corner of Palestine. When Ayub (Job) was chosen to be the Prophet, he started to teach the people about God and His religion. He advised the people to do good and shun evil. As usual with all the Prophets very few people believed in him in the beginning but gradually the number of his followers began to increase."

Some questions:

1. Is the post you quoted a copy of the Islamic source for all you know about Job? (There were some refs but they are incomplete).

2. Job as a Biblical book is 42 chapters long and mostly we agree with the small summary you (or someone) gave so where did that summary come from and do you accept the book of Job as found in all Bibles?

3. There is no hint in the Bible of Job's lineage as far as I know and neither is there a hint of his mission being to reform anyone, the book is about Job and his struggle to understand suffering even for the righteous. Can you explain therefore how you arrived at the Islamic view of what Job was about?

4. Your list of prophets is similar to Biblical ones except for Isma'il and Mohammed. So from what source and authority do you derive this list.
 
Re: Its about clarity

you've never read the Quran (translation) have you?

Yes, I have read it in translation several times and your use of an ad hominem argument is inappropriate. May I just point you to what was said then you may be able to understand what was being asked. This is part of a post by Gossamer.

There are several lineages that we have to prophet Job, all of them connect him with Abraham or asaker, whose mother was the daughter of lot..
but generally excepted that he was of the lineage of Abraham.


My question therefore was not about the qu'ran but about this sentence and what it is saying. Is it saying that Abraham's mother was Lot's daughter or is it saying that Lot's daughter was the mother of Job or possibly something else?
 
Re: Its about clarity

Yes, I have read it in translation several times and your use of an ad hominem argument is inappropriate.


what argument?
 
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Re: Its about clarity

HelloI was going to reply to this ^^ but then saw the post quoted below which put me right off the Idea (because it looks as if some one is looking for a "fight")

Hugo - this is another ad hominem argument of the circumstancial kind. All I was doing was seeking clarification so why accuse me(?) of wanting a "fight"?

first and foremost, you should know that I am not going to speculate and am only going to say what I can back-up when need arises.

Hugo - that is fair although sometime all we can do is speculate

as far as your question about source of my knowledge is concerned, I can tell you that it is from Quran as explained by Quran it self without resorting to anything else,

the only Ahaadess I accept are the ones which corroborate Quran (i.e. are in accordance with the Holy Quran and I also accept those that do not sully the character of the Holy Prophet and his companions), and leave those that I do not understand and reject those which add to or take away from (i.e abrogate verses) Quran (regardless of narrator chain).

I am not sure but I think you mean the other way round, that the Qu'ran corroborates what the prophet later said and did otherwise it sounds like you are putting the prophet before God - or perhaps I misunderstand what you imply here.

I understand what you are saying though I assume you mean acceptance here in a limited, perhaps moral or spiritual sense as there are millions of things that the Qu'ran or hadeeth cannot corroborate - or do you have a different view?
 
Re: no Its about evangelising by distorting

you are either not understanding or are deliberately twisting what I am saying

I think I made it absolutely plain that I did not understand what you were saying about the nature of corroboration and the limits to acceptability. I cannot see anything in what I said that is twisting anything. I must say that firstly you say I am looking for a 'fight' and now I am 'twisting what you say' but what reason have I given you for either of these two false assertions?
 

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