Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

I'm almost scared to follow up with another question about music -- you see, when I started this thread, I never realized how divisive of an issue that it could be within the Ummah itself. I had actually intended to ask what I thought was a rather innocuous question. Show how little I knew at the time. But I've been learning. Anyway, a different question....

Given that (at least based on the response in this forum) that music is considered haram in Islam. And yet given that many Muslims live in secular countries where music is broadcast everywhere and many Muslims in them do end up not just listening to music by accident, but also doing so intentionally. And also given that in many predominately Muslim countries that music remains a very important and predominant part of the culture and social life. The result is that many Muslims around the world actually include music as a part of their daily life. And, further, as attested by some of the answers in this thread, it is also a given that there are not just a few, but large groups of Muslims that do NOT view music as haraam, and think that such an interpretation is in err. Thus illustrating that at times there are genuine conflicts of opinion within the Ummah among sincere Muslims who are trying to live a life of Islam. Which finally leads me to my question.

Given that there are these genuine conflicts of opinion within the Ummah among sincere Muslims who are trying to live a life of Isalm as to what the expectations of Isalm actually are, how are such differences typically dealt with and resolved?

a) Do most Muslims simply shrug their shoulders and have a live and let live attitude toward differences within the Umman regarding what is and is not appropriate Islamic practices?

b) Do "conservative" and "liberal" Muslims (I doubt if those are the best terms, but it's what I could come up with at the moment) often argue with each other with regard to proper intepretation and application of the faith to issues such as music, wearing a hijab, dating, etc.?

c) Is pressure brought to bear within the local Islamic community for people to conform to the majority custom?

d) Do people intentionally try to avoid bringing up subject that are known to be sources of discord so as to maintain as much harmony as possible in the local Islamic community or with family and friends?

e) Do most Muslims simply seek out those that they are basically in agreement with and avoid those that they are not?

Or perhaps I'm not even asking the right question(s).


Again, my question is not really about music. The subject matter is just illustrative that while there is a dominant opinion here that it is haraam, that it is not universally agreed upon. And thus there is conflict within the Ummah over it -- even you have reached your own personal opinion and are convinced that the Qur'an and Hadith support you, there is another Muslim out there who feels just as strongly on the opposite side of this issue -- so, my question is about how does the Ummah deal with such internal conflict with regard to what are accepted beliefs when they are not equally accepted by all?

 

[rpwelton]

I'm almost scared to follow up with another question about music -- you see, when I started this thread, I never realized how divisive of an issue that it could be within the Ummah itself. I had actually intended to ask what I thought was a rather innocuous question. Show how little I knew at the time. But I've been learning. Anyway, a different question....

Given that (at least based on the response in this forum) that music is considered haram in Islam. And yet given that many Muslims live in secular countries where music is broadcast everywhere and many Muslims in them do end up not just listening to music by accident, but also doing so intentionally. And also given that in many predominately Muslim countries that music remains a very important and predominant part of the culture and social life. The result is that many Muslims around the world actually include music as a part of their daily life. And, further, as attested by some of the answers in this thread, it is also a given that there are not just a few, but large groups of Muslims that do NOT view music as haraam, and think that such an interpretation is in err. Thus illustrating that at times there are genuine conflicts of opinion within the Ummah among sincere Muslims who are trying to live a life of Islam. Which finally leads me to my question.

Given that there are these genuine conflicts of opinion within the Ummah among sincere Muslims who are trying to live a life of Isalm as to what the expectations of Isalm actually are, how are such differences typically dealt with and resolved?

a) Do most Muslims simply shrug their shoulders and have a live and let live attitude toward differences within the Umman regarding what is and is not appropriate Islamic practices?

b) Do "conservative" and "liberal" Muslims (I doubt if those are the best terms, but it's what I could come up with at the moment) often argue with each other with regard to proper intepretation and application of the faith to issues such as music, wearing a hijab, dating, etc.?

c) Is pressure brought to bear within the local Islamic community for people to conform to the majority custom?

d) Do people intentionally try to avoid bringing up subject that are known to be sources of discord so as to maintain as much harmony as possible in the local Islamic community or with family and friends?

e) Do most Muslims simply seek out those that they are basically in agreement with and avoid those that they are not?

Or perhaps I'm not even asking the right question(s).

One thing that a Muslim should always do before correcting another Muslim is to find out if a particular issue has a valid difference of opinion.

With the issue of music, unless a person is listening to something offensive or listening to music excessively (when he/she could instead be listening to Qur'an), I probably wouldn't make an issue out of it because there is a difference of opinion.

Same goes for zabihah/non-zabihah meat (ie, slaughtered by a Muslim vs. meat slaughtered in this country, but maybe not by a person of the Book). I know there is a difference of opinion here, and while I disagree with the opinion that it's OK to eat supermarket meat in the US, I won't make an issue out of it because there's a valid difference of opinion allowing the latter (and this issue in particular really depends upon a person's conscience and level of awareness).

I could go down the line, but suffice it to say we have to learn to live with each other's differences (in fiqh) when they are genuinely backed up by evidence from known scholars. The great imams never were enemies of one another simply because they held different views in jurisprudence; they never considered themselves from different sects or groups of Islam because of their differences.

So generally the community (at least in my experience) does not try to force conformity upon the people when it comes to matters of jurisprudence, because differences have always existed. Occasionally you'll get an overzealous brother who will tell you that you really need to go down in prostration hands first instead of knees first, not realizing that the scholars themselves differ over this matter.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Also, speaking of Jim Morrison, he is a perfect example of how music can be corrupt. I'll admit it, there was a time when I though the Doors created some of the most beautiful lyrical music ever. Though I still listen to them at times, I can now recognize the message Jim sends to his fans (who worshiped him like an idol).. His message? Utter Chaos. Can you imagine how many people followed the 'Lizard King' as though he had some divine knowledge?

You've got his message absolutely. The Doors were an excellent band, but it would be very foolish to follow any "guidance" from the mind of Jim Morrison. He wrote great lyrics and had a powerful voice, but as a human being he was a complete disaster.

Music is something many people. yes even most muslims, really enjoy. Music can bring about many beautiful feelings and ideas, but, as Jim Morrison says "When the musics over, turn off the lights".

It's "turn out the lights". You're clearly not as much of a fan as you thought you were, so perhaps there's not so much harm done.

Peace

 

[Italianguy]

Edit on request of Grace seeker himself: This thread covers significantly more issue than just music which in has been sufficiently addressed over the last several month; new posters are requested to join the thread in progress on the last page, rather then just repeating what has already been stated numerous times among the many pages of this thread.

Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.

And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)


First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?

Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.

What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?

I love music of all kinds, Bhangra being my favorite. I play the Dhol. I will be at the 2009 Boston Bhangra Competition on Nov 14th... I do like the Adhan, it sounds beautiful. Sorry to offend anyone.

 

[ardianto]

I love music of all kinds, Bhangra being my favorite. I play the Dhol. I will be at the 2009 Boston Bhangra Competition on Nov 14th... I do like the Adhan, it sounds beautiful. Sorry to offend anyone.

Actually, not every Muslim scholar agree, music is totally haram.
Mostly Indonesian Muslim scholar allow Islamic songs with complete instruments such as guitar, bass, drum, etc. Because, for Muslims, listen to Islamic Music is better than listen to wild underground music.

 

[Hugo]

Re: Prophets: Paragons of Virtue?

Are you saying this verse has no other application but to this one particular incident? Quite the contrary; it speaks to all who go around spreading rumors and warns them of how evil it is.

Many of the verses in the Qur'an came down to deal with specific incidents, but the verses are not limited to the scope of any one instance; they continue to apply to mankind time after time.

I see your point but if this is just recorded history then I have no issue but it does look on your interpretation as if the whole incident was planned by God before time to teach this one point yet Moses taught through the 10 commandments about 1,600 years before when he said "You must not give false evidence against your neighbour".

 

[Hugo]

Actually, not every Muslim scholar agree, music is totally haram.
Mostly Indonesian Muslim scholar allow Islamic songs with complete instruments such as guitar, bass, drum, etc. Because, for Muslims, listen to Islamic Music is better than listen to wild underground music.

I am coming rather late to this discussion but I have searched the Hadith and Qu'ran and I cannot find any clear teaching though I know that for many Muslims music is regarded as forbidden.

Music is found everywhere and its range is huge so to me it is simply illogical to ban it all for no reason at all that I can see. As I look through the postings often the arguments seems to be of the form "Billy is bad, Billy is a boy therefore all boys are bad" and that is so logically flawed as an argument that it is worthless. If I put my cards on the table then if Islam forbids me listening to Mozart, Schumann and Schubert then then that alone would stop me even considering Islam.

Can anyone tell us where in the Qu'ran it states Music is forbidden or where in the Hadith we can see such an injunction?

 

[Uthman]

Can anyone tell us where in the Qu'ran it states Music is forbidden or where in the Hadith we can see such an injunction?

See this link: http://www.islamicboard.com/worship-islam/20238-music-singing-light-quran-sunnah.html

You might want to skim through it as opposed to reading through all of it. Otherwise, grab yourself a coffee because you're going to be there a long time.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Music is found everywhere and its range is huge so to me it is simply illogical to ban it all for no reason at all that I can see. As I look through the postings often the arguments seems to be of the form "Billy is bad, Billy is a boy therefore all boys are bad" and that is so logically flawed as an argument that it is worthless. If I put my cards on the table then if Islam forbids me listening to Mozart, Schumann and Schubert then then that alone would stop me even considering Islam.

You have hit the nail on the head - I couldn't agree more.

When pressed, many Muslims will admit that they have no idea why musical instruments are forbidden, but the fact that they have been is enough, so they just have to "hear and obey".

Peace

 

[zakirs]

If I put my cards on the table then if Islam forbids me listening to Mozart, Schumann and Schubert then then that alone would stop me even considering Islam.

I am not arguing about the rationality of the ruling but the single sentence hugo used.Is your love of GOD so small that you wouldn't forego a small moment happiness for him?

 

[Supreme]

Greetings,


You have hit the nail on the head - I couldn't agree more.

When pressed, many Muslims will admit that they have no idea why musical instruments are forbidden, but the fact that they have been is enough, so they just have to "hear and obey".

Peace

Yes, that is rather strange, isn't it? Music is a big (OK, massive) part of my life. I'm actually trying to learn the guitar right now so I can play it in church services whilst the congregation is singing.

 

[Hugo]

I am not arguing about the rationality of the ruling but the single sentence hugo used.Is your love of GOD so small that you wouldn't forego a small moment happiness for him?

I think you have not read what I actually wrote - I did not say if I cannot have music I will not have God I said if I cannot have music then I will not accept Islam. To my mind God would never deny us what is good and to my mind and probably a billion others music is good so I embrace it. If one looks at the Bible OT and NT then one finds Music and Musical instruments almost every where - Moses for example instructs that scripture is sung to and by the people and at the other end we have Jesus and the disciples just after the last supper singing a hymn.

One of the issues I have is that there is NOT a single OT prophet who forbade music, quite the opposite as it was often commanded. Yet, in Islam which came much much later we have your scholars (although there is nothing in there Qu'ran) saying the opposite - are then we to assume that they in some way outrank Moses (and indeed the Qu'ran) and that God after a wait of perhaps 2,500 years from Abraham changed his mind - it does not make sense does it?

I see one argument used is that Music leads to sin but that is such a hopelessly puerile argument that it is in my view worthless. Almost anything can lead to sin: football, sex, food so why single out music. Let me give an example, it is said that As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, i:304, quoting at-Tabari and al-Baihaqi in the Shu'ab al-Iman. Narrated by Aus ath-thaquafi recalls the Prophet saying

"A person's recitation without the aid of a written copy elicits a reward of a thousand degrees, but his recitation using a written copy double that reward to two thousand".

Now setting aside what this reward means this seems to indicate that any reading of the Qu'ran brings blessing. But of course it cannot mean that else in the recent film fitna, a highly critical attack on Islam, where Qu'ran recitation is used one can hardly argue that those who read the words were blessed by God. It follows that if we argue that something might lead to sin so it should be forbidden then I have just demonstrated that even the most holy can be misused.

 

[Ramadhan]

To my mind God would never deny us what is good and to my mind and probably a billion others music is good so I embrace it.

Do you not think God knows what is good (or rather, best) for us?

 

[zakirs]

I think you have not read what I actually wrote - I did not say if I cannot have music I will not have God I said if I cannot have music then I will not accept Islam. To my mind God would never deny us what is good and to my mind and probably a billion others music is good so I embrace it. If one looks at the Bible OT and NT then one finds Music and Musical instruments almost every where - Moses for example instructs that scripture is sung to and by the people and at the other end we have Jesus and the disciples just after the last supper singing a hymn.

One of the issues I have is that there is NOT a single OT prophet who forbade music, quite the opposite as it was often commanded. Yet, in Islam which came much much later we have your scholars (although there is nothing in there Qu'ran) saying the opposite - are then we to assume that they in some way outrank Moses (and indeed the Qu'ran) and that God after a wait of perhaps 2,500 years from Abraham changed his mind - it does not make sense does it?

I see one argument used is that Music leads to sin but that is such a hopelessly puerile argument that it is in my view worthless. Almost anything can lead to sin: football, sex, food so why single out music. Let me give an example, it is said that As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, i:304, quoting at-Tabari and al-Baihaqi in the Shu'ab al-Iman. Narrated by Aus ath-thaquafi recalls the Prophet saying

"A person's recitation without the aid of a written copy elicits a reward of a thousand degrees, but his recitation using a written copy double that reward to two thousand".

Now setting aside what this reward means this seems to indicate that any reading of the Qu'ran brings blessing. But of course it cannot mean that else in the recent film fitna, a highly critical attack on Islam, where Qu'ran recitation is used one can hardly argue that those who read the words were blessed by God. It follows that if we argue that something might lead to sin so it should be forbidden then I have just demonstrated that even the most holy can be misused.

Bro i never got into the rationality of the decision or ruling.But i was just pointing out that can't you just forego one small thing for the benefit of doubt ?

 

[Hugo]

Do you not think God knows what is good (or rather, best) for us?

Yes. However, I was not speaking of that as such but about things in the world that are good. Now it may be that you have your own definition of what is a 'good' but for me it is something that has value and therefore we want to create it or preserve it. For example, social cohesion is a good, it has value and sometimes we need to create it and certainly we might want to preserve it.

But perhaps the import of you question was that God knows best about music and I am sure that is correct? But there is nothing in the Qu'ran that forbids music and if you search the hadith it is very hard to find anything but what I would call, without wanting to be disrespectful, anecdotes. Biblically, as I have said elsewhere we find wholehearted support for instrumental music and singling and it even goes as far as saying that the whole creation sings in praise of God.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

In regards to the music issue, i think, on a 'comparative religion' forum it's best not even to bring up the topic of music for a couple of reasons.

1. In traditional understanding, Sacred law was not revealed to the companions of Muhammad [saas] until they firmly grasped Tawhid, social justice, the articles of faith, the concept of heaven and hell, etc. This is the companions, so, certainly it would be wise to deal with non-Muslims in the same fashion.

2. Music is a debated issue among muslims, and we should stick to issues that are a little less debated, such as Tawhid, the perfection of Qu'ran, messengership of Muhammad [saas], etc.

3. No one has ever become Muslim after hearing that music was haraam, but some people may avoid becoming Muslim if they hear music is haraam, because we live in such times of fitnah and jahaliyah. It is better for someone to be a Muslim who listens to music, than a non-Muslim who listens to music.

4. If Allah [swt] intends to guide a person, then when they become Muslim, they will not be righteous overnight. Maybe they will love music more than anything when they first become Muslim, but as their heart is fulfilled more and more by the deen over the years, a time will come when they will most likely leave off of it anyways, whether they consider it haraam or not.

 

[Supreme]

May I ask, why are beards considered so important in Islam (and Judaism)?

Many thanks.

 

[Hugo]

In regards to the music issue, i think, on a 'comparative religion' forum it's best not even to bring up the topic of music for a couple of reasons.

1. In traditional understanding, Sacred law was not revealed to the companions of Muhammad [saas] until they firmly grasped Tawhid, social justice, the articles of faith, the concept of heaven and hell, etc. This is the companions, so, certainly it would be wise to deal with non-Muslims in the same fashion.

I cannot follow what you are saying here because you assume that a non-Muslim knows nothing or little about sacred law and that is a false assumption. Also, one does not have to know the whole law to become a Muslim - that would be a life times study.

2. Music is a debated issue among muslims, and we should stick to issues that are a little less debated, such as Tawhid, the perfection of Qu'ran, messengership of Muhammad [saas], etc.

3. No one has ever become Muslim after hearing that music was haraam, but some people may avoid becoming Muslim if they hear music is haraam, because we live in such times of fitnah and jahaliyah. It is better for someone to be a Muslim who listens to music, than a non-Muslim who listens to music.

Has there ever been a time when there was not unbelief, when one has to fight for ones faith in hopefully peaceful manners?

4. If Allah [swt] intends to guide a person, then when they become Muslim, they will not be righteous overnight. Maybe they will love music more than anything when they first become Muslim, but as their heart is fulfilled more and more by the deen over the years, a time will come when they will most likely leave off of it anyways, whether they consider it haraam or not.

I find it an odd concept that we become more righteous - we can follow God and do good works but mercy belongs to God not any righteousness we might attain. Why is that a righteous person would give up music - I see no logic in that at all and Prophet David throughout the Psalms urges us to sing praises to God as much as we can. There is nowhere in the Qu'ran or the Bible where we are told that giving up music is a righteous acts or brings blessing - so why do you think that?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I find it an odd concept that we become more righteous - we can follow God and do good works but mercy belongs to God not any righteousness we might attain.

Actually that particular aspect of Islam is not so different from the Christian idea of sanctification in which one is first declared justified (and therefore righteous) by God, but continues to grow in righteousness going on to perfection, in accordance with the scriptures.

 

[Hugo]

Actually that particular aspect of Islam is not so different from the Christian idea of sanctification in which one is first declared justified (and therefore righteous) by God, but continues to grow in righteousness going on to perfection, in accordance with the scriptures.

Yes totally agree but I read the original message (perhaps wrongly) as implying that we can win favour or store up points with God by doing good when from a Christian perspective God has gifted to us his righteousness through faith in Jesus as you say. Driven by that gift we strive to follows his example and in that sense we are sanctified daily through repentance and good works.

Though when we come before God eventually we like Job will have nothing to say or claim about our own righteousness.