Things in Islam I am curious about...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

perfect= of its kind and without defect or blemish (which the Quran is and more)!

What is the purpose of this banality?

As you can see from this definition, the word 'perfect' carries within it the concept of completeness, which is a condition the Qur'an clearly cannot satisfy, given the amount of supplementary literature it requires.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


What is the purpose of this banality?

What is the purpose of gauging in a dialogue about a book you yourself have admitted not to have read, either in a translated form or original tongue? compounded by the fact that the query is actually aimed at Muslims not your personal input.. do you want to talk about banality you can fill compendiums!

As you can see from this definition, the word 'perfect' carries within it the concept of completeness, which is a condition the Qur'an clearly cannot satisfy, given the amount of supplementary literature it requires.

Peace

How is the Quran incomplete? you have failed to elucidate that for us!


p.s: by the way you should take your own advise and scram, as I truly reply back to you in a state of utter revolt-- not only are you ignorant of most topics you engage (as far as Islam is concerned) but you have the most vile attitude toward the religion and its adherents, it is beyond me why you remain here for so long only to peddle your all too frequent complaints in that tedious deadening style of yours.. it is obvious that you don't like the religion nor the majority of Muslims given your all too frequent exasperation and less than stellar light with which you have described the alleged Muslim students in your class.. I can only pity them having you as an instructor.. perhaps as the other member here suggested and especially in your case, they'd be better off with a book and some private time to digest it!

 

[Supreme]

Great question !

The hadeeth (sunnah in general) serves as an explanation and as a practical application of the Qur'an. For example : Allah says "Wa aqimou a'salat", meaning : "Do the prayer the best way".
But the way how to do the prayer is explaned in Hadeeth of prophet Muhammed (s.a.w), and his sunnah.

The qu'ran is made in the best concise and eloquant way (otherwise it will be infinite, and hard to learn). And some statements in the qur'an could require explanation from hadith and sunnah.

I understand that. But the point of my question is this: a perfect revelation would already have covered how to perform essential acts such as Salat. A perfect revelation would need no further explanation, as it is self explantory to most, if not all who follow its message. A perfect revelation needs no innovations from the messenger themselves.

God says in holy Quran that He sent Muhammed pbuh as a mercy for all. Messenger of God taught the world how to obey God and follow the right path . God told us to obey His messenger . So , when God ordered us to worship Him , Prophet pbuh taught us how to do it ; God told us to give Zakat , Prophet pbut taught us how to give it etc etc..

I understand that Muslims look upon Muhammed as a perfect human being. But my point is this: the revelation would have covered all this. If anything was worth mentioning in detail, such as worship and Zakat, it would be included in the revelation, assuming the revelation were perfect.

The ahadith are not the only supplementary texts the Qur'an requires. Many tafsirs exist to provide further explanation, as well as seerah and other types of text. The Qur'anic literature is vast, and therefore to say that the Qur'an is perfect by itself is a very strange claim indeed.

Indeed.

As you can see from this definition, the word 'perfect' carries within it the concept of completeness, which is a condition the Qur'an clearly cannot satisfy, given the amount of supplementary literature it requires.

Again, I agree. I am rather skeptical on these issues. A perfect revelation would include instructions on how to practise the religion in detail and then some, would it not? As it is, the Quran, to an outsider at least, is evidently incomplete by the amount of literature required to supplement it. Indeed, many things that are essential to Islam are not even to be found in the Quran, but exclusively in the Hadith.

 

[Uthman]

The Sunnah (which is recorded in the ahadeeth) is also a source of revelation and it was never intended by Allah that the Qur'an be the only source of guidance. The main difference between the Sunnah and the Qur'an is that the Qur'an is from Allah in both wording and meaning whereas the Sunnah is from Allah in meaning but the wording is from the Prophet saws.

 

[Supreme]

The Sunnah (which is recorded in the ahadeeth) is also a source of revelation and it was never intended by Allah that the Qur'an be the only source of guidance. The main difference between the Sunnah and the Qur'an is that the Qur'an is from Allah in both wording and meaning whereas the Sunnah is from Allah in meaning but the wording is from the Prophet saws.

OK, OK, so it's like this:

The Quran is the exact words of God.
The Hadith are God inspired words, delivered from the Prophet. I suppose, as a Christian, we see the Bible in the same way as Muslims see the Hadith. But, Uthman, God could have extended the Quran and covered all the aspects and topics of the Hadith in His own breath without having Muhammed taking God's revelation and putting it into his own words, surely?

Also, I'm pleased this thread is finally on topic. We are finally asking questions about Islam, and learning.

 

[Uthman]

OK, OK, so it's like this:

The Quran is the exact words of God.
The Hadith are God inspired words, delivered from the Prophet.

That's correct.

But, Uthman, God could have extended the Quran and covered all the aspects and topics of the Hadith in His own breath without having Muhammed taking God's revelation and putting it into his own words, surely?

He could have done that, yes.

Also, I'm pleased this thread is finally on topic.

Me too! I'd almost given up moderating this thread.

 

[جوري]

Every man, after Adam is created from clots of blood (alaq).


!

asslamu 3lykoum wr wb akhi.. I don't know if you speak Arabic or not but 3laqa doesn't mean clot of blood.. whoever translated did it wrong..
علقة= n. leech


http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

so leech like which describes one of the stages of human embryology grossly

as per my previous post with br. Ansar's very detailed account of the entire human creation and development in the Quran.. where there are no contradictions but also describes the human embryology as we know modern day to the letter.

 

[Insaanah]

But, Uthman, God could have extended the Quran and covered all the aspects and topics of the Hadith in His own breath without having Muhammed taking God's revelation and putting it into his own words, surely?

I am not Uthman as you will notice, and I hope you don't mind if I elaborate slightly.

There are many, many ahadeeth (recorded actions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him), covering a myriad of topics. Had Allah done that, if they were all in one volume as part of the Qur'an, the book would be too wide to fit on a shelf, and certainly too heavy for anyone to pick up!

Also, we humans would have complained that we need a human to show us how to apply certain rules. That's why we have further details, and have the examples, and instances of things that happened recorded in the hadeeth to teach us by practical human example, showing us how rules and laws were applied and should be applied. So we've not just been told, "Don't do this, this is wrong", and subsequently been left to our own devices. We've been shown how to avoid it happening and what to do if it happens.

Allah is All-Wise and knows how much human beings can take and digest, and how best to deliver His guidance. So He delivered His message through a combination of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

without having Muhammed taking God's revelation and putting it into his own words, surely??

Just to clarify, he didn't take a revelation of Allah's and decide of his own volition to put it into his own words. The sunnah is a type of revelation from God. He was divinely inspired as to the message, the wording and how he spoke to humans was up to him, he was a human being, and to apply practical examples you need humans talking to humans.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

Peace.

 

[جوري]

I am not Uthman as you will notice, and I hope you don't mind if I elaborate slightly.

There are many, many ahadeeth (recorded actions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him), covering a myriad of topics. Had Allah done that, if they were all in one volume as part of the Qur'an, the book would be too wide to fit on a shelf, and certainly too heavy for anyone to pick up!

Also, we humans would have complained that we need a human to show us how to apply certain rules. That's why we have further details, and have the examples, and instances of things that happened recorded in the hadeeth to teach us by practical human example, showing us how rules and laws were applied and should be applied. So we've not just been told, "Don't do this, this is wrong", and subsequently been left to our own devices. We've been shown how to avoid it happening and what to do if it happens.

Allah is All-Wise and knows how much human beings can take and digest, and how best to deliver His guidance. So He delivered His message through a combination of the Qur'an and Sunnah.


Just to clarify, he didn't take a revelation of Allah's and decide of his own volition to put it into his own words. The sunnah is a type of revelation from God. He was divinely inspired as to the message, the wording and how he spoke to humans was up to him, he was a human being, and to apply practical examples you need humans talking to humans.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

Peace.

Sob7an Allah.. surely Allah swt has described this psychology of mankind and an answer to these questions in three verses in suret al-kahf.. and if I may add just the mere difference between the style of the quran and that of ahadith is enough evidence in my opinion to the linguistic miracle of the book, and as many great scholars once noted, Mohammed's prophethood would have been established if he'd brought us only the sunnah without the grand miracle of the Quran.

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:54] And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:109] Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help.[/SIZE]


al7mdlillah that all is covered in a style and eloquence and amount so that all Muslims can memorize and utilize for good!

 

[Supreme]

I am not Uthman as you will notice, and I hope you don't mind if I elaborate slightly.

There are many, many ahadeeth (recorded actions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him), covering a myriad of topics. Had Allah done that, if they were all in one volume as part of the Qur'an, the book would be too wide to fit on a shelf, and certainly too heavy for anyone to pick up!

Also, we humans would have complained that we need a human to show us how to apply certain rules. That's why we have further details, and have the examples, and instances of things that happened recorded in the hadeeth to teach us by practical human example, showing us how rules and laws were applied and should be applied. So we've not just been told, "Don't do this, this is wrong", and subsequently been left to our own devices. We've been shown how to avoid it happening and what to do if it happens.

Peace.

That is indeed a satisfactory answer. In fact, it makes even more sense than the explanation Br Uthman gave.

 

[Supreme]

OK, another question:

Why is Muhammed the final prophet? Basically, why doesn't God want to send prophets anymore? Why is having a final prophet at all necessary? Is it better to have one last prophet or an eternal cycle of prophets?

 

[Banu_Hashim]

I'm sure others more knowledgable can give you a detailed answer, but to answer your question in short; Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is (as it is described in the Qur'an) a "mercy to all mankind". The prophets before him were sent to various nations and tribes but Muhammad (SAWS) on the other hand is a messenger to all of humanity and Allah has made a promise in the Qur'an itself that it will stand the test of time and be a message for the people of this earth until the Day of Judgement.

He is the seal of prophets, a line of prophets starting with Aadam (peace be upon him).

 

[Banu_Hashim]

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:109] Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help.[/SIZE]

SubhaanAllah! One of my favourite quotes from the Qur'an. The Balaagha of the Qur'an is mind blowing.

 

[marwen]

asslamu 3lykoum wr wb akhi.. I don't know if you speak Arabic or not but 3laqa doesn't mean clot of blood.. whoever translated did it wrong..

Yes I'm sure you're right sister. Indeed I was referring to the original arabic verse : "Iqr'a bismi rabbika alladhi khalaq. Khalaqal l'insana min alaq." I don't know why the translation given choose the term "clots of blood" as synonym of 'alaq' (leech as you mentioned) :/ it must be wrong.
Maybe I used unintentionally his translation term "clots of blod", but it's wrong, I should use the word leech instead.

 

[جوري]

it is indeed.. I love this recitation by sheikh faisal ar-rashood of suret al-kahf

as for prophet Mohammed is the final prophet.. the message is preserved, transcendent and applicable to all people of all times..

 

[جوري]

Yes I'm sure you're right sister. Indeed I was referring to the original arabic verse : "Iqr'a bismi rabbika alladhi khalaq. Khalaqal l'insana min alaq." I don't know why the translation given choose the term "clots of blood" as synonym of 'alaq' (leech as you mentioned) :/ it must be wrong.
Maybe I used unintentionally his translation term "clots of blod", but it's wrong, I should use the word leech instead.

I have to appreciate the monumental effort of the translators who brought the Quran to the English speaking population. Marmaduke Pickthal for instance was a convert himself without such a good grip on Arabic, still he did a great job masha'Allah

عَلَقٍ as per sura translates to:
v. hang, hang up, dangle, hinge, suspend, sling, string up, swing, pin out, shelve, stop, rest, annotate, commentate, gloss, comment


n. leech

http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

I believe again meant to describe the early embryological stage of human development where the embryo resembles a leech clinging -- the embryonic chorion to maternal endometrium..

and Allah swt knows best

 

[Banu_Hashim]

^^
Beautiful mashaAllah.

Have you heard this recitation of Surah Kahf by Salah al-Hashem?

 

[جوري]

no it is beautiful.. is he Egyptian? He has a hint of Egyptian accent to him I usually prefer gulf area readers I love the way Arabic rolls off their tongue so poetically ..

 

[Banu_Hashim]

I think he's kuwaiti. Yeah, I know what you mean... it adds to the beauty of the Qur'an.

What gives him his slight egyptain accent? (just out of interest) I didnt know people could have regional dialects when reciting Qur'aan.

 

[marwen]

OK, another question:
Why is Muhammed the final prophet? Basically, why doesn't God want to send prophets anymore? Why is having a final prophet at all necessary? Is it better to have one last prophet or an eternal cycle of prophets?

As a muslim, I can tell you the qur'an says that and the Prophet Muhammed says that. That's sufficient for me because I admit that the qur'an and the Prophet paroles are truth.
Why should Muhammed be the last prophet ? I can't tell you much. It's Allah's will : may be Allah knows that his last message (Islam/Qur'an..) will be enough for humans till the end of the world, and that he knows it will be useless to send another message/prophet. You know Allah's will is not always explainable : why we are created with tow orifices in the nose, won't it be enough to have just one nasal orifice? : that's Allah's will. May be we find the reason in the future, but as believers we have to accept Allah's will/order.

Hope this helps.