Things in Islam I am curious about...

[syed_z]

Woodrow usually does a fair job of explaining himself, but as he made the statement "The Qur'an is complete and requires no change nor is any change permitted" to which you made the above query while responding to a post I made with regard to the Qur'an, I think it is only fair to note that the origin of that which I posted was originally written with regard to the Bible by conservative Christians who would most definitely hold that the Bible was complete and required no change.

I don't think they met to imply that everything was contained in the Bible, only that the Bible did not lack anything which needed to be said with regard to God, faith, or salvation. They would also assert that it was complete in that after its compilation there would be no need of any further additions.

I would suppose that Muslims views with regard to the Qur'an would assume it to be complete (in much the same way that Christians do) in at least those two ways. Perhaps they might identify others as well. I'll let Muslims clarify that, but I just want to note that the language of viewing one's sacred text as complete is something shared by both Muslim and Christian with regard to the Qur'an and the Bible, respectively.

The only way to see whether which book has the Ability to solve the Problems of Humanity, is the only way to come to conclusion which book should be followed as Guidance... we should not forget that Quran i.e the Final Testament is a word of God which was sent to the entire human race, while the earlier Old and New Testaments were only addressed to the Children of Israel....

Muhammad (Saw) is called in the Quran as the Mercy For All Mankind and the Seal of the Prophets.... which means all generations till the End of the World.... but to what extent are these words of the Quran really correct ? The only way to see is by listing all the Ideals and Standards of Excellence which are accepted by enlightened sections of Humanity and see whether they exist in the Bible or the Quran ? also very important.... that what is the Origin of all such Ideals and values as accepted by mankind and whether they did exist in the Pre Islamic Times or whether they were came to be known to the World, after the Islamic Revolution in Arabia ?


If we were to reach the conclusion that all such present day set of ideals and values which is considered worthy for a civilized nation to adopt and accept were for the 1st time revealed in Islam, then we should come to the conclusion that the Islamic ideals are still alive, even though they were given to the world, 1400 years back which then proves that Quran is even today the acceptable Gospel.


Negatively if it could be shown that the principles or set of standards of excellence as given by the teachings Of Islam, were outdated or if the values and ideas gained in modern times are absent in the Quran and mankind has learned something new, then we can say that the Quran is a book out of date.




If we were to put the Ideals and Values in a list and see whether such would be accepted as the best norms for a civilized society in 21st century....


1. Equality, dignity and brotherhood of man.
2. Value of universal education with emphasis on spirit of free inquiry and importance of scientific knowledge.
3. Practice of religious tolerance.
4. Liberation of the woman and her spiritual equality with man.
5. Freedom from slavery and exploitation of all kinds.
6. Dignity of manual labor.
7. Integration of mankind in a feeling of oneness irrespective of their differences in race and color.
8. The devaluation of arrogance and pride based on superiority of race, color, wealth, etc and the founding of society on principle of Justice.
9. Rejection of the philosophy of asceticism.


Each one of these said above, are included in the Injunctions of Quran and they are practically shown in the Life of Prophet Muhammad (Saw)....


Grace Seeker, i am sure that we can put to test the above norms and see whether they exist in the Quran or in the Bible ....i would suggest that if you can prove it to me that above Norms are to be found in the Bible .... all of them... then we can see that Relating to Quran by Muslims or the Bible by Christians in discussions is useless because both are following the EXACT same things....

BUT IF you cannot prove me that Bible is also a complete Code of Life for each individual to practice individually and it can be implemented on a State Level in a Modern Age, then there is NO point of telling Muslims to put the Quran to the Test, because the Quran does NOT only speak of the Life of the Hereafter or the Belief of Paradise and Hell and Angels, rather it includes a Complete Code of Life that can be implemented Individually and Collectively in a society.....

Give you an example.... including my request to compare what Quran has to offer to the Modern world and Bible has to offer.... just by looking at the Life of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Life of Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) or other Biblical Prophets we can easily figure out whose life could be best to follow.... say for example a married person... ?

Is there any Example for a Married person to adopt in the Life of Jesus (pbuh) ? Similarly is there an example for a poor person in the Life of Prophet King Solomon (pbuh) ? Muhammad's Life example can be followed by any one, a Judge, A Husband, A Father, A Ruler, A poor person, a Business Man, a Soldier, an Army General... etc...

So feel free to Put to test the Above Norms whenever you are ready ?

 

[syed_z]

George Bernard Shaw said

" I have always upheld the Religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only Religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating the capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man - and in my opinion far from being anit-Christ, he must be called Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of Today."

G.B Shaw, The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol 1, No. 8, 1936.

 

[Hugo]

George Bernard Shaw said
" I have always upheld the Religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only Religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating the capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man - and in my opinion far from being anit-Christ, he must be called Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of Today."

G.B Shaw, The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol 1, No. 8, 1936.

This is another one of the quotes that gets circulated but have a look in any index to see if you can find it and your search will be fruitless - try it and it will turn up all over the place but never as the source. Of course I accept that proving something is not there is impossible for obvious reasons.

 

[aadil77]

This is another one of the quotes that gets circulated but have a look in any index to see if you can find it and your search will be fruitless - try it and it will turn up all over the place but never as the source. Of course I accept that proving something is not there is impossible because for obvious reasons.

I just searched for it, can't seem to find anything accept people looking for the same book - strange

 

[syed_z]

This is another one of the quotes that gets circulated but have a look in any index to see if you can find it and your search will be fruitless - try it and it will turn up all over the place but never as the source. Of course I accept that proving something is not there is impossible because for obvious reasons.

(Al Quran 17:81) .."The Truth has come, and falsehood has vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish."


hmm.. strange you and others like you, havent commented on Post 2141... and commented on this... Truth is always to stay and Falsehood is bound to perish.... never will you be successful on the Islamic Forums with your Falsehood... rather your own Falsehood will engulf you and you will never be successful ... rather keep wasting your time on Islamic Forums arguing fruitlessly with those who Hold on to the Truth, in the end , you would have wasted this life arguing against the Truth ... and you will also loose in the Hereafter... Truth Comes from God... Islam is the Truth...

 

[Hiroshi]

If only you apply let's say, a fraction (maybe 0.00001%) of the level of your rigorous demands for evidence that The Qur'an is indeed from God and apply that to the bible, surely you would have left christianity long time ago, because simply as it has been shown numerous times in this board, the integrity and authenticity of the bible crumble upon itself when being put under magnifying glass.


Actually, thanks to this latest "question" from you, it makes me think to create a thread which plainly shows which holy scripture is from God (The Qur'an) and which holy scripture (the bible) has been edited by authors inspired by satan/devil. I will do it one of these days.

You seem to be saying that Satan and men can change the written word of God. But Surah 18:27 says: "none can change His Words".

 

[Hugo]

You forget that Muhamma, sall-Allahu alayhi wa salam ,is sent to explain teh Qur'aan (sahih hadeeths). Argue this: The Sunna is the Qur'aan and the Qur'aan is the Sunna. If something is not in the Qur'aan, t is in the Sunna.

Interesting, so every word and action of the prophet is to be followed is that what you are saying? But if its in the Qu'ran why do we need the Sunna, surely God very own words cannot be less than enough?

 

[Hugo]

It is interesting that you are still doing this after all these years on board and after being involved in countless threads about evidence that the Qur'an is from Allah SWT, where it has been shown to you that there is no way that prophet Muhammad SAW fabricated the Qur'an and attributed it to God, except that indeed the Qur'an is directly from God. If only you apply let's say, a fraction (maybe 0.00001%) of the level of your rigorous demands for evidence that The Qur'an is indeed from God and apply that to the bible, surely you would have left christianity long time ago, because simply as it has been shown numerous times in this board, the integrity and authenticity of the bible crumble upon itself when being put under magnifying glass.

Can you tell us what you would regard as rigorous effort, what would I have to do and have you expended the same effort on for example the Bible because if you demand such effort you would want to look at all the evidence would you not?

Actually, thanks to this latest "question" from you, it makes me think to create a thread which plainly shows which holy scripture is from God (The Qur'an) and which holy scripture (the bible) has been edited by authors inspired by satan/devil. I will do it one of these days.

No one as far as I know disputes that the Bible was edited. But so was the Qu'ran by any reasonable definition of the word. Tradition tells us that two collections (at least) were made by Zayd ibn Thabit: we are told he collected verses of the Qu'ran from leaves and bones and the memories of men - how the collection ended up we don't know but it was left in the possession of one of the prophets wives and is now lost. The second and perhaps more famous collection was under Uthman and we are told that for each verse to be recorded it had to have two reliable witnesses so again Zaid was editing the Qu'ran. It is said that if you wanted to know anything about the Qu'ran that one went to Zaid so if he then needed confirmation it seems obvious he was editing as one presumes that some verses brought to him were accepted and some not. Also the order of the suras was not decided until long after the prophets death and of course we have what I would regard as oddities such as the first verses that were revealed are not in the first chapter are they? But again as far as I know no complete Utham Qu'ran now exists.

 

[Ramadhan]

You seem to be saying that Satan and men can change the written word of God. But Surah 18:27 says: "none can change His Words".

That's right.
QS. 18:27
And recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is none who can change His words. And you will not find, besides Him, any refuge.

The Qur'an is His words, and the Qur'an has never (been) changed since its revelation even though devil and men have been trying to do so.
This is a fact that the Qur's is self evidenced/proofed and self-reference.

So, are you now going to stop worshipping man, and start worshipping The One God?

 

[Hiroshi]

That's right.
QS. 18:27
And recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is none who can change His words. And you will not find, besides Him, any refuge.

The Qur'an is His words, and the Qur'an has never (been) changed since its revelation even though devil and men have been trying to do so.
This is a fact that the Qur's is self evidenced/proofed and self-reference.

So, are you now going to stop worshipping man, and start worshipping The One God?

But do Muslims believe that the Bible has never been the word of God? Surely Surah 5:46 says that the Torah and Gospel give "guidance and light" from God.

 

[Vigno]

Salamu Alekum

When Allah speaks of Torah and Engeel in the Quran, it refers to the "REAL" copies of the books not ones updated 1 million times by anyone who saw something they didn't like. I wonder if the real copies still exist, probably they hid or burnt them to hide the truth. How ignorant...But if anyone is having a bright enough heart to think ( the human mind is actually in the heart) then they would know what falsehood is and what the truth is.

 

[Zafran]

Interesting, so every word and action of the prophet is to be followed is that what you are saying? But if its in the Qu'ran why do we need the Sunna, surely God very own words cannot be less than enough?

No not EVERY WORD AND ACTION just the ones part of the sunnah. The Quran tells us to follow the prophet pbuh.

 

[Zafran]

The second and perhaps more famous collection was under Uthman and we are told that for each verse to be recorded it had to have two reliable witnesses so again Zaid was editing the Qu'ran.

where,when,how did Zaid Ibn Thabit (ra) edit the Quran? You do know this is the same person who wrote the Quran down on various materials in the life time of the prophet pbuh according to tradition? The prophet would dictate and teach him the Quran and then would check what Zaid Ibn Thabit (ra) would read back to the prophet what he wrote.

No one as far as I know disputes that the Bible was edited

are you joking? the 66 book bible is clear proof of editing Just open up any catholic or non catholic bible. What is it 66 or 73? Pin point editing.

 

[Hiroshi]

Salamu Alekum

When Allah speaks of Torah and Engeel in the Quran, it refers to the "REAL" copies of the books not ones updated 1 million times by anyone who saw something they didn't like. I wonder if the real copies still exist, probably they hid or burnt them to hide the truth. How ignorant...But if anyone is having a bright enough heart to think ( the human mind is actually in the heart) then they would know what falsehood is and what the truth is.

Hi Vigno.

I see where you are coming from. But firstly, this is again claiming that Satan and the hand of man have changed the written word of God and Surah 18:27 says that this is not possible.

And secondly, when the Qur'an speaks of the Torah and Engeel it must mean the scriptures that existed at the time of the rise of Islam. Surah 10:94 even directs Muhammed to make enquiry of those who have these scriptures: "If you have any doubt regarding what is revealed to you from your Lord, then ask those who read the previous scripture."

And since that time, there can have been no destructive corruption of these writings such as you describe because we have preserved today copies of them that we can examine dating back to then and even to earlier periods.

 

[Vigno]

Asalamu Alekum

Dear hiroshi,
I just want to comment on the first and last point you mentioned.
To begin with, it is merely an easy task to erase the contents of books and keep the date valid. As a matter of fact it is written in the Quran that some people change what is in the book so that others think its from the book while it is not and they say it is from God and and its not. Prophet Isa (Jesus) alahi asalam said to his people that there will be a Prophet after him called Ahmed ( another name for Prophet Mohammed alaihi asalatu wa asalam), so how come no christian says anything about that now? Isn't it because somethings are being hidden so that people don't see the truth.
You are welcome to give any further comment.
Thank you

 

[Hugo]

That's right. QS. 18:27
And recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is none who can change His words. And you will not find, besides Him, any refuge.

The Qur'an is His words, and the Qur'an has never (been) changed since its revelation even though devil and men have been trying to do so.
This is a fact that the Qur's is self evidenced/proofed and self-reference.
So, are you now going to stop worshipping man, and start worshipping The One God?

Just a question but self-referencing always implies we end up with a paradox?

 

[Hugo]

Asalamu AlekumDear hiroshi,
I just want to comment on the first and last point you mentioned.
To begin with, it is merely an easy task to erase the contents of books and keep the date valid. As a matter of fact it is written in the Quran that some people change what is in the book so that others think its from the book while it is not and they say it is from God and and its not. Prophet Isa (Jesus) alahi asalam said to his people that there will be a Prophet after him called Ahmed ( another name for Prophet Mohammed alaihi asalatu wa asalam), so how come no christian says anything about that now? Isn't it because somethings are being hidden so that people don't see the truth.
You are welcome to give any further comment.
Thank you

Can you give use any references for this claim about Jesus?

 

[Vigno]

Asalamu Alekum

Yes sure, it is written in the Quran.
The Quran says:
And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
(Quran 61:6)

 

[Hiroshi]

Asalamu Alekum

Dear hiroshi,
I just want to comment on the first and last point you mentioned.
To begin with, it is merely an easy task to erase the contents of books and keep the date valid. As a matter of fact it is written in the Quran that some people change what is in the book so that others think its from the book while it is not and they say it is from God and and its not. Prophet Isa (Jesus) alahi asalam said to his people that there will be a Prophet after him called Ahmed ( another name for Prophet Mohammed alaihi asalatu wa asalam), so how come no christian says anything about that now? Isn't it because somethings are being hidden so that people don't see the truth.
You are welcome to give any further comment.
Thank you

Thank you Vigno.

I am fully aware that there are variances in the readings of some Bible manuscripts. There are on occasion copyist errors. And sometimes, much more rarely but more serious, there are deliberate attempts to introduce false ideas into the text such as at 1 John 5:7 and Mark 16:9-20.

But these things fail to corrupt the Bible. Why? Because the writings of the scriptures are handed down over long ages of history and are widely distributed. It is quite easy to see where a recently copied manuscript has a false reading when older and more reliable manuscripts show the true original reading. And in the vast majority of cases, any variance in the writings has no bearing on any serious doctrinal teaching.

The truth is that copyists, particularly of the Hebrew writings, were incredibly meticulous when it came to copying the sacred scriptures. They even counted the number of letters in the book in case one was missed out. And if a single error was found then the entire copy would be destroyed.

The book of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls was reportedly almost no different to a copy of the manuscript made 1,000 years later. There had been merely the addition of a word or a slight variance in spelling but otherwise no change.

I fail to see the wholesale corruption and chaos that Muslims seem to believe comprises the Bible that we have in our hands today.

 

[Woodrow]

Thank you Vigno.

I am fully aware that there are variances in the readings of some Bible manuscripts. There are on occasion copyist errors. And sometimes, much more rarely but more serious, there are deliberate attempts to introduce false ideas into the text such as at 1 John 5:7 and Mark 16:9-20.

But these things fail to corrupt the Bible. Why? Because the writings of the scriptures are handed down over long ages of history and are widely distributed. It is quite easy to see where a recently copied manuscript has a false reading when older and more reliable manuscripts show the true original reading. And in the vast majority of cases, any variance in the writings has no bearing on any serious doctrinal teaching.

The truth is that copyists, particularly of the Hebrew writings, were incredibly meticulous when it came to copying the sacred scriptures. They even counted the number of letters in the book in case one was missed out. And if a single error was found then the entire copy would be destroyed.

The book of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls was reportedly almost no different to a copy of the manuscript made 1,000 years later. There had been merely the addition of a word or a slight variance in spelling but otherwise no change.

I fail to see the wholesale corruption and chaos that Muslims seem to believe comprises the Bible that we have in our hands today.

Peace Hiroshi,

Actually the view of the OT by both Muslims and Christians id nearly identical. It is not so much of a question of errors or ommissions it is more in line with being it is not a complete revelation and was for specific people of a specific time. T ocomplete the word Jesus(PBUH) was given the injil to pass on to the people. Here is were we see the problem.

The NT is basically the words of man and their impression of who Jesus(PBUH) is, it contains very little if any actual revelation from God(SWT) except possibly in some of the direct quotes from Jesus(PBUH). This is just one of the reasons we believe the Injil was not preserved and that the NT is not the actual words of God(SWT). Not being the direct revelation it is subject to Human error and possibly even fraudulent information being added into it and passed off as being from God(SWT).

For these reasons we believe the Injil was not passed on and over time we could no longer recognize what may or may not be the Injil or even from the Injil. For this reason a final Prophet was needed to restore what was lost and or added/changed. This was the reason it was necessary for the Qur'an to be sent.

None of the authors of the NT are believed to be Prophets(PBUT) by either Muslims, Christians or Jews. If we know they are not Prophets, where is the justification to assume the books are from God(swt)? If these are not the direct words from God(swt) they are the words of man and as such subject to error, change and mistranslation/misinterpretations.

The NT is a collection of alleged eyewitness accounts of men and it is well known that eye witnesses can be mistaken about what they report to have seen. The NT is not the Injil (Gospel) that was revealed to Jesus(as). The addition of the writings of Paul, tend to remove any credability of what may have been true. Also the methodology as to the choosing, in the third century, of what and whose writings should be considered true and which should be considered agnostic shows much favoritism in favor of that which supported ancient Greek beliefs and not the beliefs of the monotheistic believers descended from Ibrahim(PBUH)