Things in Islam I am curious about...

Sorry I don't deal in terms of death:)
Faith is a matter of love or it is no faith but superstition and love gives life always. God wants you alive always and this is my faith. I want you alive always.

Haha okay you are harmless, but I'd rather have the TRUTH than LOVE thing
 
Haha okay you are harmless, but I'd rather have the TRUTH than LOVE thing

Then please help me to know which of these is true:


Did the prophet not say: "I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my progeny. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond (in the hereafter)."?

I am told that the above hadeeth is supported by:
1. al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, alMustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut), volume 3, pages 109-110, 148, and 533) where he expressly states that the tradition is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim?
2. Muslim, al-Sahih, (English translation), book 031, numbers 5920-3?
3. al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, volume 5, pages 621-2, numbers 3786 and 3788; volume 2, page 219?
4. al-Nasa'i, Khasa'is’Ali ibn Abi Talib, hadith number 79?

Did the prophet not also say: "I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray."?

I am told that he said this in his final sermon.

Did the prophet leave behind 2 or 3 things? Depending on which of the above is the TRUTH that is to be followed I understand that it would be the Book of Allah (i.e. the Qur'an) and then either the Sunnah and/or his progeny. But which?
 
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Salam Mr Grace Seeker

I'd tell you what, you see we all know that future is not visible to us, who knows if you are gonna be a good Muslim one day and preach to many and contribute big to ISLAM more than anyone in this forum
for this sake I will entertain you, pls do not think I am running away from your questions
I am honest person and I dont like pretenders so here I am with my proposal but 1st let me explain myside

I am new convert and even I am already year being Muslim, just lately I have truly live as a better Muslim,
So in Islam there is no flowery words or magic, I was a Christian /Atheist and converting to Islam didnt immediately changed my life 360degree, it wasnt so easy altho i didnt miss 5day prayer (+all the basic requirements) however they are not on time all the time, but indeed it is million times better than me not going to church for years
It's a slow process & alhamdollelah so far so good, never been this good actually,

I am currently busy with my 8hours duty and small business and studying Arabic,,,, being week of studying I just learned to write 3letters word and still confuse at times, so you see u really are hundred times clever than I

BACK TO My proposal, will your promise me with all your heart&MIND&your soul that IF I STUDY your questions and get you the correct Islamic answer, you will accept that it is the truth and nothing but the truth and you wont argue about it?
Or you will keep on being hard headed and dying to look if there is hidden agenda and try to turn things upset down and give me more questions that were already answered to you earlier, coz you see brother, i may not be clever but i am not ignorant, with thousand of your posts, tell me pls,, tell us what else you didnt ask, did any answer of our muslim bro and sis satisfy you in any way? i bet not, coz I SAID you are clever, very clever indeed, you hve your own mind and you have your right to blv whatever you wanted to blv, you can have hard or soft head whenver you wnt,
and im out of it, we are all out of it, each & all of us is responsible for anything in our lives

I read somewhere you are Minister, im not sure if that's you, If that's right, I dont care infact, in Islam we are all equal , incase you wonder why I am a little high blood with Minister

Or maybe a prime minister? OMG i should be nervous then, nah,i think that's a post about tony blair-ex PM so pls dont mind it
 
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Haha okay you are harmless, but I'd rather have the TRUTH than LOVE thing


Truth without Love does not exist. It is illusions of Truth or wishfull thinking. Separating truth from love is like separating light from the heat/energy that generates it. It is not possible. Truth shines from Love.
 
Truth without Love does not exist. It is illusions of Truth or wishfull thinking. Separating truth from love is like separating light from the heat/energy that generates it. It is not possible. Truth shines from Love.

hehe bro i didnt explain well didnt i
love i am talking about is love in christian religion - they said jesus was crucified for he love the world and he take all the responsbilities and pay for all the sins of humankind
i dont need that love, thats not love, that OA... Overr
 
hehe bro i didnt explain well didnt i
love i am talking about is love in christian religion - they said jesus was crucified for he love the world and he take all the responsbilities and pay for all the sins of humankind
i dont need that love, thats not love, that OA... Overr

Well, it is the same love.
 
i know, so i told you so
my friend i dont need such love
i need nothing but peace

LOVE can definitely MISGUIDE me

True love does not misguide anyone and it is the source of true peace.
Peace to you.
 
Salam Mr Grace Seeker

I'd tell you what, you see we all know that future is not visible to us, who knows if you are gonna be a good Muslim one day and preach to many and contribute big to ISLAM more than anyone in this forum
for this sake I will entertain you, pls do not think I am running away from your questions
I am honest person and I dont like pretenders so here I am with my proposal but 1st let me explain myside

I am new convert and even I am already year being Muslim, just lately I have truly live as a better Muslim,
So in Islam there is no flowery words or magic, I was a Christian /Atheist and converting to Islam didnt immediately changed my life 360degree, it wasnt so easy altho i didnt miss 5day prayer (+all the basic requirements) however they are not on time all the time, but indeed it is million times better than me not going to church for years
It's a slow process & alhamdollelah so far so good, never been this good actually,

I am currently busy with my 8hours duty and small business and studying Arabic,,,, being week of studying I just learned to write 3letters word and still confuse at times, so you see u really are hundred times clever than I

BACK TO My proposal, will your promise me with all your heart&MIND&your soul that IF I STUDY your questions and get you the correct Islamic answer, you will accept that it is the truth and nothing but the truth and you wont argue about it?
Or you will keep on being hard headed and dying to look if there is hidden agenda and try to turn things upset down and give me more questions that were already answered to you earlier, coz you see brother, i may not be clever but i am not ignorant, with thousand of your posts, tell me pls,, tell us what else you didnt ask, did any answer of our muslim bro and sis satisfy you in any way? i bet not, coz I SAID you are clever, very clever indeed, you hve your own mind and you have your right to blv whatever you wanted to blv, you can have hard or soft head whenver you wnt,
and im out of it, we are all out of it, each & all of us is responsible for anything in our lives

I read somewhere you are Minister, im not sure if that's you, If that's right, I dont care infact, in Islam we are all equal , incase you wonder why I am a little high blood with Minister

Or maybe a prime minister? OMG i should be nervous then, nah,i think that's a post about tony blair-ex PM so pls dont mind it


Rianna, I truly am interested in the questions I asked about what Muhammad (pbuh) said he was leaving behind to the followers of Islam. But, let's let someone else explain that to me. I am much more interested in hearing more from you as to what you found unsatisfactory in Christianity. As I explained in the other thread, I am not here to convert anyone. I am only here for two things, to continue to learn about Islam and to correct mis-statements that people make with regard to Christianity.

Yes, even after all this time I continue to learn new things about Islam. I try not to argue doctrines and dogma. I believe I have heard all the major points and, no, I am not drawn to it. But I also continue to appreciate the opportunity to better understand how Muslims see themselves.

For instance, I am surprised that you do not believe that there are sects within Islam. One of the rules of this board is
13. No sectarian issues allowed.
This tells me that there must be sects within Islam or the rule would not be needed. So, I am curious how it is that you perceive that there are no sects in Islam. Whether I agree with your presentation of that perspective isn't the point. It is still interesting to try to understand how it is that you see it that way.

Another example of the value of having a place that I can discuss things with Muslims, is though I've been through 4 different holiday seasons on this board, I just recently was helped to understand the Islamic attitude toward exchanging holiday greetings between Muslims and non-Muslims by something that was shared. These things don't come from reading a book or from a single post, they come from interacting with multiple people over an extended period of time. I suppose that if I lived in a larger city where I could have regular contact with people of Islamic faith, that I wouldn't need this forum. But that is not my situation, and so here I remain.

Also, this board is helpful because I find that one size most certainly does not fit all in Islam. So, even as I understand that Islam is more than just a religion, but a way of life, I find that what that life looks like can vary a great deal from place to place, even person to person. I have a daughter who is Muslim. She is from Turkey, only rarely wears a hijab, and almost constantly listens to music --not exactly the pattern of what I hear regarding the practice of Islam on this board. So, hearing from multiple points of view helps me to begin to better understand what that I hear regarding Islam in the world really is of Islam and what is cultural. It also helps me to be more discerning when listening to the western media what is and isn't real in the picture they try to present. Indeed, to counter that distorted view that was popular in American culture with real examples of the views of Muslim themselves is the intial reason I came to this board years ago.

All of these things taken together become the reason I still am here and still asking questions.

Now, you don't have to answer any question that you don't want. I would not pressure you to do so. But as I said I have also chosen to remain here to correct mis-statements regarding Christians beliefs and practices. For instance, I was surprised to see some of your statements regarding the worship of statutes. As I said, I know of no Christians who engage in this practice. If you grew up Christian, I would have thought you would have been aware of the truth regarding that. That you wrote otherwise tells me that you have gotten your ideas about Christianity from sources that do not represent it well, perhaps even untruthfully. And as you have reiterated countless times, you are interested in the truth. I hope that means you are willing to receive information that challenges what you believe, for some of what you apparently believe about Christians is not actually true of us. You may think that the ultimate Truth resides in Islam. But if what you know about Christianity isn't true, it may just be that you have reached such a conclusion absent all the facts.

Now, again, it isn't my place to talk you out of one faith or into another. I have 8 children. Among them I have a daughter who is Muslim, both a son and a daughter who are Buddhist, another child who practices a secular form of ancestral worship, and one who is still trying to get it all figured out. Even the three who are Christian aren't of the same denomination I am. If I don't put pressure on them to conform to my beliefs, I'm certainly not going to with you. But as with them or anyone else, if you say something about my beliefs that distorts the truth as I know it (and there have been some of those things in several of your recent posts) then I am going to challenge you on those points of contention. No one likes someone to say things about them that aren't true, especially when that person says that they care more about Truth than love. It isn't either truthful or loving to say
Its either yes or NO
But to then respond with neither, but rather with flowery words of the sort I was being criticized for.

So, answer those questions if you want, but not for my sake; others can do that. If you actually care to please me, then simply let your own yes be yes and your own no be no, and don't try to critique Christian beliefs by asserting objections to it when the thing you are critical of isn't even a true of who we are or what we actually believe.
 
So, here are some simple YES/NO questions regarding Islam about which I am curious. (Mind you, these are YES/NO questions. I expect no "it depends" or other sort of evasive answers.)

Oh dear pastor GS, I didn't realize how desperate you are in your defense of the blind faith you surely must know deep down is based on the house of sand.

Do all Muslims supposedly believe the same thing, regardles of whether Shi'a or Sunni or other sect?

Yes, ALL muslims believe the same thing:

1. Laa ilaahailallaahu Muhammadan rasulullah = There is no god worthy of worship but ALLAH, and Muhammad is his messenger
2. believe in the angels
3. Believe in His prophets and messengers (pbut)
4. believe in the books that Allah has revealed to His messengers and Al Qur'an is the final, preserved revelation.
5. Believe in the judgment day (including paradise and hell)
6. Believe in qada' and qadar (freewill and predestination)

And all muslims believe in the 5 pillars of Islam that is obliged on every muslim:
1. To declare shahada
2. To perform obligatory daily shalah
3. to fast in the month of ramadan
4. to pay zakah
5. to go on a hajj for those who can afford it.

It is a pity you are a christian, otherwise you could go to Makkah and see for yourself muslims from all corner of the globe, iran, USA, indonesia, china, kenya, etc, and people who you call sunni, shia, etc. performing the same shalah, performing the same fasting, reading the same qur'an.
Islam is the only true universal religion, which is the complete way of life for everyone and can be followed by anyone anywhere.
Contrats that to christianity which needed to strip everything including its core belief to appeal to non-jews, starting from saul of tarsus who claimed that the gentiles didn't need to observe mosaic laws to make it easy for for the gentiles, and the first few of the ten commandments were even violated and *******ized to appeal to the greeks and latins (God is ONE became God is actually three in one, and the abolition of the commandment "no images and likeness of in the heaven and earth" which was translated into statues and images of old man as the father, naked man on cross as jesus (as) etc etc)..

Not only among christians differ in trivial matters, but among christians, they differ right to the cores:
- some christians believe jesus is 100% pure god
- other christians believe jesus is half half
- yet other christians believe jesus is demigod
- still there are christians who believe jesus is just an avatar used by god (not unlike James Cameron's movie "avatar")
- more other christians believe that jesus was human but then made eternal by god
- other christian groups believe jesus was a messenger, like any other prophets
etc

- some christians believe that Mary (as) was truly mother of God
- other christians believe Mary (as) is just a medium for God
- Some christians believe in the worship of Mary (as)
- other christians believe that the worship of Mary (as) is blasphemous
etc

- almost half christians believe that God has made pope his representative on earth, and infallible
- other christians believe that pastors are sepherds
- yet other christians don't believe in infallibale representatives or shepherds
etc

- some christians believe in full abrogation of mosaic laws
- some other christians believe in abrogation of most mosaic laws
- some other christians believe in the abrogation of some mosaic laws
- and yet some christian groups believe in keeping all of mosaic laws
etc.

you can fill a whole 500GB hard disk with differences in core beliefs among christians, and different christians also have different sets of bibles: some christians have 66 books in their bible, some has 73 books, and some has more, not to mention the varieties of the versions: some believe in the KJV bible, many others think KJV bible is blasphemous, etc.
 
Mr Grace Seeker, MY BIG SALAM to you
To close your inquiry about why I leave Christianity & if my post below is not enough to you, pls don’t mind further, pls just accept I am Muslim now, alhamdollelah, like you have Muslim daughter and other Buddhist children. With right blood pressure I would tell you why ISLAM is nothing but the truth.

· It is the only religion that holds Allah as One, Unique, and Perfect
· It is the only religion that believes in the sole worship of Allah, not human, not an idol, and not an angel, only Allah.
· The Quran contains scientific facts, which are 1300 years ahead of their time. The Quran, while revealed 1400 years ago contains scientific facts, which are only now being discovered. It is not in contradiction to science.
· The Quran does not contain contradictions.
· Allah has challenged the world to produce the like of the Quran. And He says they won't be able to.
· Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the most influential man in history. He had many prophecies, and of his prophecies have come true /coming true

I don’t like to put pressure on you BUT I very brave to tell you are not in the CORRECT Path, you are truly believer and seems to be honest and hardworking towards faith however, don’t let all your efforts go for nothing. Everyone here can tell you advise and they are nothing but wise, but I hope you remember mine, PLEASE don’t let all your efforts go for nothing

One of the top reason why I like being Muslim is bcoz nobody knows really whether I am good person or not, except my ONE & ONLY TRUE GOD - Allah
I am talking about intention.
So if your intention here to learn more about Islam, pls I am telling you, you are educated in ISLAM more than million of Muslims around the globe, so you must think and stop right there.
Now if your intention is to defend Christianity amongst Muslim, well you don’t have to do that, bcoz when you do that, the benefit goes to us, true Muslims will increase their Imaan (faith) inshallah.

As I told you earlier, if your fate is to die Non Muslim after finding all this much about ISLAM, LET me tell you, this scares me more than the “Wrong Turn” movie (I vomit blood- I hate scary movie)

But I still wish you can do something about it, that you can convince THE ONE TRUE GOD TO lead you in the right path inshallah.

The last thing I can do for you is make Duaa, inshallah brother, really inshallah, in the will of my ONE TRUE GOD, May He have mercy on you and your soul and give you chance to see the correct path, may He have mercy on me as well to have more patience and allow me to die a TRUE MUSLIM. inshallah

Salam


Salam
Thanks for the information, its addition to my knowledge. In advance I would like to apologize to all the reader for I am not a good writer but I will try to avoid lots of errors esp in grammar. If I will offend you mr grace seeker,,, in any way I will not apologize coz I will do what it takes to prove that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Inshallah

Bismillah Arahman Araheem

In some translation they didn’t use Christian, instead The Jews called them “Nazarenes or Gallileans” Infact, the Nazarenes were the original Christians, so that caused more confusion to me. I have also read that Ebionites are the true Christians.It is more than complicated to me.

The definition of the word “TRUTH” means simple and constant and should not be changed over times.

How about Christianity, was it confirmed as the religion and Christians being the follower?

Christians define: Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus (NOT THE ONE TRUE CREATOR). Adherents of the Christian faith are known as Christians.

How about the 1st four Commandments? 1. I am the Lord your God 2. You shall have no other gods before me 3. You shall not make for yourself an idol 4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your one God

Son of God:
Didn’t it mention in the bible that Israel, David, Ephraim & Solomon are also son of God?

My common sense view of Prophet Jesus.

With all what I think is right, I will still put myself in your position for me to have a better understanding.
Jesus photo is not at all printed in any Bible, thousand years ago Camera was not invented. Then how can you justify to me that The Statue of Jesus being worship is his real looks, not invented or not a pic of a man who has a huge dream to be worshipped?
Secondly, please go & take two statues & keep them close together. Can you see what I see? Exactly!!! They are not 100% identical in any manner. Eyes, nose … can be little smaller & eyelashes could be less. What am I thinking? You are right again, I knew you are indeed very CLEVER!!! Yesssss! it is MAN- MADE.

As you can see, why there can’t be two President in one country or two dad to a baby? Why? because it would be totally mess!


Now let me give you bullets (not from a gun) to understand your cycle:


1. Jesus was born
2. Jesus was crucified & died for 3days (hmm no need to ask who is GOD DURING these days)
3. Jesus was buried but he come to Life again (some believe he escape from death becoz he look for fish& hangry)
4. Now Jesus is ALIVE after death right?

If you believe he was raised by God to heaven, where is his body? Was it buried again, when & which part of the bible it is mentioned?
Now if his body or soul was raised and Jesus and God is ONE, You must tell me Jesus entered the BODY OF GOD.. Now you are talking, yes should be this way to say they are ONE. But nah
As I said, whattt ??? is that Dragon Ball Z, some kinda FUSION thinggg? Are we still talking about a religion here ???



Let us imagine, there is an earthquake, and Jesus statue break down. Do you still call him Son of God or God, when he can’t even save himself from a little shake? Hold him tight I’m sure you can save HIM. But no no no, a BIG NO NO NO, He can’t save you. So shall we say, you should be the God of this statue coz you were the Protector? Yah im the first one to believe.

I can be little crazy in my imagination, but there is no way I can believe that Our Beloved Prophet Easa is God. And I will share you the ff and please stay online and let’s end this:

Mathew 26:39 Jesus fell with his face to the ground and prayed to God…
If I say One True God, the Creator and Jesus is one – then Mat 26:39 meant that Jesus prayed to himself. Why would he do that, isn’t it when two has the same title, both must have equal rights etc.
Okay, you will not have hard time to convince me to believe if you show me ANY verse from the Bible that the Creator Himself, fell His face to the ground and prayed to Jesus?
No way!!! Instead you will find that Jesus fast for 40days to please his Creator & so on.
What is this some kind of a joke? Please don’t make me nervous, I have a weak heart. Why would you people keep on insisting that God and human can be same in some aspects? One of the Attributes of REAL God must be All HOLY - The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear FROM adversaries.
Here’s another guess for you, Jesus does not have any idea whatsoever that he is gonna pay for all your sins PEOPLE .
Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (sharing you my basic Arabic knowledge: Allah Allah lama tarak tani?) "--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Why on earth your God cried out loud? That is totally nothing but shameless. Why on earth Your God has to pay the sin of HIS CREATION!!! TO whooom he has to pay if He and God is one!!! If there is some kind of bargaining here, dudeee Wake up, both the God and Jesus must share the tears right? Now if you agree with me, then you not Christian anymore, YOU ARE ATHEIST that means half Muslim. Shame shame and forever shameeeee

And I’d like you to guess more, your bible confirms that Jesus and God are not ONE.
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”
Surprisingly to you, your Jesus is very well 100% dead on this very HOUR. No One or even your eyelash will stand on this very moment EXCEPT the ONE TRUE GOD. Subhanallah!!! Takbeerr ya Muslim brothers & Sisters! Allahu Akbar

I really would like to continue replying but you know, I do feel it’s a total waste of time. Don’t tell me to answer all your statement because our Prophets are not like the prophets in your bible, our Prophets (Peace be Upon Them) were role model to all mankind, they were never accused of adultery or anything like that.
No Mister, I am not so surprised that sex is mentioned in the Bible, coz let me tell you, In Islam a husband & wife having sex is equivalent to worshipping our God.
But I didnt expect that many Christian paretns would stop their teenage children from reading bible bcoz of XXX thing in it. what is it some kind of PLAYBOY magazine???

You are well educated enough about Islam seeing your reputation and posts however you are well far from being one of the Believers. And mind you Mr Ramadhan will get lots of blessing for being so patient with you but I am not.

Let me tell you what I learned last night from my dear loving husband’s (May Allah be pleased with him) statement which I am obliged to share to you. A PROUD and a BELIEVER can’t be together. Little did you know that Shaytan prays to Allah more than any of His Creation,,, But why he is where he is right NOW??? Coz he is A BIG BIG PROUD.

My One True God will never guide those who are proud and denial of TRUTH. So hence I would just like to leave you with this Surrah Al Kafirun

Say (O Muhammad): O ye who reject faith! (1)
I worship not that which ye worship. (2)
Nor will you worship that which I worship. (3)
And I will never worship that which you worship. (4)
Nor will you worship that which I worship. (5)
Unto you is your religion and unto me is my religion (Islam). (6)

So in view of the above, My one True God = Allah is not the God you have in your mind

Ma salam and I wish not to waste more time with you.
 
But I still wish you can do something about it, that you can convince THE ONE TRUE GOD TO lead you in the right path inshallah.

Riana, as a follower of Islam you know that I cannot convince Allah to do anything. He draws to himself those that he wills. It is not for me to determine the will of Allah. If after all that you say that I know about Islam, Allah has seen fit to leave me a Christian, then I assume he must have some divine purpose for it. And Allah knows best.
 
True love does not misguide anyone and it is the source of true peace.
Peace to you.

Satan certainly misguides and he has certainly misguided those who ascribe partners unto God. The source of true peace and love is worshipping ONE God and NOT ascribing partners unto him. You reject his teachings from the scriptures then how can you obey him as he wants and not how you "think" he wants?

Do not let Satan show you the way but follow the way of God through his words and teachings. Reject your enemy and turn unto the one true God and worship NOT his creations for surely this is the ultimate aim of our enemy Satan.
 
Riana, as a follower of Islam you know that I cannot convince Allah to do anything. He draws to himself those that he wills. It is not for me to determine the will of Allah. If after all that you say that I know about Islam, Allah has seen fit to leave me a Christian, then I assume he must have some divine purpose for it. And Allah knows best.

Oh I dont blv that, as human we have free will, If Allah sees you have a good heart and you are humble and from the bottom of your heart you would like to submit to one TRUE GOD, yes definitely you have 99% chance to be guided, OUR ONE TRUE GOD is the Most Merciful and the Most Just

He wont let any Believers down
as long as we humble ourselves

If after all you are not guided, then maybe its time to re evaluate the intention & so on
 
Riana, as a follower of Islam you know that I cannot convince Allah to do anything. He draws to himself those that he wills. It is not for me to determine the will of Allah. If after all that you say that I know about Islam, Allah has seen fit to leave me a Christian, then I assume he must have some divine purpose for it. And Allah knows best.

This is a cop out. Not believing in Allah is one thing, but to disbelieve in Allah AND then blame HIM for not accepting Islam is logically twisted, and can only come from someone who normally has logically twisted belief.
Oh wait....
never mind :D
 
Do all Muslims supposedly believe the same thing, regardles of whether Shi'a or Sunni or other sect?

There are only two sects in Islam Sunni and Shi'a. Sunni makes up the vast majority whereas Shi'a a small minority. Unlike in Christianity where most denominations differ with regards to core fundamental beliefs, the core fundamental beliefs of Sunni and Shi'a are generally the same.


Did the prophet command the Muslims that after his death they ought to follow his sahabah?

Naturally those who followed the Prophet directly i.e. the Sahaaba would be the best to follow after the Prophet as they met him, spoke to him and spent their time with him. The first generations were the best generations of this Ummah followed by the next generation and so on.

Did the prophet say: “I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my progeny. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond (in the hereafter).”?

This Hadith is referred to as Hadith al-Thaqalayn (The two weighty things). There are a few slight variations of this Hadith but the more reliable version is the following:

“I am going to leave with you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.” Then he (the Prophet) prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. Then he said: “And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.”

This version has been reported (with very minor variations, if any) in Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Daarimiy, and others. In Sahih Muslim #5922, we also find that the following was said: “The Book of Allah contains right guidance, the light, and whoever adheres to it and holds it fast, he is upon right guidance and whosoever deviates from it goes astray.”

A similar narration has been accepted by the Shia, such as the following in the main shi'a website:

“The Prophet replied: “One of them is the Book of Allah and the other one is my select progeny (Itrat), that is family (Ahlul-Bayt). Beware of how you behave (with) them when I am gone from amongst you, for Allah, the Merciful, has informed me that these two (i.e., Quran and Ahlul-Bayt) shall never separate from each other until they reach me in Heaven at the Pool (of al-Kawthar). I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. Once more! I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt.

References:

- A’alam al-Wara, pp 132-133

It should be noted that this version of Hadith al-Thaqalayn is accepted by the Shia to be the most authentic one, and it is in fact narrated in A’alam al-Wara (pp.132-133) by “Amin al-Islam” al-Tabrisi, the great Shia author who wrote Majma` al-Bayan.

So one will notice that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) says that in the Quran is guidance and it is a light which we should hold fast to without which we will go astray. It can be inferred from this that the Quran is a source of deriving our religion from. On the other hand, when the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) talks about his family, he says only “I remind you of my family”. In the version used by the Shia website above, we even read the words quite clearly: “Beware of how you behave with them…” And in another version, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) uses the words “how you treat them after me.”

Therefore, the Hadith al-Thaqalayn is in reference to taking care of (and behaving with) the Prophet’s family after his death, and it cannot be construed in the Shia manner at all. While the Quran is referred to as a source of guidance and light, this is not the case for the Ahlel Bayt, which is not referred to as a source of religion. The Hadith only directs the Muslims to refrain from adopting an uncalled for attitude towards them or a disrespectful behavior towards them.

If the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) really meant what the Shia are implying, then the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) should have said something like “follow the Quran and my Ahly Bayt, the light and gudiance”, instead of saying: “…The Quran, which is the light of guidance…and I remind you of my family…”

Shaikh Faraz Rabbani’s student Sidi Salman Younas says:

It is important to note what Thaqalayn means. It is the dual form of Thaql. Thaql means “weight”, “burden”, and “heavy”. Obviously, Thaql has a general connotation of a weight which burdens and elicits responsibility. Out of all the definitions of Thaql and its various forms and their various explications, “important” or “importance” is not one of them. “Importance” would be an inference at most, but definitely not a definition. Even if Thaql is to be understood as “important” it must be understood that it is an importance regarding its characteristic of eliciting responsibility, burden and cumber rather than being momentous and splendid. Obviously, Thaql and its various forms unanimously allude to burden, responsibility and cumber.

Now let us look at the context of the Hadith:

It is impossible to discuss the Hadith al-Thaqalayn without first understanding the specific context in which the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said what he said. This is a general rule of thumb pertaining to the Islamic canon as a whole: it is important to know the background in which a Quranic verse was revealed or a certain Hadith was said.

For example, the Quranic verse “slay them wherever you find them” is often used by Orientalists to wrongfully make it appear as if Islam advocates the slaying of people wherever you find them all the time. Of course, if we look at when this verse was revealed, we find that it was specifically revealed during a battle between the Muslims and the Quraish Mushriks; this makes us realize that it is not a general ruling to slay people but rather it was a verse revealed in a specific situation.

Likewise, Hadith al-Thaqalayn was revealed in a certain context and this background is important to understand if we want to know what the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) meant when he said what he said.

First off, the Hadith about following Quran and Sunnah was said by the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) in front of the larger gathering during his Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat. However, the Hadith al-Thaqalayn (i.e. Quran and Ahlel Bayt) was not said during the Farewell Sermon; instead, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said the Hadith al-Thaqalayn in front of the smaller gathering of people at a place called Ghadir Khumm, a half-way point to Medinah. It was directed only towards those living in Medinah, because the Prophet’s family lived in Medinah and therefore the task of taking care of them would fall upon their shoulders.

If Hadith al-Thaqalayn meant we should follow the Qur'an and his family then surely the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) would have said it in front of all the Muslims during his Farewell Sermon. Instead, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) only said this to those living in the same city as his family, again implying that what he meant was to take care of them. And perhaps the biggest proof is the fact was that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said the Hadith al-Thaqalayn during his speech at Ghadir Khumm.

What happened was a group of soldiers were harshly criticizing Ali (رضّى الله عنه) and complaining about him to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) at the place of Ghadir Khumm. It was in response to this hatred, abuse, and disrespect towards Ali (رضّى الله عنه) that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) found it necessary to defend his family in the Hadith al-Thaqalayn. This serves as a very strong proof that the meaning behind the Prophet’s words were not about deriving religion from the Ahlel Bayt but rather about behaving with them, taking care of them, honouring them, respecting them, etc.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

Did the prophet not also say: "I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray."?

Yes as mentioned above the Hadith about following Quran and Sunnah was said by the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) in front of the larger gathering during his Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat which he wanted to stress to ALL Muslims to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Did the prophet leave behind 3 things: the Book of Allah, the Sunnah, and his progeny?

This has already been clarified above.

If one follows the Qur'an alone is that sufficient to not go astray?

If one follows the Qur'an properly it then one will know that it clearly commands Muslims to follow the Prophet and the Sunnah.

Allah says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.

O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

He says that the Prophet صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم has been sent to explain the Quran, not just to deliver it (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).


By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

He says that people do not have faith if they do not take the Prophet صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم as the judge of their disputes (Surah an-Nisa ayah 65).


No, by your Lord and Sustainer, they do not have faith until they have you (O Prophet) judge what is disputed among them, then they do not find in their souls any distress at what you have decided, and they accept it wholly and completely.

He says that when He and the Prophet صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم have decided a matter, it is not for any believing man or woman to do anything but obey (Surah al-Ahzab ayah 36).

And it is not ever for a faithful man or a faithful woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided an affair that there is any choice for them in their affair, and who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, so he is indeed wandering far astray.

He says that what the Messenger صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم gives, people should take, and what he prohibits, they should abstain from (Surah al-Hashr ayah 7).

...And what the Messenger gives you, so take it, and what he prohibits you, so refrain from it. And be in awe of Allah. Surely Allah is Stern of Punishment.


Hope I have clarified things for you. If you have anymore questions then please do not hesitate to ask. Thank you
 
Hope I have clarified things for you. If you have anymore questions then please do not hesitate to ask. Thank you

That really was most helpful, thank-you.Thank-you for taking my question seriously. And thank-you that by doing so you have also helped to get this thread back on track for the purposes that it was intended.I knew that there were differences between Sunni and Shia. I knew they had to do with differing sources of authority. But I knew all these things from non-Islamic sources. The other day, I had a Shia point these verses out to me and explain things from his point of view. It is good to hear the other side. Again, thank-you.
 
Pardon me if this next question is considered too sectarian for the purposes of this forum. If so, I understand that it must be deleted. But I ask because I am genuinely interested.

I am curious as to the reasons for what appears to be sectarian violence within Islam. How long has it been this way? And is it really sectarian, or is there another source behind it that doesn't have anything to do with being Shia or Sunni?

My obsevations are that it increased following western incursions into Iraq, but that this was just an agitation of something that had existed long before. But I don't know how long before. It also seems to me that the divisions between Shia and Sunni seem to be close to but not identical to political boundaries. Is it perhaps related to ancient family tribal alignments? So, might the violence really just be about those sort of political interests?
 

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