Things in Islam I am curious about...

[MustafaMc]

Are you laughing at me?

Seriously, that is what I first heard. It has been many years now, so I can't reference it any more, but it was in a book about Islam, written by Muslims. (I stay away from anything but primary source material as much as possible in any type of research, but especially with regard to religion.) But it did strike me as interesting. I think the idea of a ram is not so funny. Sheep and goats are both known to be much more capable of navigating steep and narrow mountain cliffs than people are. They seem to traverse them with great ease.

Could the book that you read have been written by a non-Muslim imposter ? Not to say this is what happened, but it sounds like a fraudulent creation by someone wanting to make a tie-in with dependence upon the "Lamb of God" to get across the Sirat (bridge) over Hell. Do you remember the book title or the author?

 

[Nawal89]

Actually about the ram thingy lol..

I think you mgiht be confused GraceSeeker. I remember a hadeeth I learnt: After the people are already judged on the day of judgement, Death will come in the shape of a ram with an angel leading it. And then the angel will call out oh people of Jannah (heaven) there will be no death after today, and oh people of jahannam (hell) there will be no death after to day, and the ram will be slaughtered on a bridge between heaven and hell.

could this be the ram you're talking about?

 

[Malaikah]

Yeh that is what I thought too... that after a while he might have just got confused because he hadn't read it in a while. (Happens to me a lot:X)

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Actually about the ram thingy lol..

I think you mgiht be confused GraceSeeker. I remember a hadeeth I learnt: After the people are already judged on the day of judgement, Death will come in the shape of a ram with an angel leading it. And then the angel will call out oh people of Jannah (heaven) there will be no death after today, and oh people of jahannam (hell) there will be no death after to day, and the ram will be slaughtered on a bridge between heaven and hell.

could this be the ram you're talking about?

i think so sis, and this happens AFTER everyone is ALREADY in heaven or hell. so i dont understand how this could have anything to do with passing the bridge...


allahu a'lam

 

[guyabano]

What is the benefit in music? To me it is just a waste of time, and with music, most of the time there comes too many bad side effects with it.

The music is everything. Already your body creates 'music', the heartbeat !
Music makes happy, bring people together. The effect of music vibrations have already positive effects on babies still inside the womb.

The pounding sound of a drum can help us to take notice of our own heartbeat. It is our heartbeats that keep us alive and vital. Drumming can also be very therapeutic in getting in touch with our inner selves. A low, steady beat can create a calmness whereas a stronger upbeat can stir us into action or frenzy.

Over the past few years there have been a growing number of men's groups forming who engage in drumming rituals. However, men are not alone in taking to the drum to find inner peace and relaxation, women too have discovered the healing power of the drumbeat.

Music is the first language of the earth - the sound of the wind in the trees, the melody of birdsongs, running water tripping over rocks - and the language of music touches an ancient and eternal place within us, beyond the logic of the mind. Scientific studies now confirm that playing music helps premature babies gain weight faster, surgery patients heal faster and migraine sufferers suffer less, among other incredible results. Music has a positive effect on a wide variety of symptoms, as it lifts the human spirit in subtle and profound ways.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Already your body creates 'music', the heartbeat !

the rythm of the heart beating isnt music lol,
the rythm is a sound indeed but i wouldnt call it music... music is orchestrated with a purpose.. sound and noise is similar, they happen due to events such as turning on the tap or walking with wooden shoes etc. you cant call this music lol

Music makes happy, bring people together.

and whilst these people are happy and together what do they do? dance.. get hyper... music sometimes can be as intoxicating as alcohol if not worse... i've seen people drown in despair due to music...

The effect of music vibrations have already positive effects on babies still inside the womb.

lol sound and music is far different..

The pounding sound of a drum can help us to take notice of our own heartbeat. It is our heartbeats that keep us alive and vital. Drumming can also be very therapeutic in getting in touch with our inner selves. A low, steady beat can create a calmness whereas a stronger upbeat can stir us into action or frenzy.

this is exactly why islam in all its genius has by the majority made the light drum "daff" permissable, and the heavy drums which go BOOM haram. see the genius of islam

Over the past few years there have been a growing number of men's groups forming who engage in drumming rituals. However, men are not alone in taking to the drum to find inner peace and relaxation, women too have discovered the healing power of the drumbeat.

you mean the light drum/daff ? lol

Music is the first language of the earth - the sound of the wind in the trees, the melody of birdsongs, running water tripping over rocks - and the language of music touches an ancient and eternal place within us, beyond the logic of the mind. Scientific studies now confirm that playing music helps premature babies gain weight faster, surgery patients heal faster and migraine sufferers suffer less, among other incredible results. Music has a positive effect on a wide variety of symptoms, as it lifts the human spirit in subtle and profound ways.

i agree sounds are amazing, this is why we use the sound of our voice to call the muslims to prayer.

but you cant equate sound with orchestrated music lol, its far different.

music is created in a way to hit peoples emotions and its going to be hard to deny this. Again think of the millions who get influences so horribly by music...

 

[guyabano]

Well, some cultures use music to put themselves to trance state. That's true. But we all are not in the position to debate on why they do that. It's their believings? Maybe a way to be closer to God?

I will also not deny that music can create negative influence. This is the part where I worte about becoming frenzy. Techno Music, where 180 bpm (beats per minute) are usual can already have a negative influence on teenies.
But IMO, it is not the music which creates the violence in that case, but more the lyrics, which go with.

Aha, so why we always say 'heart-beat' and not 'heart-sound' ? Of course the heartbeat can be considered as a music, maybe monotone, but it is a 'rythm'

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ lol your really interesting thanks!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Actually about the ram thingy lol..

I think you mgiht be confused GraceSeeker. I remember a hadeeth I learnt: After the people are already judged on the day of judgement, Death will come in the shape of a ram with an angel leading it. And then the angel will call out oh people of Jannah (heaven) there will be no death after today, and oh people of jahannam (hell) there will be no death after to day, and the ram will be slaughtered on a bridge between heaven and hell.

could this be the ram you're talking about?

Well, I didn't read about any ram being slaughtered. Though that is also interesting. And, MustafaMc, you are right, when I read about the ram I immediately reflected on my Christian imagery of the "lamb of God", but of course the book never mentioned anything like that itself.

It's been 5 years. And it was one of the first things I read with regard to Islam in serious study. Since it isn't in any of the books I actually bought at the time, I'm wondering if indeed my memory is a little off. I wonder if I am remembering from a website. Or, maybe, it came to me in the form of a revelation, a visit from Jibra'il? :statisfie

There seems to be enough unanimity from different places around the world, that I will accept from you all, that even if I were to find that reference again, that the reference itself is not indicative of mainstream thought or teaching in Islam.

Now, tell me about this ram that is slaughtered on the bridge. What is the purpose of slaughtering it?

Is this metaphorical langauge, or do Muslims believe this to be a literal physical bridge?

 

[- Qatada -]

Or, maybe, it came to me in the form of a revelation, a visit from Jibra'il?

Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibrael (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quran) down to your heart by Allah's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers.

"Whoever is an enemy to Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, Jibrael (Gabriel) and Mikael (Michael), then verily, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers."

And We have certainly revealed to you verses [which are] clear proofs, and no one would deny them except the defiantly disobedient.


[Qur'an 2: 97-99]
​

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Interesting. I have had three different Muslims respond, and I appreciate them all, but they appear to have given three different answers. I am assuming that if I was Muslim I could see the harmony between them, but I am not, can someone help me with that?

u may read chapter 19 , sura Mary & commentary to know more .

chapter Mary / Marium

Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished


( yusuf Ali translation )

http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/19.htm

another translation :

And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord


related link:


(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind.

The third group will pass like the fastest horse.

The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' ''


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=19&tid=31598

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam / peace ;

... maybe, it came to me in the form of a revelation, a visit from Jibra'il?

:statisfie

do u really believe Angel Jibrail/ Gabriel (p) visits people now with revelation from God ?

Now, tell me about this ram that is slaughtered on the bridge. What is the purpose of slaughtering it?

ram will represent death .

there will be no death anymore in hell or heaven. When sinners will beg for death , then they will be told that no death here in this life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

do u really believe Angel Jibrail/ Gabriel (p) visits people now with revelation from God ?

I won't categorically exclude it from the realm of possibility. Though my comments were more directed at my inability to name exactly where the thought I had and my memory of it came from. I wasn't really claiming anything.

 

[Keltoi]

Well, some cultures use music to put themselves to trance state. That's true. But we all are not in the position to debate on why they do that. It's their believings? Maybe a way to be closer to God?

I will also not deny that music can create negative influence. This is the part where I worte about becoming frenzy. Techno Music, where 180 bpm (beats per minute) are usual can already have a negative influence on teenies.
But IMO, it is not the music which creates the violence in that case, but more the lyrics, which go with.

Aha, so why we always say 'heart-beat' and not 'heart-sound' ? Of course the heartbeat can be considered as a music, maybe monotone, but it is a 'rythm'

This talk of drums brings me back to a part of my culture, the Native American one. The sound of the drum is very powerful, and it has much to do with the heartbeat. In fact it is sometimes referred to as the "heartbeat of the Earth".

 

[Nawal89]

Now, tell me about this ram that is slaughtered on the bridge. What is the purpose of slaughtering it?

Is this metaphorical langauge, or do Muslims believe this to be a literal physical bridge?

The ram will represetn death. And after death is killed there will be no more death. And muslims believe that it is a literal and physical bridge, unless there is some hadeeth or qurán explaining that it is not.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can someone explain to me why Ahamdi are not excepted as Muslims by the majority of those who identify themselves as Muslim on this board? I have run into Ahmadi in other places and they always claim that they are Muslims but "Ahmadi Muslim" to distinguish themselves from the majority of folks here whom they would identify as "Jihadi Muslims".

 

[- Qatada -]

That's because from the knowledge that i have, the Ahmadis' believe in another 'Prophet' when it's stated in the Qur'an that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final Prophet of Allaah. (Surah Ahzaab.) Or they believe that he 'reincarnated' into this Ahmad man.


The Ahmadi false prophet, from what i have read in the past rejected the concept of Jihad once the Colonialists entered the Muslim lands, and this may be one of the reasons why they may feel that Jihad is evil.


Allaah knows best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

My questions would have been woefully off topic in the thread in which this quote occurred. So, I am posting it here:

Allaah does have attributes, i.e. He is the Seeing, Hearing etc. Yet there is none like Him. So Allaah is not formless, yet we do not know how his attributes are since we are only limited to understanding this existence.

So if Allaah says He has eyes, we do not say they are like human eyes, but we do say that Allaah has eyes since He has stated that.

Now, if I read that Allah says he has eyes, since my understading of God is that God is spirit (yes, that's a Christian understanding, based on John 4:23-24), I would just assume that Allah was speaking metaphorically, not literally. Do you hold that all such statements are to be taken literally?

Or maybe a better way to phrase the question is-- How do you determine when a statement is to be taken literally and when it is to be taken figuratively?

 

[- Qatada -]

I think the basic rule is that when Allaah and His Messenger state something, then it is to be taken literally unless there is proof otherwise i.e. to state that it is metaphorical etc.


And Allaah knows best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think the basic rule is that when Allaah and His Messenger state something, then it is to be taken literally unless there is proof otherwise i.e. to state that it is metaphorical etc.


And Allaah knows best.

OK. I can appreciate that approach, but that still leaves the question before us. What would those "proofs" be?

For instance, in the scenario we are discussing, I don't know does the Qur'an actually say that Allah has "eyes"? Or does it say that he "sees"? There is a difference I would think. I'm assuming that even in Arabic, people can speak of different ways of "seeing", sometimes using literal eyes, and sometimes by other means -- and thus I would assume that Allah can, and probably would, too. Do you see what I mean?

And unless the Qur'an specifically states that Allah has a physical form, wouldn't that be reason enough not to assume literal eyes unless the Qur'an actually said so. Again, I'm back to asking for an explanation of those "proofs" that you menion.


Note: I am discussing eyes here not because eyes are themselves so improtant, but as a proxy for all the other things that could be taken either literally or figuratively from the location of Paradise to concept of Jihad. So, that is why I think it is important to know how to determine, to know the "proofs", for distinguishing between literal and figurative langauge in the Qur'an. Consider the discussions of Muslims not to take non-Muslims as "friends" in some of the past threads. This had to do with literal vs. some other understanding of the passage and the Arabic words involved.