Time for a modern progressive islam

[Mr. Baldy]

aslaam alykum,

yeah i see what ur saying, and i agree with it, i just want to point out that individualism is a very dangerous concept, and really to achieve indvidual reform the people have got to want to change themselves, in a community it is easier because once you get some people going, others will follow, like a domino efect.

wa alykum aslaam

 

[tru_nigga]

aslaam alykum,

the only reason we are suffering is because we allow so called 'mulsim' leaders to lead our countries, we allow oursleves to be ruled by a kufar system. we dont need to integrate into modern society, rather modern society should integrate into our way o life i.e. khilafah. with the reinstation of khilafah and only with the reinstaion of khilafah will the muslims be able to recalim their dignity and stop these backward cultural traditions. that should be our goal, instead of going to kaffir and saying "lubayk, we will concede to your every whim" which is what your efectivley saying, and how can we rely on the kuffar if we cant rely on our very own scholars and leaders?

wa alykum aslaam

You want khilafah, so who is going to choose the khaleefa. This is not a few thousands companions trying to choose a leader among them. Today there are 1 billion muslims of various nationalities and cultures. We can't even agree in this small forum, you want us to agree on the khalifa. Akhee, even the ikhwan in egypt gave up the khilafa concept. No mainstream islamic party is calling for khilafa anymore. The khilafa is a thing of the past, even then three of them were assasinated. There was just too much division. Akhee, stop being lazy and looking at the past to solve our problems today. This was 1350 years ago.

Reforming islam does not mean islam is not perfect. Islam is faith in God, the prophets, angels, scriptures and judgement day. These things do not change with time. Imaan and kufr do not change with time. But trying to implement laws that were in tune with the past, that might have been relevant to that period with today is not possible. That is what the taliban tried to do, and we all seen what happened.

Our understanding of islam is that there are divine laws that never change. Let me tell you, laws were made to change. Are the immigration laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the banking laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the traffic laws today the same as 50 years ago. New laws are made like international laws, marine laws, environmental laws . These laws were recent, it had no concept in the past. Laws change with time, they change with new realities. They are dynamic and not static. But when you make them divine then it remains static and slowly they become not relevant.

The muslim family today is different that 1350 years ago. Women today are educated, they work, they contribute to the household income. Societies today are diverse, large and complex. This is not the village of mecca or medina. Today there is lahore, cairo, Jakarta, cities with over 10 million people. You have to tailor laws according to the needs of societies. Taliban style will fail. They took the afghans back hundreds of years, the afghans now don't want them back. Because they were regressing and not progressing.

 

[aamirsaab]

You want khilafah, so who is going to choose the khaleefa. This is not a few thousands companions trying to choose a leader among them. Today there are 1 billion muslims of various nationalities and cultures. We can't even agree in this small forum, you want us to agree on the khalifa. Akhee, even the ikhwan in egypt gave up the khilafa concept. No mainstream islamic party is calling for khilafa anymore. The khilafa is a thing of the past, even then three of them were assasinated. There was just too much division. Akhee, stop being lazy and looking at the past to solve our problems today. This was 1350 years ago.

Reforming islam does not mean islam is not perfect. Islam is faith in God, the prophets, angels, scriptures and judgement day. These things do not change with time. Imaan and kufr do not change with time. But trying to implement laws that were in tune with the past, that might have been relevant to that period with today is not possible. That is what the taliban tried to do, and we all seen what happened.

Our understanding of islam is that there are divine laws that never change. Let me tell you, laws were made to change. Are the immigration laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the banking laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the traffic laws today the same as 50 years ago. New laws are made like international laws, marine laws, environmental laws . These laws were recent, it had no concept in the past. Laws change with time, they change with new realities. They are dynamic and not static. But when you make them divine then it remains static and slowly they become not relevant.

The muslim family today is different that 1350 years ago. Women today are educated, they work, they contribute to the household income. Societies today are diverse, large and complex. This is not the village of mecca or medina. Today there is lahore, cairo, Jakarta, cities with over 10 million people. You have to tailor laws according to the needs of societies. Taliban style will fail. They took the afghans back hundreds of years, the afghans now don't want them back. Because they were regressing and not progressing.

err... i hate to say this but i gotta disagree.
although, you have made several vaild points you fail to see one thing: the laws you have discussed are man made - we all know man made laws change. However, Allah's laws will never change.

With regards to the taliban - now you see what they did was perfectly halaal - they took the law by the quran but in doing so, in practicing their own religion, they were attacked by those who saw different, no infact, those who believed different.

What this basically means is that it is not the religion but the follower. Islam doesnt need to change - we can still generalise most of the quran to everyday life - that is part of the beauty of the quran. However, the people seem to have forgotten the teachings of the quran which is why a divide has occured.

yes the muslim community is a mess but it isnt the religion's fault.
yes times change but so do people. if all the muslims united fully in all manner of speaking then islam would be undefeatable (i.e. the stronges religion ever known) - the kufr would realise that islam is the true religion and probably revert (or convert) but sadly we as muslims cant even unite in prayers so there is little hope of achieving that.

 

[Green Bird]

hmmmmmmmm-difficult concepts. But there is always hope always hope. There isnt much differnce between Badr, and the Russ-afghan war. Allah is always there no matter what day and age, its just up to us to have the motivation and the determination to make Allah and Islam the pinnacle of our lives then change will come, inshallah.

 

[Lateralus63]

You want khilafah, so who is going to choose the khaleefa. This is not a few thousands companions trying to choose a leader among them. Today there are 1 billion muslims of various nationalities and cultures. We can't even agree in this small forum, you want us to agree on the khalifa. Akhee, even the ikhwan in egypt gave up the khilafa concept. No mainstream islamic party is calling for khilafa anymore. The khilafa is a thing of the past, even then three of them were assasinated. There was just too much division. Akhee, stop being lazy and looking at the past to solve our problems today. This was 1350 years ago.

Your whole principle for your arguement is invalid. What i can see is you are saying, historical solutions to modern problems are incompatible, despite the fact we get all our fatwa's from quran and ahadith. <<<Ponder on that.

Your whole modernisation approach has been tried before, let me tell you who irshad manji is. Irshad manji calls herself a "lesbian muslim" and guess who she justifies her practices? by calling islam to modernisation.

Frankly, the khilafat was alive in the times of salahudin and it worked, your proposed solutions has been tried and has shown nothing but destablisation of islamic morality and deviation from the rules of islam. Irshad manji is witness to that.

What has the modernisation of the world shown us? pollution, a corrupt education system, television and brainwashing. Modernisation is frankly a completely horrible thing, because when we modernise we deviate from the norm, and when we stray away from the original practices of man we get artificiality, which shows only aesthetic living and well, simply potential to do evil easier

Our understanding of islam is that there are divine laws that never change. Let me tell you, laws were made to change. Are the immigration laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the banking laws today the same as 50 years ago. Are the traffic laws today the same as 50 years ago. New laws are made like international laws, marine laws, environmental laws . These laws were recent, it had no concept in the past. Laws change with time, they change with new realities. They are dynamic and not static. But when you make them divine then it remains static and slowly they become not relevant.

Look again at your arguement, you are comparing divine laws with man's law, man's law is inevitably flawed because man itself is flawed. Divine law is perfect because Allah is perfect. You cannot compare the two since they are not mutually exclusive, you cannot go further and say, change divine laws.

The muslim family today is different that 1350 years ago. Women today are educated, they work, they contribute to the household income. Societies today are diverse, large and complex. This is not the village of mecca or medina. Today there is lahore, cairo, Jakarta, cities with over 10 million people. You have to tailor laws according to the needs of societies. Taliban style will fail. They took the afghans back hundreds of years, the afghans now don't want them back. Because they were regressing and not progressing.

Look at the concept of modernising families, nowadays we have young people getting married and leaving their parents alone at home. The concept of nuclear families is looked down upon in socieites.

I tell you what. you tell me what should be modernised, and we can see if your proposals have some credit. Because all your statements lack specifics.

 

[Mr. Baldy]

aslaam alykum,

lateralaus speaks the truth, modernisation is the way backwards.

brother nigga, there are loads of islamic groups calling for khilafha, for example, Hizb ut-tahrir (group of liberation) Hizballah (group of allah) al - qaeda..... i suggest you check out the folowing links, 1924.org , khilafah.com , khilafah.org

wa alykum aslaam

 

[Lateralus63]

brother nigga,

;D ;D ;D

But, yeah, those groups call for that sort of stuff if thats your fancy.

still laughing at "brother nigga", just sounds so funny coz it doesnt fit.

 

[Ibn Syed]

Yeah funny. HAHAHA

 

[snipeaac]

It's funnier that people who are calling to Khilaafah don't call to Tawheed. The Prophets had All called for Tawheed, this was the way of the Salaf, this is the way prescribed in the Quraan. So before you call to khilaafah, make your call to tawheed. Correct the 'Aqeedah of the people by enjoining Tawheed in their hearts and sunnah in their actions

 

[tru_nigga]

Your whole principle for your arguement is invalid. What i can see is you are saying, historical solutions to modern problems are incompatible, despite the fact we get all our fatwa's from quran and ahadith. <<<Ponder on that.

Your whole modernisation approach has been tried before, let me tell you who irshad manji is. Irshad manji calls herself a "lesbian muslim" and guess who she justifies her practices? by calling islam to modernisation.

Frankly, the khilafat was alive in the times of salahudin and it worked, your proposed solutions has been tried and has shown nothing but destablisation of islamic morality and deviation from the rules of islam. Irshad manji is witness to that.

What has the modernisation of the world shown us? pollution, a corrupt education system, television and brainwashing. Modernisation is frankly a completely horrible thing, because when we modernise we deviate from the norm, and when we stray away from the original practices of man we get artificiality, which shows only aesthetic living and well, simply potential to do evil easier



Look again at your arguement, you are comparing divine laws with man's law, man's law is inevitably flawed because man itself is flawed. Divine law is perfect because Allah is perfect. You cannot compare the two since they are not mutually exclusive, you cannot go further and say, change divine laws.



Look at the concept of modernising families, nowadays we have young people getting married and leaving their parents alone at home. The concept of nuclear families is looked down upon in socieites.

I tell you what. you tell me what should be modernised, and we can see if your proposals have some credit. Because all your statements lack specifics.

I said that God's laws you mentioned, are not binding as you say, such as cutting the hand of the thief. Yes God is perfect, but we are not. So what God might see as fitting to the people in early arabia, God may not feel it is fitting for us today. Remember in the begining muslims were forbidden from eating the christian and muslims meat, then it was made permissible by God. So you see, laws are dynamic and not static. Throughout the prophets life rules and regulations were changed depending on changing situations and realities. Unfortunantly, when the prophet died, we assume that everything is now frozen and we have to abide by these laws for all times.

The laws regarding jizya, lets say is now not relevant, so as the dhimmi laws. It was relevant in the past, but not today.

As far as khilafa, only hizb ul tahreer is calling for it. The rest are slowly and quietely abandoning it.

Plus many of you looks like live in western nations, they tend to be more idealistic than muslims living in muslim nations. Most muslims here see the west as an example to be followed, rather than the isolationist approach of most muslims living in the west, who can afford to attack the west because they live in it and enjoy the freedom and prosperity in it.

We muslims here, we can't afford it. We are affected by the ignorance and stagnation of the muslim nations.

 

[Lateralus63]

So what God might see as fitting to the people in early arabia, God may not feel it is fitting for us today.

i would be careful how you toss around such words and ideas, Allah doesnt "feel" or is binded to an opinion, astaghfirullah.

So you see, laws are dynamic and not static. Throughout the prophets life rules and regulations were changed depending on changing situations and realities. Unfortunantly, when the prophet died, we assume that everything is now frozen and we have to abide by these laws for all times.

Please define what a modern progressive islam is. So that way we can compare your ideals to the how can i say, original and unitive islam that is so desperately needed today.

We already have fatwa's, for issues that needed to be addressed such as abortion and other things, these issues of technology and the modern world have been addressed already in the fatwa's that various scholars have issued and in a way you can call that modernising, but in reality its re-expressing the static principles of islam's shariah.

 

[snipeaac]

It's very sad how people are abandoning Sharee'ah for man made laws

 

[Lateralus63]

As far as khilafa, only hizb ul tahreer is calling for it. The rest are slowly and quietely abandoning it.

Plus many of you looks like live in western nations, they tend to be more idealistic than muslims living in muslim nations. Most muslims here see the west as an example to be followed, rather than the isolationist approach of most muslims living in the west, who can afford to attack the west because they live in it and enjoy the freedom and prosperity in it.

We muslims here, we can't afford it. We are affected by the ignorance and stagnation of the muslim nations.

And just to finish a few points.

You cant attack the west when you live in the west, ever heard of the BNP? its an offical party which openly expresses muslim hatred. Thats what you get from attacking the west while living in it, and people also endorse the BNP's views as well, which is even more frightening.

Forget the muslim nations, the way to a khilafah as i had earlier posted, was through individual reform of muslims within their communities. And, well, frankly that seems the only way forward left now

p.s no i am not part of hizb ut tahreer

 

[snipeaac]

I like the point "Individual reform". There will never be change lest we change ourselves. Who are we to be running and calling for khilaafah when many cant even read the Quran.

 

[أحمد]

Again i would have to disagree there, we have been saying that for how many years but it never happens. We cannot call for unity as a primary requisite, over the years this call has proved to be futile. What im stating is this, you should call for individual reform, because when everybody individually reforms, unity is something which comes automatically. Asking people to unite when they havent even got the best of adab, iman, or 'ilm, is like trying to work backwards. The real real solution is to say, Muslims need to individually reform.

I would not entirely agree with your theory of futility; as it in quite a few ways contradicts reality. I am and have been in the field of unity along with quite a few others; not as Sunnis, nor as Shias, but as Muslims. I will Insha-Allah write further on this, but as I have a time limit over here; I'll finish off now . . .

 

[tru_nigga]

.




Please define what a modern progressive islam is. So that way we can compare your ideals to the how can i say, original and unitive islam that is so desperately needed today.

We already have fatwa's, for issues that needed to be addressed such as abortion and other things, these issues of technology and the modern world have been addressed already in the fatwa's that various scholars have issued and in a way you can call that modernising, but in reality its re-expressing the static principles of islam's shariah.

Well like how do we chose a leader today, how do we chose a government, how do we transfer power, how do we deal with other nations, how do we regulate ideas and view points, how do we deal with those who differ, minorities, other religions. The scholars today have done little. They have not addressed this issue, in the past they use to say democracy is kufr. Now they are saying democracy is in tune with islam, we are just against secularism. Some of them are now calling for an islamic democracy. Although nobody knows what it means. Basically the scholars are not able to offer real solutions. They seem to me part of the problem itself.

There have been some examples of success, or at least possibility of it, like malaysia or indonesia. But their islam is an oriental one, very moderate and tolerant. The arabs and the indian sub continent have old tribal roots. Their understanding is very different. They have a regressive understanding of Islam. They also are more prone to violence, repression of women and other faiths and sects.

Compare pakistan, saudi arabia with malaysia, big difference.

 

[Lateralus63]

Well like how do we chose a leader today, how do we chose a government, how do we transfer power, how do we deal with other nations, how do we regulate ideas and view points, how do we deal with those who differ, minorities, other religions.

like i said, through individual reform, we get our scholars, artists, politicians, engineers, all these people needed to go back to our destablisied countries and patch them up, then we get one good nation, then another, then the scholars off all the countries form some kind of unitive islamic goverment, which appoints a khalifa.

Think about it first i cant tell you exactly how its going to work, but the fact is, its worked before in the past, more than twice, and unity is in islam, "THE Ummah".

If everybody worries about their own conduct and everyone cares about each other emotionally, everything falls into place automatically.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I said that God's laws you mentioned, are not binding as you say, such as cutting the hand of the thief. Yes God is perfect, but we are not. So what God might see as fitting to the people in early arabia, God may not feel it is fitting for us today.

This is unacceptable. Allah commanded us to stick to the same message. You cannot toss out His commands because you feel that they are unfit for modern times.

This means that you do not really believe in Allah and the Qur'an. Because if you did, you would know that the commands are divine, and then there is no discarding them.

Secondly, in what way are the Islamic punishments unfit for modern times? I suggest you read the following:

Since the Islamic legal injunctions are aimed at achieving human welfare, they can all be referred back to universal principles which are necessary for human welfare to be secured. These universal principles are:

1. The preservation of life.
2. The preservation of religion.
3. The preservation of reason.
4. The preservation of lineage.
5. The preservation of property.

The Causes of Theft and Their Islamic Remedy

The only reasonable causes for theft are hunger, the inability to earn, and disruption in the economy. There are other reasons as well, of a more psychological nature.

What has been mentioned in the previous paragraphs about the Islamic remedy for the absence of social equilibrium and the precautionary measures it takes in this regard are all relevant for the issue of theft. In spite of all these precautions, if a person is found stealing out of hunger or to fulfill his basic needs, then no punishment is meted out to him. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: "Do not carry out the prescribed punishments when there is doubt."

1. Theft

Theft is defined as covertly taking the wealth of another party from its secure location with the intention of taking possession of it.

There are conditions that must be met before an act of theft mandates carrying out the prescribed, fixed punishment. They are:

i. The stolen property must be completely taken into the thief?s possession after being removed from the victim?s possession from a place where such property is generally secured.

ii. The stolen property must be movable.

iii. The stolen property must have an appraisable value. This entails the following:

a. The value of the stolen property must not be negated by being a substance whose use is prohibited by Islamic Law, such as wine and other forbidden things.

b. The stolen item must be among the things that people generally ascribe value to in their dealings with others, and it should not be among the things that people customarily overlook. If these conditions are met in the absence of any doubt that would prevent carrying out the punishment, it becomes mandatory to cut off the hand of the thief from the wrist joint. This is based on Allah's words:

The thieves, male and female, cut off their hands.​

​

For more info: http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1557

Hence, once Allah has made a clear and explicit command like this, you cannot discard it at your whims. To do so would be to deny your faith in God.

Remember in the begining muslims were forbidden from eating the christian and muslims meat, then it was made permissible by God.

First of all, even if what you said were true, the law would be abrogated by Allah's clear and explicit command via revelation. So the parallel for theft would mean that Allah would send us a revelation to end the punishment of theft. But the period of revelation is over.

Secondly, what you said is not true.

So you see, laws are dynamic and not static.

The only reason laws change is because human beings are trying to implement laws based on their trial and error experience. But Allah is our Creator and He has no need for trial and error. He has revealed to us laws that have no need for change.

Another point clearly demonstrates why laws do not change depending on circumstances. Let's say we go back in time and form a tribe. Would we have any problems if we implemented the laws we have today? No. You can establish a western democracy 4000 years ago, just as well as you can establish one today. In both cases, its flawed. NOT because the situation is changing, but because it is not the best plan, and Our Creator has given us the best plan.

Throughout the prophets life rules and regulations were changed depending on changing situations and realities.

This is also incorrect. The gradual revelation of Islam served many purposes, but the religion did not change depending on the circumstances. The gradual revelation of Islam as to accustom the hearts of the believers, for one thing.

We still have this principle in Islam today. If someone became a Muslim, we would not expect them to instantly pray 5 times a day, and suddenly fufill all their obligations. It takes time for one to grow in faith.

But that does not mean that the laws are invalid. Our inability to follow them, does not equate that.

Unfortunantly, when the prophet died, we assume that everything is now frozen and we have to abide by these laws for all times.

When the Prophet saws died, there is no more revelation. We are to practice the laws that were revealed to Him.

How can you change what Allah has revealed when there is no command from Allah to do so? Do you mean to say that Allah has forgotten about us? Do you mean to say that Allah revealed something before that He wanted us to discard whenever we felt like it? Why did He not mention this?

Rather, the opposite is true. Allah swt tells us to always follow the Qur'an, and we can not change the commands of Allah.

33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

48:23 (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah already in the past: no change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

30:30 So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah; that is the standard Religion, but most among mankind understand not.

How can you even begin to dispute with such clear verses? It is clearly stated that Allah does not change His commands, and that we have no option but to follow the commands of Allah and the Prophet.

The direct implication of your words is that you do not believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah. I have debated with many "secular muslims" but it turns out that they are merely atheists with a label attached. Rather than trying to change the commands of Allah, you should try to learn about them so you can appreciate the wisdom behind these commands.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. I have several articles that you may refer to as well.

The laws regarding jizya, lets say is now not relevant, so as the dhimmi laws. It was relevant in the past, but not today.

It will be relevant when we establish an Islamic state.

As far as khilafa, only hizb ul tahreer is calling for it. The rest are slowly and quietely abandoning it.

No, its just that we need to get our priorities straight. How can you establish a state on Islam, when you cannot establish the hearts of people on Islam? We have to begin by spreading the message of Islam, and then we will be able to establish an Islamic state. Only when we return to our religion can we hope to find success.

Plus many of you looks like live in western nations, they tend to be more idealistic than muslims living in muslim nations. Most muslims here see the west as an example to be followed, rather than the isolationist approach of most muslims living in the west, who can afford to attack the west because they live in it and enjoy the freedom and prosperity in it.

The only reason why the west is ahead today is because Muslims abandoned their religion, hence Allah removed His support. Do some historical research. You will find that during the middle ages, the Muslims had a glorious empire, and were at the forefrom in science, technology and art. This was when the west was living in the dark ages. The only reason we lost that glory is because we started to become attached to the material world, we left our religion, and we began to follow the ways of the non-muslims, which is what you are proposing today.

Please begin your research here:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/

 

[Ibn Syed]

Tru Nigga give it up and learn before you post all this wierd stuff.

 

[Preacher]

Today the muslim world is suffering. We are in a pathetic state. We are economically impoverished, technologically backward, and divisions and conflicts are tearing us apart. We need to energize ourselves and start moving ahead.

Hi there

Care to please elaborate the pronoun "we" that you have used? May I also know your sources for such blunt assertions? Being around the world observing and expriencing has thought me that this is not the case with Muslims as you have illustrated with gross distortion?

Our religion we parctice today is frozen in history, we are not able to live in our times and practice our faith. Our religious scholars rely on the past and thus Islam now has a medieval feel.

I have a great deal of difficulty in following the thought process of an ID subliminally based on a racial slur. Frankly I find it hard to believe that you possess basic information of subject matters you like to talk about, let alone possessing real knowledge.

We need to stop using religion as an excuse to resist chane and reform. The islamic fiqh has been frozen for the past 600 years and we are now practicing our religion with rules and doctrines laid out some of them 1250 years ago.

Haven't you been uttering the same garbage at other forums? again, please elaborate the pronounyou have used i.e. "We." Because I find it hard to believe that you are one of us.

We need to examine and scrutinize our past. We need to look at how our religion has evolved through history. We need to accept intelectual arguments and reform the fiqh to modern standards or we will remain dependent on others for our survival.

Islam does not need reform. It is the people who accept Islam needs reform and they is why they have accepted Islam.

We need to start with the so called hadith science, we need to examine how they were compiled, how they were categorized and how they have evolved. We need to re-examine its place in our faith and fiqh. We need to conduct a fact finding mission to see the accuracy and reliability of the hadith using modern day knowledge and science. We can not rely on the sciences of 7th century arabia. Unless we re-examine the fiqh we will continue to lag behind.

We can begin this by banning you from this forum, but lucky for you that I am not a moderator of this forum. Because you have not shown us any evidence in support of your falsifications and distortion. Most importantly you have not shown us that you even possess knowledge of Islam equal to a 2nd grader.

Let us do one thing. I challnege you to debate with me one-on-one on Hadith issue.

We both will follow the following rules:

1. We both will use only Islamic sources, and no unIslamic sources.
2. No copy and paste of other people's work.
3. No links.
4. We both post here, our introduction with our background.
5. We both will support each of your assertions or claims with supporting facts/quotes/verifibale references from Islamic sources. Otherwise, whatever is uttered without facts and evidence will outright be rejected, and the defaulter will loose.

Let us start with your last paragraph that I quote:

We need to start with the so called hadith science, we need to examine how they were compiled, how they were categorized and how they have evolved. We need to re-examine its place in our faith and fiqh. We need to conduct a fact finding mission to see the accuracy and reliability of the hadith using modern day knowledge and science. We can not rely on the sciences of 7th century arabia. Unless we re-examine the fiqh we will continue to lag behind.

I am anxiously waiting, the ball is in your court.

Regards
Preacher