To Atheists

[GuestFellow]

Life on Earth - It is a test for humans. A game for God.

How do you know this is a game for God? XD

And according to the rules, some people have an upper hand. As I have said before the number one indicator of what religion you believe in is the religion of your parents. It seems strange that God would condemn 80% of the world to Hell pretty much right off of the bat simply based on who their parents are.

Actually, being born in a Muslim family does not guarantee a ticket to heaven. A Muslim can leave his faith or commit serious sins. There are atheists and those of other religions who convert. In addition, not all Muslim parents are religious and don't raise their children according to Islamic rules.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Yes



Life on Earth - It is a test for humans. A game for God.

And according to the rules, some people have an upper hand. As I have said before the number one indicator of what religion you believe in is the religion of your parents. It seems strange that God would condemn 80% of the world to Hell pretty much right off of the bat simply based on who their parents are.

I hardly know where to begin. First off, you can't just cite some alleged statistics in reference to people's personal choices as if such a thing simply settles the matter. Even if you're an absolute determinist you still have to account for other factors. Second, none of my own experience has shown me that people who are raised atheists are any likelier to break away from their atheism. Kurt Vonnegut would be a well known example of this similarity. By his own admission he was an atheist pretty much just because he was brought up that way. Go look around in countries with anti-religious culture like Communist states. Third, there is no reason why someone being brought up to believe anything is any more or less likely to hold a true belief. Fourth, if you really understood Islam then you would know (perhaps I can't blame you; lots of Muslims also don't) that it is not 100% exclusivist. See, for example, the final verse of the Koran's second surah. Fifth, you still need to learn the difference between a game and a test. A dictionary would be a great deal of help in this regard. Sixth, condemnation to hell does not happen "right off the bat", or else d-a-m-n-ed people would always be stillborn. One cannot be punished for decisions one has not already made. There's probably a seventh and an eighth but I think I've said enough.

 

[titus]

How do you know this is a game for God? XD

If God is omnipotent then that means that he created Earth, Heaven, Hell, people, Satan, Angels, etc. of his own free will. He created the idea of Earth as a test for immortality.

Do you really think that if God created a soul that he would need to test it to see if it was good or not? Why even create a test if you know the answers already?

Actually, being born in a Muslim family does not guarantee a ticket to heaven.

I never said that. But according to the rules as you believe them it certainly makes that persons chances a lot better than the person born into a Christian family in Brazil or a Hindu family in India.

First off, you can't just cite some alleged statistics in reference to people's personal choices as if such a thing simply settles the matter.

Are you denying that parentage is the number one factor in determining someones religion?

Fifth, you still need to learn the difference between a game and a test. A dictionary would be a great deal of help in this regard.

Like I said, it is a game for God. It is a test for humans. It changes based on the perspective.

An analogy would be a world class chess match. For the participants it is a job. For the spectators it is entertainment.

A job is not entertainment, but in this case the situation can be described as both.

Sixth, condemnation to hell does not happen "right off the bat", or else d-a-m-n-ed people would always be stillborn. One cannot be punished for decisions one has not already made.

True, but it certainly changes the odds.

If you are born to Japanese parents your odds of becoming Muslim are about .2%. If you are born to parents in Pakistan then your odds of becoming Muslim are about 96%. Hardly seems fair, does it?

What is the point of a test to determine the fate of your soul if the main factors are parentage and geography? It's absurd.

 

[Lynx]

I hardly know where to begin. First off, you can't just cite some alleged statistics in reference to people's personal choices as if such a thing simply settles the matter. Even if you're an absolute determinist you still have to account for other factors. Second, none of my own experience has shown me that people who are raised atheists are any likelier to break away from their atheism. Kurt Vonnegut would be a well known example of this similarity. By his own admission he was an atheist pretty much just because he was brought up that way. Go look around in countries with anti-religious culture like Communist states. Third, there is no reason why someone being brought up to believe anything is any more or less likely to hold a true belief. Fourth, if you really understood Islam then you would know (perhaps I can't blame you; lots of Muslims also don't) that it is not 100% exclusivist. See, for example, the final verse of the Koran's second surah. Fifth, you still need to learn the difference between a game and a test. A dictionary would be a great deal of help in this regard. Sixth, condemnation to hell does not happen "right off the bat", or else d-a-m-n-ed people would always be stillborn. One cannot be punished for decisions one has not already made. There's probably a seventh and an eighth but I think I've said enough.

I hardly know where to begin. First off, you can't just cite some alleged statistics in reference to people's personal choices as if such a thing simply settles the matter. Even if you're an absolute determinist you still have to account for other factors.

So you're disputing the fact that one's religious beliefs are largely influenced by one's upbringing? I don't want to speak for titus but it seems he was saying that people born under these types of conditions have a huge advantage in this 'test' if the test is indeed finding Allah. So it may be true that there are 'other factors' as you put it, however, the point is that the test conditions favour some people much more than other people.

Fourth, if you really understood Islam then you would know (perhaps I can't blame you; lots of Muslims also don't) that it is not 100% exclusivist. See, for example, the final verse of the Koran's second surah.

This is interesting. Are you saying a person who denies 'there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his (last) messenger' can enter heaven if he/she dies with this belief (or lack of)? Please explain the conditions and provide evidence. I read the last verse of al baqarah and I have an idea where you're going with this but I'd like to hear it from you

 

[IAmZamzam]

Do you really think that if God created a soul that he would need to test it to see if it was good or not? Why even create a test if you know the answers already?

Because the one taking the test doesn’t know the answers, obviously. I mean, duh. A soul isn’t good until it’s had an opportunity to be good.

I never said that. But according to the rules as you believe them it certainly makes that persons chances a lot better than the person born into a Christian family in Brazil or a Hindu family in India. Are you denying that parentage is the number one factor in determining someones religion?...If you are born to Japanese parents your odds of becoming Muslim are about .2%. If you are born to parents in Pakistan then your odds of becoming Muslim are about 96%. Hardly seems fair, does it? What is the point of a test to determine the fate of your soul if the main factors are parentage and geography? It's absurd.

you can't just cite some alleged statistics in reference to people's personal choices as if such a thing simply settles the matter. Even if you're an absolute determinist you still have to account for other factors.

People are not numbers. People are not ruled by statistics. By your own logic you could write someone off as a hoodlum from the moment of their birth if there is a statistic alleging 85% of the population around them before their birth has been convicted of crimes at some point. According, of course, to some survey examining a fraction of one percent of the actual population, or some census most people probably B.S.’ed their way through the eight or nine years prior to the birth it was actually taken.

 

[IAmZamzam]

This is interesting. Are you saying a person who denies 'there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his (last) messenger' can enter heaven if he/she dies with this belief (or lack of)? Please explain the conditions and provide evidence. I read the last verse of al baqarah and I have an idea where you're going with this but I'd like to hear it from you

You've already heard it. Knowing the actual, literal meaning of "kafir" might help you as well, as well as the full details of the much misunderstood notion of qadar, which I have already gone into repeatedly on this board. (In short, we're judged by our intentions in this life, not by our outward actions themselves.) I refuse to grace any question with a response that contains the term "lack of belief", as hearing those words from a nontheist sets off my B.S. alarm as surely as hearing the words "energy" or "vibration" from a spiritualist. If I ignore that part of the sentence and touch only on the rest, my answer is "yes"; Allah finds it better that someone would believe in an incorrect notion for the right reasons than that they believe in a correct notion for the wrong ones. Ethics trumps accuracy. I am not emotionally encouraged, however, by the behavior I usually see atheists exhibiting, especially when they're discussing theism or religion. If they are in a more "risky" situation then it is only the fault of the particular individual and perhaps a collective coincidence.

 

[GuestFellow]

If God is omnipotent then that means that he created Earth, Heaven, Hell, people, Satan, Angels, etc. of his own free will. He created the idea of Earth as a test for immortality.

Do you really think that if God created a soul that he would need to test it to see if it was good or not? Why even create a test if you know the answers already?

So you consider this test to be a game because the creator of this test knows the outcome? It must be some boring game. I think games should be entertaining...so I fail to see this as a game. Why would God use this test to entertain himself?

The people involved in the test don't know the outcome of this test. This test is for us.

I never said that.

I know.

You said that people born in a certain religion will have the upper hand. I'm stating this is not the case because we all start off being born sinless and we are all exposed to factors that can turn us away from Islam and commit sins.

 

[IAmZamzam]

We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport. Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves: by no means would We do (it). (Koran 21:16-17, Shakir)

 

[CosmicPathos]

titus used to be a christian, no?

 

[Lynx]

You've already heard it. Knowing the actual, literal meaning of "kafir" might help you as well, as well as the full details of the much misunderstood notion of qadar, which I have already gone into repeatedly on this board. (In short, we're judged by our intentions in this life, not by our outward actions themselves.) I refuse to grace any question with a response that contains the term "lack of belief", as hearing those words from a nontheist sets off my B.S. alarm as surely as hearing the words "energy" or "vibration" from a spiritualist. If I ignore that part of the sentence and touch only on the rest, my answer is "yes"; Allah finds it better that someone would believe in an incorrect notion for the right reasons than that they believe in a correct notion for the wrong ones. Ethics trumps accuracy. I am not emotionally encouraged, however, by the behavior I usually see atheists exhibiting, especially when they're discussing theism or religion. If they are in a more "risky" situation then it is only the fault of the particular individual and perhaps a collective coincidence.

Okay to sum up, from what I remember, your interpretation of qadr was that our actions are predetermined but our intentions are not so we are judged by our intentions rather than our actions - correct me if I am wrong since I haven't followed all your posts on the topic. I don't think your interpretation of qadr is coherent but let's assume that it is for the sake of staying on topic. Let's take an example of an atheist named Bob. If Bob earnestly searched for the truth and after many years of searching Bob concludes a) all religions as we know it are too ridiculous to have come from any sort of deity and b) there is nothing indicated that a deity exists and c) if there is a deity it must deliberately be trying to hide its existence because there is no indication of this deity's existence. Consequently, Bob, being a reasonable person, maintains his atheism and 100 years later Bob dies; he was gifted with an above average lifetime.

Is it possible for Bob to go to heaven if it turns out Islam is true (under your interpretation of it since you're obviously unorthodox)?

 

[IAmZamzam]

Subtly loading a question by placing contestable and argumentative premises all over it as supposed conditionals ("it's not coherent but let's say it is...", "under your interpretation since you're obviously unorthodox"), whether done intentionally and in an ulterior way or not, is still loading it. If I answer without addressing those sneaked-in conditionals then I give the appearance of ceding the point, or at least letting you have the final say. (And if I answer and do address them I'll be going off topic.) That aside, the question itself is one I have already answered in other forms more than once on this very page. I have made myself infinitely clear already and I doubt that anyone reading what I have said other than you would find any ambiguity.

 

[Gator]

Originally Posted by Gator
You'd probably have to do a lot better to reach a god status

Like what?

Good Question. I'm with titus on the tricks thing, but I'd say if she said there will be no more SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome) or maybe have the israelis and palestinians live in peace and harmony, and then it happens overnight for a few years, then I'd be a little more inclined to believe. You need something really big that couldn't be a quirk of nature or faked. Also, answer all my questions as to why things don't seem like there's a god.

I don't know what you are looking for here, if anything other than curiosity. Hope this helps.

 

[Lynx]

Subtly loading a question by placing contestable and argumentative premises all over it as supposed conditionals ("it's not coherent but let's say it is...", "under your interpretation since you're obviously unorthodox"), whether done intentionally and in an ulterior way or not, is still loading it.

the presence of those statements in the brackets do not change the content of my post. paranoid much?

If I answer without addressing those sneaked-in conditionals then I give the appearance of ceding the point, or at least letting you have the final say.
(And if I answer and do address them I'll be going off topic.)

There is nothing 'sneaked in'; what I wrote is for everyone to see. i think your explanation of qadr was incoherent so i added 'let's assume' that it's true for the sake of topic. if you have a problem with that then you have a weird definition of what a loaded conditional means.

That aside, the question itself is one I have already answered in other forms more than once on this very page. I have made myself infinitely clear already and I doubt that anyone reading what I have said other than you would find any ambiguity.

no your posts were vague so i wanted a concrete example of someone that had the right 'intentions' and questionable actions.

but hey, you are free to reply to whatever you want. no pressure.

 

[GuestFellow]

Also, answer all my questions as to why things don't seem like there's a god.

I don't know what you are looking for here, if anything other than curiosity. Hope this helps.

Yes, it was curiosity.

 

[Woodrow]

This has gone a step to far.

:threadclo: