To atheists...

[root]

Steve - I'm curious though Root: What would a hypotetical revelation/religion need in order for you to BELIEVE in it?

it's a double edged sword that question. Personally all religions proclaim a scientific suspension of the known laws of physics to express a miraculous event, in my humble opinion and being around this forum for quite a long time I feel religion has a purpose in life but cannot offer the reason for life.

If we take away God for one second and consider an "Intelligent Designer" as proposed under ID, then I am not so sure any religion would be prepared to accept a truth if it was presented to them clearly concisely and beyond all reasonable doubt. Assume further, we were shown to be in a "simulated universe" that super intelligent beings had not specifically set out to create us but acknowledged our type of life was predicted and many such indpendent intelligent life also existed within their simulation. Would you accept them as your God, perhaps they could even offer the reason why it all began conclusively and delivered the bad news God was not someone they were firmiliar with. What then of your thoughts to your faith.

As for "proof" God does exist I think I have to add to that and at what point would I accept it. Perhaps it's a little too late for "proof", our discoveries about our universe have not exactly confirmed what ANY religion has proposed to be the truth, sure we can spin things, interpret them the way we think it should be interprated based on what scientific discovery suggests. Nothing short now of a modern day suspension of the known laws of physics creating a clear miraculous event would ever claw back the credability all religions have lost and continue to lose amongst the bickering and squabbling over whome is the correct faith.

 

[Woodrow]

You converted from atheism to Islam, Woodrow, didn't you?
What did it take to convince you? Was it a sudden revelation upon reading the Qur'an, as Marya seems to indicate? Or something else?
Or were you secretly still a believer, but disppointed with your previous faith and actually looking elsewhere?

I do think there are atheists who fall into this 'searching' group.
But others are utterly clear that they do neither need nor seek a divine influence in their lives.And I agree with you, for those people no proof would ever be good enough. Even God standing on your doorstep could be put down to hallucinations or mental disorders ... :rollseyes

Peace.

You converted from atheism to Islam, Woodrow, didn't you?


Close but not quite. I started off as a Roman Catholic. While in my 20's became Buddhist, (reality was an agnostic calling myself Buddhist) spent nearly 40 years in that mode, then reverted to Islam.

I've posted my revision story several times in this forum, so I wont hijack this thread by repeating it here.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

it's a double edged sword that question. Personally all religions proclaim a scientific suspension of the known laws of physics to express a miraculous event, in my humble opinion and being around this forum for quite a long time I feel religion has a purpose in life but cannot offer the reason for life.

If we take away God for one second and consider an "Intelligent Designer" as proposed under ID, then I am not so sure any religion would be prepared to accept a truth if it was presented to them clearly concisely and beyond all reasonable doubt. Assume further, we were shown to be in a "simulated universe" that super intelligent beings had not specifically set out to create us but acknowledged our type of life was predicted and many such indpendent intelligent life also existed within their simulation. Would you accept them as your God, perhaps they could even offer the reason why it all began conclusively and delivered the bad news God was not someone they were firmiliar with. What then of your thoughts to your faith.

As for "proof" God does exist I think I have to add to that and at what point would I accept it. Perhaps it's a little too late for "proof", our discoveries about our universe have not exactly confirmed what ANY religion has proposed to be the truth, sure we can spin things, interpret them the way we think it should be interprated based on what scientific discovery suggests. Nothing short now of a modern day suspension of the known laws of physics creating a clear miraculous event would ever claw back the credability all religions have lost and continue to lose amongst the bickering and squabbling over whome is the correct faith.

Did i understand that correctly? That there aren't any charesteristics a religion could contain in order for you to believe in it?

 

[Woodrow]

Did i understand that correctly? That there aren't any charesteristics a religion could contain in order for you to believe in it?

That is how I also understand it Steve. Yet, he makes sense. The interesting thing is that all of Allah's(swt) works can have an explanation other then Allah(swt). We believe in Allah(swt) because of what he has told us, not because of what he has done. If our belief was based simply on example of His Might, we would have no choice about belief. Atheists are a gift to this earth as they do verify that we do have free will and are not under compulsion to believe.

 

[glo]

You converted from atheism to Islam, Woodrow, didn't you?


Close but not quite. I started off as a Roman Catholic. While in my 20's became Buddhist, (reality was an agnostic calling myself Buddhist) spent nearly 40 years in that mode, then reverted to Islam.

I've posted my revision story several times in this forum, so I wont hijack this thread by repeating it here.

My mistake.
I seemed to remember that you were an atheist for a while before finding Islam. I had not realised that you had left the Catholic faith so early in life either.
I must go and find your conversion story ...

Peace.

 

[Joe98]

That there aren't any characteristics a religion could contain in order for you to believe in it?

Correct. That goes for me too.

 

[duskiness]

We believe in Allah(swt) because of what he has told us, not because of what he has done. If our belief was based simply on example of His Might, we would have no choice about belief. Atheists are a gift to this earth as they do verify that we do have free will and are not under compulsion to believe.

- i liked that! I remember i read something similar to your statment: atheists are question mark to believers, and believers are question mark to atheists (...i think it was Ratzinger when He was still Ratzinger )
It may aslo be true to Muslim-Christian relationship...
n.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Correct. That goes for me too.

so in other words, even if religion would be accurate; you'd still wouldn't believe in it?

 

[Woodrow]

so in other words, even if religion would be accurate; you'd still wouldn't believe in it?

We who believe in God(swt) tend to become impatiant with those that don't. We do have a hard time understanding their disbelief. Often we view it as stubborness and/or arrogance. Perhaps, we need to understand that their own philosophy on life is their choice and their right. We do not need to prove anything and nobody needs to prove anything to us.

All any of us can do is state why we believe what we do, yet accept the persons right to not understand what we feel.

Somebody once said "To a believer no proof is needed, to an unbeliever no proof is sufficient." When we attempt to prove our beliefs to another in concrete terms, often we end up dealing in areas we have no expertise. When we try to persuade, we face the danger of appearing to be trying to convince ourselves.

Belief in God(swt) is both simple and complex. To a person who desires to believe, all is seen as proof. To a person who desires not to believe, alternate explantions are given for every stated proof.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Well I'm not out to prove anything. And I do understand their p.o.v. I was an atheist for the longest part of my life, and not just out of absence of religion, but really out of being convinced. I'm only trying to make things clear, to challange people to think things trough.

 

[Joe98]

By Allah, this world in comparison to the hereafter is nothing but as though one of you dipped his finger in the sea. So ponder how much, the finger returns with.

Religion can never be accurate. Its based on faith and superstition.

 

[Woodrow]

Religion can never be accurate. Its based on faith and superstition.

I hope that one day my faith will be as strong as your faith is. Your tenacity in your beliefs is very admirable. I will say you have shown the courage and stamina to stand by your convictions and to be fair I believe you also support our right to stand by ours.

 

[Annie]

Salams
The Quran is the proof that Allah exists
Wasalm Annie

 

[3iraqiyya]

"So let them flounder (in their talk) and play until they meet the Day which they are promised" [43:83]



((There is no God but He: It is He Who gives life and gives death- The Lord and Cherisher to you and your earliest ancestors.

Yet they play about in doubt.

Then watch thou for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke plainly visible,

Enveloping the people: this will be a Penalty Grievous.

(They will say) "Our Lord! Remove the Penalty from us, for we do really beleive!"

How shall the message be (effectuall) for them, seeing that a messenger explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,

Yet they turn away from him and say: 'Tutored (by others), a man possessed!' )) [44:9-15]



((Most surely they do say:

"There is nothing beyond our first death, and we shall not be raised again".

"Then bring (back) our forefathers, if what ye say is true!" ...)) [44:35-37]



((..(they say) "Does he promise you that when you die and are dust and bones, you will be brought (out of the graves)?"

"Away, away with whatever you are promised!"

"Decidedly there is nothing except our present life. We die and we live, and in no way will we be made to rise again."

"Decidedly he is nothing except a man... and in no way will we (become) believers to him". ))


((And have they not looked into the dominion of the heavens and the earth and what things Allah has created, and that may be that their term has already drawn near? So, in whichever discourse after (this) are they to beleive?

Whomever Allah leads into error, then no guide he has, and He leaves them blundering in their inordinance. )) [7:185-186]

 

[iLL_LeaT]

I hope that one day my faith will be as strong as your faith is. Your tenacity in your beliefs is very admirable. I will say you have shown the courage and stamina to stand by your convictions and to be fair I believe you also support our right to stand by ours.

LOL… Oh how true!

The existance of god is not proveable. The non-existaqnce of god is not proveable.

Also very true! As we can see from this thread, a general consensus God’s existence will never be decided.

Logically, could there be a God? Unfortunately, with how humans determine logic, as of now, it would be hard to logically conclude that there is any kind of God. That is only because logical ideas are based off of evidence and life experiences, and the only “evidence” we have comes from science. And we will not have any kind of evidence any time soon, if ever, that will prove the existence of God. As science evolves, the idea of reality also evolves. As unfathomable concepts become testable, the unknown becomes known. Who knows, perhaps someday the afterlife and the existence of God will be testable, and then the existence of God will have some place in logic. But until then, God has no place in logic. Those of us who have a hard time thinking any way but logically, it is hard to say, “There is a God!”

What about freewill though? A big thing with Christians is freewill. The biggest part of freewill (in my option) is the ability to think there is no god at all. For people to have the ability to logically conclude that there is a God would take that free will away, and that is why it is (and probably will always will be) impossible to prove. And for some odd reason, humans tend to think that they have the potential to be smarter then God himself, but if God does not want to be found, he will not be found. (This is of course all assuming that there is a God).

With this freewill thing, what does that say about Muhammad, Jesus, Mosses, etc? Are they fakes? Could be, but also with this freewill needs to be the ability to find God.

Really, the argument of the existence of God can be argued an infinite number of ways, and it never changes anything or anyone’s opinion because nothing is provable. It really is pointless. For any personal religious changes to be made, it would have to be made by the individual.

The existence of God is based on faith, and the non-existence of God is also based on faith.

 

[Idris]

Ancient Greek philosophy.. wow I wished they ever invented this, life would had be straightforward, simple, uncomplicated but this is a test and it's not going to be easy.

Yet they play about in doubt.

Then watch thou for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke plainly visible,

Enveloping the people: this will be a Penalty Grievous.

(They will say "Our Lord! Remove the Penalty from us, for we do really beleive!"

How shall the message be (effectuall) for them, seeing that a messenger explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,

Yet they turn away from him and say: 'Tutored (by others), a man possessed!' )) [44:9-15]

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Ancient Greek philosophy.. wow I wished they ever invented this, life would had be straightforward, simple, uncomplicated but this is a test and it's not going to be easy.

I'm not quite sure if I've understood you correctly, but are you actually saying you object to Ancient Greek philosophy? If so, why?

It essentially forms the start of Western intellectual history, and I think the world would be much poorer without it.

Peace

 

[Link]

The existance of God can be proven logically to yourself if not to others. The problem with proving it to others is that sometimes we differ on intuitive things, like cause and effect, and other things. So if someone refuses to accept 1 plus 1 = 2, then how can you teach him mulitiplication?

We need to start with somethings we agree upon, if a person rejects some of the basic things that most people would not reject, then ofcourse you can't prove anything to him.

 

[Joe98]

The existance of God can be proven logically.

No it cannot. And that is why religion is based on faith.

If you even attempt to prove the existance of god it means you don't have faith in your own religion.

 

[Ghazi]

No it cannot. And that is why religion is based on faith.

If you even attempt to prove the existance of god it means you don't have faith in your own religion.

Huh? you sitting there while you disobey your creator is evidence for me that the "most-merciful" exists.