To be a good Muslim do I have to hate Homosexuals ?

[Hamza Asadullah]

As Muslims we hate anything that Allah hath forbidden upon us. Therefore we hate the sin and not the sinner. We hate it because Allah hates it. For Allah created it in the first place for a test upon mankind and he also advised us for it or against it. In this case he advised us against homosexuality and has set prescribed punishments upon those who indulge in it. Homosexuality may be a test for many and those who resist the urges and desire will be rewarded accordingly and those who are caught committing the act "under a shariah system" will be punished accordingly but as always even if there was a shariah system in place it is quite difficult to implement such a punishment because of certain criterea being met like the need for witnesses etc.

Therefore the people who do commit such an act under the shariah would be likely not to recieve such a punishment in the majority of cases but if they do then it is for the betterment of society as a clear deterrant for society as a whole to keep away from such vile acts. As we can see in todays modern societies homosexuality is being promoted and it is even being debated in the Church whether there should be gay Bishops and gay marriage or not. Therefore Christians have gone against their own scriptures like they have done in many of their fundamental concepts and that is why it is a religion that has clearly gone astray very early on after the ascension of Isa (As) until this very day where the fundamental concepts are continuously being changed, ammended, added to and deleted.

Islam is dynamic and will always be relevant at all times from now until the last day on Earth. It does NOT comprimise on the fundamentals and that which is clearly forbidden or clearly permissable and anything in between is carefully treated according to the Qur'an, sunnah and the understanding of over a 1000 years of scholarly works. That is why Islam is so unique and there is and there wil always be nothing like it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Assalamu-alaikum,


I think there are 2 categories of people with regards to homosexuality/ gender identity issues.

First is the type that brother 'Abd-al-Latif mentions of:

The person who is born with normal sexual tendencies, but due to social conditioning - makes a choice/ conscious decision to pursue relationships of the same gender.
These are the people of Lot - who intentionally committed these abominations, and who are warned of a severe punishment.

The next group are those people, who by no fault of their own areborn with medical conditions that fall under Disorders of Sexual Differentiation - examples of these being Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (excessive androgen production due to an enzyme deficiency), Klinefelters Syndrome (males who carry an extra X chromosome - 46 XXY), mixed gonadal abnormalities, Hermaphrodites (presence of ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual) - to name just a few......

In these conditions, patients often have 'ambigious' genitals - i.e. its difficult to determine physically whether it is a boy/ girl - associated with confusion of sexual inclination.
Often these patients need surgical reconstruction, and a psychological assessment to decide which gender the individual is inclined towards.

And for a muslim afflicted by one of these conditions - can you imagine the trial that he/she faces to actively try and ward him/ herself from deviant sexual inclination.
What immense reward he will earn for doing so, purely for the pleasure of Allah (subhanawataála).



Having said this, it should be noted that these conditions are rare, with the majority of homosexual cases falling into the first group.

The reason I am mentioning this, is to stress that it is NOT up to us to judge anyone.
Allah (subhanawataála) alone knows what trials He has placed in an individuals life, and He is the best of Judgers.

So, the next time you see a homosexual person - stop yourself, and give him the benefit of the doubt - in all likelihood, he has fallen into the traps of Shaytaan.......but perhaps there is more than meets the eye......


:wa:

w salam

people with klinefelters dont feel attraction towards same sex, they feel that they are males, yet are infertile. there is nothing about xxy pathophysio that'd make them feel attracted to same gender i.e. males. Moreover, these ppl have tons of othre issues, muscle weaknesses, osteoporosis etc, I doubt they'd be going all out in gay prides

as for congenital adrenal hyperplasia, i am not sure if it affects the "desires" of that patient. 21 hydroxylase deficient females will have virilization and hirsutism, but how would it effect their "desire" towards males? Some females might have ovarian failure and no puberty such as those with 17 hydroxylase deficiency but I am not sure if these ppl aer gay in the true sense of the word.

 

[Abu.Yusuf]

The ability to judge as in you're going to hell, you're going to heaven, you're evil, you're good, you're pious, you're loosely moraled' and I am willing to recant my position-I am not above learning.

And you also mentioned: "When you pass a judgement with such absolution you take away someone's hope and possibility of ever repenting."


In terms of agreeing with each other, I think the main problem we are having is understanding the term 'judging'. What exactly do we mean by that word? I think we need to be synchronised before we can speak about it/agree...

If by judging we mean to judge someone to be a person of hell fire or paradise - this is completely not allowed. No person can ever testify to that. Even if we know someone who died Shaheed, we say 'he is in Jannah Inshaa`Allaah' not 'he is defo in Jannah'.
However, if a baby/child was to die, then we can say he is in Jannah.

Regards to Hell fire, when we know someone who died as a Kaafir [e.g. atheist, Jew, Christian etc] and we are sure he died as a Kaafir, then we can testify that they are in hell fire. Hence, we do not pray Janaazah for them.
With regards to who is right or wrong, bad or good etc, we can say someone is good or bad - but obviously if they change then we dont call them good anymore [or bad].
The general ruling on how to think someone is good or bad is to judge them by their speech and actions. 'Umar [ra] said that after the death of the Nabi [saw], we cannot know what people have in their hearts so we can only judge what is apparent [paraphrased].

And the examples I gave about this type of judging was not only to do with commanding good and forbidding evil...[which is sufficient on its own anyway], I also mentioned about marriage and companionship.
Another one to mention, and which made it possible for our Deen to be original and not changed, is the judgements of the Muhadditheen. The Scholars who collected Hadeeth were always judging who is reliable and who is not, who is trustworthy and who is not. They even wrote specific books exposing people and judging them to be liars, untrustworthy etc. If this was not done, this Deen would not have been as it is now.

Also, Allaah says 'if a Faasiq [sinner] comes to you with news, verify it' - so it is important to distinguish who a Faasiq is and who is not in order to obey Allahs command in this Verse.

Theres a more as well, I think it may need a separate thread. If it doesnt exist already i might do it later inshaaAllaah.

 

[Abu.Yusuf]

Just to add.... in this topic, we are not talking about treating someone badly, looking down upon them, thinking you are better than them etc.

Even if someone was a Kaafir, we dont go round beating him up, abusing him etc. If a Muslim was s sinner, we still give him his rights [of Salam, visiting him when hes sick etc] and we stil are OBLIGED to have love for him as a brother. We do not look down upon him and become arrogant....

All that i am saying in the discussion is that having judgments about others/having an opinion about others [however its best to say it] is part of the Deen....

 

[~Zaria~]

@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Theres a more as well, I think it may need a separate thread. If it doesnt exist already i might do it later inshaaAllaah.

Insha'Allah.. however I'd classify them as
1- Enjoining what is good and forbidding evil
2- The science of hadith
3- A judiciary matter
4- A case of having multiple witnesses (which again would go under number 3)
I truly fear of passing a judgment by the very definition of the word that one would end up falling into a whole other brand of sin..

 

[جوري]

@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:

I don't agree with you often sister but this is definitely a matter where we're 100% on the same page .. there are a host of such anomalies-- 5-alpha reductase deficiency, Androgen insensitivity syndrome, males may even be born with uteruses under the influence of Müllerian inhibiting hormone.. So there's a whole gamut of things that influence our psychology .. but as with any other disease or condition one can give into the 'why me' or they can try their best to fight it with whatever that entails of patience and good deeds insha'Allah..

 

[Abu.Yusuf]

Insha'Allah.. however I'd classify them as
1- Enjoining what is good and forbidding evil
2- The science of hadith
3- A judiciary matter
4- A case of having multiple witnesses (which again would go under number 3)
I truly fear of passing a judgment by the very definition of the word that one would end up falling into a whole other brand of sin..

We can classify them the way we feel would be best to understand easier inshaaAllaah.

Before I open the thread, can you explain how exactly we should define 'judging; judgement'. And what would you call it when ppl 'judge' a person in relation to the examples I gave [e.g. marriage, companionship etc]. JZK

 

[جوري]

can you explain how exactly we should define 'judging; judgement'.

The definition as I understand and per dictionary is: Form a critical opinion of/ to brand someone with/Accuse or condemn openly or formally; classify or describe as-- with whatever that entails of ensuing actions/words/deeds...

but you know I do understand where you're coming from in cases where a person is so overtly evil and people need to be warned of their evil..

 

[GuestFellow]

As Muslims we hate anything that Allah hath forbidden upon us. Therefore we hate the sin and not the sinner. We hate it because Allah hates it. For Allah created it in the first place for a test upon mankind and he also advised us for it or against it. In this case he advised us against homosexuality and has set prescribed punishments upon those who indulge in it. Homosexuality may be a test for many and those who resist the urges and desire will be rewarded accordingly and those who are caught committing the act "under a shariah system" will be punished accordingly but as always even if there was a shariah system in place it is quite difficult to implement such a punishment because of certain criterea being met like the need for witnesses etc.

Salaam,

I hope I do not come across as rude but I think the witness requirement should not be required in some cases. Sometimes, people record themselves performing homosexual acts and post it on websites. In this case, can the witness requirement be waived? It is open to public to see and many people will have viewed it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:

ok, we first have to define how Islam looks at maleness and femaleness. On basis of Y chromosome or on basis of genitalia?

so are you saying that masculinized females have attraction towards males? I'll be honest, I have not interacted clinically with many such patients, so I dont know what their sexual preferences are, and I doubt any text discusses where i can read up, but I dont see how hormones can affect how we feel towards our gender identity in such a way that we start feeling like totally opposite (a male with low testosterone wont behave like normal males but I doubt all of sudden he'd become interested in males cuz he now feels like a female :S). Normal females also have testosterone for libido, you are saying if this testo increases a bit too much, these females will start to feel they are males and start having desires towards females??

on the contrary, in-utero, these abnormalities in hormones COULD affect how we feel about our gender identity later on in life regardless of the type of genitalia.
yes, chromosomal abnormalities are rare and I doubt that when we are talking about gays, we are talking about these severely sick people.

 

[Ramadan90]

But what is increasingly suggested by recent research is that homosexual tendencies are not always acquired, and that some individuals are born with them as an identifiable irregularity in the chromosomes. The implications of this for moral theology are clear: given the Quran's insistence that human beings are responsible only for actions they have voluntarily acquired, homosexuality as an innate disposition cannot be a sin.​

It does not follow from this, of course, that acting in accordance with such a tendency is justifiable. Similar research has indicated that many human tendencies, including forms of criminal behaviour, are also on occasion traceable to genetic disorders; and yet nobody would conclude that the behaviour was therefore legitimate. Instead, we are learning that just as God has given people differing physical and intellectual gifts, He tests some of us by implanting moral tendencies which we must struggle to overcome as part of our self-reform and discipline. A mental patient with an obsessive desire to set fire to houses has been given a particular hurdle to overcome. A man or woman with strong homosexual urges faces the same challenge.

Written by a very knowledgeable muslim: Abdal hakim murad.

Which brings back to what I wrote before: It is the action itself that is a sin.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad08.htm




​

 

[~ Sabr ~]

:salamext:

Supporting Gay/Lesbian people is wrong.