To muslims are atheists worse than other theists?

[Pygoscelis]

:salamext:

That is what the truth is lol.

So you do not believe in non-belief? Are we atheists who claim we do not believe in God (as opposed to believing but refusing to follow) all liars in your eyes? I don't take offence if this is the case, I just honestly want to know if I understand you correctly.

I have experienced the opposite. For many years I was convinced that nobody truly believed in God and that they just pretended to because that is the cultural norm. I still believe that a large number of "believers" do this.

 

[kay106]

If you think that is proof, I have a bridge I will sell you, cheep.

That is like "Preaching to the Choir". No one will believe it but the believers.

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

Ok let me tell a little bit about these miracles,

Today is an age of science and technology. People use science see science as their ultimate criteria, but your science is LATE!

Example - What is the probability of someone 14 centrys ago, know that this whole universe was connected together in a single entity?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

what is the probality of someone 14 centuries ago knowing that this whole universe is expading?

from this we can easily conclude that the quran is far superor than that of science!

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

The quran challeges you to find a contradiction in it, has anyone ever been successful?

common use your reason!

 

[Gator]

This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD?

That was not what I was getting at. Did you read me response (it was short). Sorry I couldn't communicate it better.

Thanks.

 

[kay106]

Sure.

I'm talking about the pattern the poured sand makes. The chances of that pile of sand taking that exact shape down to the grain is very very small.

The point is the pattern that resulted had a very low probability, and there was no conscious thought behind the placement of each grain, but it did happen.

Basically I'm saying, I believe the universe is more like that poured sand (no conscous order) than your marbles marked 1 to 10 (conscious order).

Does that help you? Let me know if I'm communicating poorly.

In other words you think this whole universe come out just by chance?
Ok let me give you another example if you blow up a building, does it turn ito a few small houses, do you see planets, stars? could they be formed from an explosion, is that possible? do you the chance of a single proton being in existance by chance, just a small proton, do you know what the scientists have concluded on that? I have send you very interesting videos if you want, hope that helps.

 

[kay106]

Randomly pick them out again. Note the order they came out in. The odds of that order (which just happened) is also close to zero. Further note that if the universe had not unfolded the way it did, we may not be here to observe it. Further note that the universe is far from perfect.

How many big bangs were there?

 

[kay106]

It isn't the preponderant view... neither position is. It doesn't even require "modern" philosophy, the same old arguments have been recycled for the best part of two millennia. The trouble is that arguments both ways, beimg perfectly respectable philosophical ones, rely on 'logic' and 'reason'. All, however have certain assumptions as premises the truth of which the other side can never accept. Your theologians don't 'blast' anybody anywhere any more than the philosophers do.

Personally I decided 'logic and reason' was a huge red herring when it comes to religion years ago. Whatever ultimate reality may be it is far too big for such limited concepts to grasp, and like most who follow any Eastern tradition I put far more weight in experiential religion. Revealed religion is no more an a person or persons' attempt to record and interpret such experiences. IMHO, obviously.. you won't agree with that, either!

can you give an example? or is this another one of your athest theories?

 

[kay106]

If there is an all powerfull God and he wishes to be known and understood, then he would be known and understood. There would be no need for holy books, prophets, or preachers. We would simply know what he wished us to know. To claim anything less is to limit God's omnipotence.

So I say the mere existence of the holy books proves either that they are false or that the God they depict does not wish to be clearly known to and understood by us all.

How do you know what god wants and does not want, do you have proof? Do you have a revealved scripture, have you spoken to him? see what I mean about nonsense, theories, assumptions, you atheists make? Common use your reason!

 

[kay106]

Sorry for sounding harsh to my searching atheist brothers and sisters, I really dont mean it.

 

[kay106]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

 

[root]

Kay106 - Posted scientific evidence Prof More supporting Islamic claims. What a load of crap

Geee, is Islam so desperate for validation that they go to such lengths to misrepresent scientists. It's a down and out fraud that was rumbled a couple of years ago. Here is an E-Mail from prof W. Hay;

25 January 2006

Hello T.H.,

It’s a long story about how they got that clip/quote from me, and I would be happy to tell you more about it if you give me a phone call at (XXX)XXX-XXXX.

In brief, in 1983 or 1984 two Saudi's approached the Geological Society of America to locate experts on certain aspects of Geology which might Relate to the Koran. At that time our understanding was that the Saudis wanted to make it possible for science to flourish in the Arab countries as it once had, but the religious authorities stood in the way. The Royal Family sponsored a "holy man", Sheik Zindani for this project. Accordingly, I was flown to Jedda, and met with the Sheik for the better part of a week.

For me one of the questions concerned a passage in the Koran that seems to refer to internal waves in the ocean, ad the idea was that these had been discovered only recently.

I suggested that perhaps Mohammed was highly intelligent, and a good observer, and had been on a sea voyage. In case you are not aware of it, proper Islamics believe that Mohammed was uneducated, illiterate, and to attribute a high level of intelligence to him is heresy. Also, the Sheik and colleagues insisted that he never saw the sea (in spite of the fact that Mecca and Medina) are almost in sight of the Red Sea.

I suggested that perhaps he had friends who were observant sailors, again heresy. So after one long afternoon on a boat in the hot sun, all of the caveats having been rejected you come to divine inspiration! So none of my skepticism was reflected.

I gave a geological lecture at the university in Jedda, and talking with faculty there I got the impression that the assumption that the goal was to make the pursuit of science safe was essentially correct.

When I got back to the US I started to look into how old information about internal waves was, and discovered that the Vikings certainly knew about the phenomenon, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Greeks/Romans knew about it, and almost certainly the Arabs, who were the best sailors, would have had some experience with this phenomenon (in practical terms where there is a sharp interface within the water, the waves on this interface control the motion of the boat so that it does not correspond to the surface waves or currents).

We then had a conference organized by Sheik Zindani in Islamabad bringing together most all of the non-Islamic scientists he had conferred with.

We were asked to prepare papers to be published in the Conference Proceedings, and mine included what I had been able to learn about possible ancient knowledge of internal waves in the ocean. Needless to say it did not get included in the published proceedings.

We now know that all of this had another aspect. At the meeting in Pakistan it became apparent that the topic of science that should have no interference from clerics was related to the development of nuclear weapons. It has also turned out that Sheik Zindani is a major supporter of Osama bin Laden.

The parallels of Islamic fundamentalism and modern US Christian fundamentalism are amazing. My European colleagues often refer to us as Iran-west.

I did a long interview with an investigative reporter for the Wall Street Journal on Sheik Zindani and his cohorts in 2000, but unfortunately I do not have a copy of the published article anymore.

Incidentally, most of me early paleontologic career was devoted to study of coccoliths, the tiny fossils that were the topic of T. H. Huxley's famous lecture "On a Piece of Chalk."

We have so far managed to hold off "intelligent design" from the public schools here, but our local fundamentalists are very persistent.

Yours sincerely,

Bill Hay

BUMP! :hiding:

 

[syilla]

erm...probably he has to explain why there is a video of him saying the shahadah :hmm:

 

[Gator]

In other words you think this whole universe come out just by chance?

Yes.

 

[wilberhum]

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

Ok let me tell a little bit about these miracles,

Today is an age of science and technology. People use science see science as their ultimate criteria, but your science is LATE!

Example - What is the probability of someone 14 centrys ago, know that this whole universe was connected together in a single entity?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

what is the probality of someone 14 centuries ago knowing that this whole universe is expading?

from this we can easily conclude that the quran is far superor than that of science!

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

The quran challeges you to find a contradiction in it, has anyone ever been successful?

common use your reason!

If you understood how stupid one would have to buy a bridge, you would see how stupid one would have to be to buy what you have posted.

All that stuff has been debunked a thousand times.

 

[wilberhum]

can you give an example? or is this another one of your athest theories?

What is an "Atheist Theory".

How does "No god" create a theory other than "No god". :-\

 

[wilberhum]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

Proof? There is no proof. But there are millions of facts that back up the theories.

 

[Skavau]

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

No-one here is trying to make fun of anything. The reason you may sense hostility has everything to do with your attitude and complete ignorance towards Atheists. You have asked Atheists questions and we have responded adequately.

What do you want precisely?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

No idea. However they would be wrong. Not every living being is made out of water. We may contain water - but we are not made from it anymore than being made from the earth.

Moreover, Muhammad was beaten to it. The Greek Philosopher, Thales of Miletus who died in 546BC also made the claim that all living things came from water. That was a long time before Muhammad.

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

A list of about 5 scientists?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

What about humans? Weren't we supposed to be created from clay?

 

[Talha777]

What about humans? Weren't we supposed to be created from clay?

And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
(An Nur 24:45)​

All animals are created from water. Human beings at least are also created from mud and clay (mud requires water):

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape
(Al Hijr 15:26)​

So Holy Quran explains the steps in mankind's creation, man is created from nothing, man is created from water, man is created from mud and clay, man is created from a clot of blood, man is created from a drop of sperm. All of these are factual statements, but you have to realize they are describing in steps. God created the matter from nothing, and than continued to expand on that matter into different forms and shapes until finally you get a product - the human being. Hope this clarifies.

 

[Resigned]

And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
(An Nur 24:45)​

All animals are created from water. Human beings at least are also created from mud and clay (mud requires water):

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape
(Al Hijr 15:26)​

So Holy Quran explains the steps in mankind's creation, man is created from nothing, man is created from water, man is created from mud and clay, man is created from a clot of blood, man is created from a drop of sperm. All of these are factual statements, but you have to realize they are describing in steps. God created the matter from nothing, and than continued to expand on that matter into different forms and shapes until finally you get a product - the human being. Hope this clarifies.

Outside of the limited community of orthodox Islam, there is not simply "doubt" as to the content of the Koranic verses you posted as being authentic, but significant evidence to the contrary.

My first impression on reading your posting is that you will deliberately try to avoid having to deal with obvious and compelling evidence to the contrary by arbitrarily excluding it from consideration. That is, to put it mildly, an intellectually questionable debate tactic.

Oh, and the verses describing man being created from...well... all the contradictory means and methods you describe is a bit, how shall we say, contradictory?

 

[Pygoscelis]

How many big bangs were there?

How could we know? Perhaps none. Perhaps infinite.