To muslims are atheists worse than other theists?

[Pygoscelis]

How do you know what god wants and does not want, do you have proof? Do you have a revealved scripture, have you spoken to him? see what I mean about nonsense, theories, assumptions, you atheists make? Common use your reason!

Perhaps you didn't read my post? It rather amazes me that you could ask this after reading what you were purportedly responding to.

You attempt to limit God if you say he can't have us know what he wills us to know without all the middlemen and confusion that are prophets, holy books, etc. If you say that he IS omnipotent then clearly he intended the confusion. Do you have another explanation? And if you're thinking "so we could have free will" that doesn't make sense because we would still have free will if we had the direct and perfect knowledge. We would have the choice of if we followed and obeyed or not. In fact ONLY with the direct and perfect knowledge COULD we make an informed decision.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

Again I have to ask you to reread my post. None of these claims are mine, as I made clear by stating that they are the ideas of others. How did you miss that?

 

[kay106]

Kay106 - Posted scientific evidence Prof More supporting Islamic claims. What a load of crap

Geee, is Islam so desperate for validation that they go to such lengths to misrepresent scientists. It's a down and out fraud that was rumbled a couple of years ago. Here is an E-Mail from prof W. Hay;



BUMP! :hiding:

Do you have a video clip of him saying that, why are you being so gullible, and jumping to conclusions?

 

[kay106]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.



Proof? There is no proof. But there are millions of facts that back up the theories.

Do you mean that there are a lot of facts to back up evolution? If yes can you give an example? In other words I am asking for proof? You get the definition now, common i taught my little 5 year old niece that, you being god knows how old, dont even know what proof is, and you claim your a rationalist! LOL

 

[kay106]

Look guys, i dont care what you think, but you guys dont know what you are missing out on, i used to be just like you once, not remembering God much, and thats the time, when I used to feel sooo miserable, anxiety, depressed, etc. Visting a psychologist they tell me that its my past experience - in other words telling me to blame it onto someone else, but as soon as i began to pray, I felt my whole heart pumping and relieving stress, it was healing my sould immediately! Then i've noticed that it was a spiritual illness i was suffering from, everying wrong you do damages your soul, thats why just like any complicated machines, we need an instruction manual.
Did you know that depression is 3rd most common cause of death in the western countries, i could easily bring the sources if you want, I think this one is from the national health organisation. What people dont realise that this is not a psychological problem but its a spiritual problem, materialism wont help!

Trust me guys the intelligence and spirituality in this religion is unbelievable, you just have to see it and experience it your self. Listen to the story of this man, he used to be a millionaire, now look how enthuasistic he is about islam, he is a revert:
http://www.islamictube.net/view_video.php?viewkey=1207172257

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

At least make the shahadah, which is the declaration of faith, this could save on the day of judgement. If your worried about what people will think, simply dont tell them-keep it to your self, take your time, this satan will always come at you with anxiety, ask God for help.

Trust me guys you just dont know what you are missing out on, and also many people dont reliase the magnitude of threat we humans are facing!

 

[kay106]

Again I have to ask you to reread my post. None of these claims are mine, as I made clear by stating that they are the ideas of others. How did you miss that?

So do you believe that?

 

[kay106]

Did you guys know that on the day of judgement, some people will have sinned sooo sooo much, but just becuase they have believe in God and his messenger, this will out weith all their bad deeds. Common guys, dont admit it here, but atleast make this declartion of faith, find out how to do it, and you could be saved, just for that, if its too difficult for you to pray, fast, etc. But at the very least admit the truth, and thank God, for everthing he has give you - this would only take you a few seconds. Did you know that scientists cant even create a human vein, what about the eyes, what about the air we breathe, what about fruits we eat, strawberries, bannas, grapes, where does all this come from? did you know that if you were to count all that you were give you will loose count? Dont you think that source deserves to be known and thanked? I really believe, just like everything fulfills a function, thats the function out intellect should fulfill, to recognise the creator, sustainer. Have you looked at a seed, how it turns into a giant tree, do you know how much programming that seeds contain? Do you know how much scientist have uncovered about the seed? less than 1% I think. Do you see the intelligence in those seeds? Common at least admit the truth to your selves, you dont have to mention it here, but like i said before i would strongly advise you guys to at the very least to recognise this truth and to make the shahadah, take your time and think about it. If you guys need any help do come and ask us.

 

[kay106]

Perhaps you didn't read my post? It rather amazes me that you could ask this after reading what you were purportedly responding to.

You attempt to limit God if you say he can't have us know what he wills us to know without all the middlemen and confusion that are prophets, holy books, etc. If you say that he IS omnipotent then clearly he intended the confusion. Do you have another explanation? And if you're thinking "so we could have free will" that doesn't make sense because we would still have free will if we had the direct and perfect knowledge. We would have the choice of if we followed and obeyed or not. In fact ONLY with the direct and perfect knowledge COULD we make an informed decision.

God does misguide people, becuase they never listen, cant you see any clear examples here? they have brains, but they wont use them! Belive there are answers to your questions, ask someone who is knowledgable, if you really want I will find it my self, right now I am quite busy at work, slowed down on my research, but if you really want to know I will get you the answer.

I will give you this link, see this debate. This man claims that there are contraditions in the quran, the other guys prooves him wrong soo badly, but he still wont admitt it. See it for your self, see what i mean people being stupid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw3do0TLv6o

I am really trying to advise you, at least think about it, study into, read a few books. If your unsure about it dont ask any nonsense people who will give you their theories, ask the people of knowledge. Make sure you have enough solid proof whether accept it or reject it

 

[kay106]

This text makes me think you may be one of the theists I was referring to, who doesn't believe in non-believers, only those who do see the "truth" but choose to reject it. I am telling you that I have seen no "truth" and there is nothing I have been aware of as truth and rejected.

Your defintion of truth is something you can see with your eyes right?

 

[kay106]

Outside of the limited community of orthodox Islam, there is not simply "doubt" as to the content of the Koranic verses you posted as being authentic, but significant evidence to the contrary.

My first impression on reading your posting is that you will deliberately try to avoid having to deal with obvious and compelling evidence to the contrary by arbitrarily excluding it from consideration. That is, to put it mildly, an intellectually questionable debate tactic.

Oh, and the verses describing man being created from...well... all the contradictory means and methods you describe is a bit, how shall we say, contradictory?

I cant understand what you are saying, are you saying that he excluded something from considertation?

 

[kay106]

How could we know? Perhaps none. Perhaps infinite.

So you dont believe in science now? A scientific fact agreed by all scientific community? Also a claim which has enough proof?

 

[tigersabre]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

It's probably because many popular atheists such as Dawkins or Hitchens advocate their positions in what many would feel is rude and arrogant.

 

[kay106]

No-one here is trying to make fun of anything. The reason you may sense hostility has everything to do with your attitude and complete ignorance towards Atheists. You have asked Atheists questions and we have responded adequately.

What do you want precisely?


No idea. However they would be wrong. Not every living being is made out of water. We may contain water - but we are not made from it anymore than being made from the earth.

Moreover, Muhammad was beaten to it. The Greek Philosopher, Thales of Miletus who died in 546BC also made the claim that all living things came from water. That was a long time before Muhammad.


A list of about 5 scientists?

Have you asked a person of knowledge whethere every living thing is created from water or not, have you asked a biologist who observes living things? Why do scientists when trying to discover life outside earth first thing they look for is where a planet contains water or not? heres some proof for this claim:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/

This is what it says

"Among our discoveries about Mars, one stands out above all others: the possible presence of liquid water on Mars, either in its ancient past or preserved in the subsurface today. Water is key because almost everywhere we find water on Earth, we find life. If Mars once had liquid water, or still does today, it's compelling to ask whether any microscopic life forms could have developed on its surface. Is there any evidence of life in the planet's past? If so, could any of these tiny living creatures still exist today? Imagine how exciting it would be to answer, "Yes!!""

And much much more, from a high authority, NASA. Dont you there is a much higher authority that knows everything about the universe? Common guys, at the very least, if your confused i am sorry, stop covering up the truth, do it here try your best to win the debates, but dont deceive your self, I am only trying to help

 

[kay106]

Some here said this thing about greek philisophers who knew about that that every living thing was made up of water. But did you know that the greeks had a lot, i mean a lot of theories? This is becuase they didnt have modern day technologie to verify their claims.
Did you know that it was from the greeks till about the 19th century, i think, that people thought that the sun is stationary, but now it is prooved that the sun also orbits in an axis? This is a proven scientific fact? If prophet Muhammed(pbuh) copied from the greeks why didnt he copy the errors, did you know that there is not a single verse in the quran that goes against establised scientific fact? Did you know that scientists have looked into this claim sooo deeply, that they mastered arabic language and concluded that for them selves, that the not a single verse in the quran goes against establised scientific fact? Below is the proof:

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Quran-S...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197657840&sr=8-1

At least see the reviews, if you wont buy it

 

[kay106]

did you guys know that this thing about the sun also revolving on its own axis, is in the Quran? This scientific fact. Dont you guys realise that the quran is the most up to date book in the world?

 

[kay106]

It's probably because many popular atheists such as Dawkins or Hitchens advocate their positions in what many would feel is rude and arrogant.

Many people think that darwin is a threat to believers, i find them comedy to be honest. One thing I have to admit though you atheist smashed those cristians quite hard. Theres once athiest who has a christian, how could God turn into a man, the christrian replied, that God can do anything, thats why! The atheist then replied if God can do anything, then can he make something sooo big that he cant move it! LOL.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

If not, can you ask a man whether he gave birth to a child? You obviously cant because the definition of man, is that he doesn't have those womenly organs, there this question doesnt arise. Similarly definition of god is that he is the greatest!

 

[Gator]

Kay, where's the section with the cure for cancer? or how about the perfect prevention of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome? or blindness in children? or how fusion works? or why Tommi Lee has to exist?

Is there anything specific that we can get from the Quran that science does not have to figure out first, before we realize that it was right. I would like you to tell me so that when science does figure it out I can say that is really amazing.

Thanks.

 

[Skavau]

Do you mean that there are a lot of facts to back up evolution? If yes can you give an example? In other words I am asking for proof? You get the definition now, common i taught my little 5 year old niece that, you being god knows how old, dont even know what proof is, and you claim your a rationalist! LOL

There is no such thing as proof. Only evidence and reason.

Look guys, i dont care what you think, but you guys dont know what you are missing out on, i used to be just like you once, not remembering God much, and thats the time, when I used to feel sooo miserable, anxiety, depressed, etc.

Do not patronise and project your feelings on others. You have no knowledge of what the Atheists here think, so do not pretend that you do.

Visting a psychologist they tell me that its my past experience - in other words telling me to blame it onto someone else, but as soon as i began to pray, I felt my whole heart pumping and relieving stress, it was healing my sould immediately! Then i've noticed that it was a spiritual illness i was suffering from, everying wrong you do damages your soul, thats why just like any complicated machines, we need an instruction manual.

Please provide evidence that a soul even exists.

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

So you don't believe our Atheism is sincere now? You think we're all secretly theists? I get tired of this nonsense. All of us Atheists here are what we say we are. I do not believe in God. My admittance of the 'truth' is an assertion that there is no evidence for the existence of a God.

And drop the patronising tone.

At least make the shahadah, which is the declaration of faith, this could save on the day of judgement. If your worried about what people will think, simply dont tell them-keep it to your self, take your time, this satan will always come at you with anxiety, ask God for help.

One problem.

I don't believe in God, therefore saying the Shahadah is dishonest.

Did you guys know that on the day of judgement, some people will have sinned sooo sooo much, but just becuase they have believe in God and his messenger, this will out weith all their bad deeds. Common guys, dont admit it here, but atleast make this declartion of faith, find out how to do it, and you could be saved, just for that, if its too difficult for you to pray, fast, etc. But at the very least admit the truth, and thank God, for everthing he has give you - this would only take you a few seconds. Did you know that scientists cant even create a human vein, what about the eyes, what about the air we breathe, what about fruits we eat, strawberries, bannas, grapes, where does all this come from? did you know that if you were to count all that you were give you will loose count? Dont you think that source deserves to be known and thanked? I really believe, just like everything fulfills a function, thats the function out intellect should fulfill, to recognise the creator, sustainer. Have you looked at a seed, how it turns into a giant tree, do you know how much programming that seeds contain? Do you know how much scientist have uncovered about the seed? less than 1% I think. Do you see the intelligence in those seeds? Common at least admit the truth to your selves, you dont have to mention it here, but like i said before i would strongly advise you guys to at the very least to recognise this truth and to make the shahadah, take your time and think about it. If you guys need any help do come and ask us.

Paragraphs are your friend.

Have you asked a person of knowledge whethere every living thing is created from water or not, have you asked a biologist who observes living things? Why do scientists when trying to discover life outside earth first thing they look for is where a planet contains water or not? heres some proof for this claim:

None of the above is evidence that everything is made from water. It is only that water is searched for.

Dont you there is a much higher authority that knows everything about the universe? Common guys, at the very least, if your confused i am sorry, stop covering up the truth, do it here try your best to win the debates, but dont deceive your self, I am only trying to help

I would appreciate it if you stopped patronising people here and stop deluding yourself into thinking that we are all secretly theists.

Did you know that it was from the greeks till about the 19th century, i think, that people thought that the sun is stationary, but now it is prooved that the sun also orbits in an axis? This is a proven scientific fact? If prophet Muhammed(pbuh) copied from the greeks why didnt he copy the errors, did you know that there is not a single verse in the quran that goes against establised scientific fact?

I never said Muhammad did copy the Greeks. Just he was beaten to his claim that everything was made from water, which is in fact - false. Therefore there is error.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

Essentially all problems with the Christian concept of God apply directly to the Islamic concept of God.

From the Free-Will vs. Omniscience contradiction to the Problem Of Evil.

 

[tigersabre]

Many people think that darwin is a threat to believers, i find them comedy to be honest. One thing I have to admit though you atheist smashed those cristians quite hard. Theres once athiest who has a christian, how could God turn into a man, the christrian replied, that God can do anything, thats why! The atheist then replied if God can do anything, then can he make something sooo big that he cant move it! LOL.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

If not, can you ask a man whether he gave birth to a child? You obviously cant because the definition of man, is that he doesn't have those womenly organs, there this question doesnt arise. Similarly definition of god is that he is the greatest!

I'm a Muslim.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Kay,

First off, I've not seen you around here much before, so howdy. Welcome to the forum. I hope you get a lot out of it.

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

It seems you've now realised that the atheists here may not be here to poke fun or outsmart people. Asking questions and learning about Islam, as you've recommended, is certainly my main reason for coming here.

Also, it seems you're new to your religion, and relatively new to debating about it. Reading up on atheism would help you a lot, since almost every point you've made so far has been answered for centuries. You might also understand some of the atheist responses you've had in this thread. You could do worse than starting here.

Oddly enough, the thread starter explicitly asked for the thread not to degenerate into yet another "god doesn't exist / yes he does" thread, so it would appear that this is all off-topic and would be better elsewhere.

Peace