Trinity led me to Islam

[bibleblevr]

Seriously, do you guys have some sort of creative writing competition in church in "how to explain trinity in the most wordy and elaborate way"?

HA HA HA ;D It may seem That way that way some times

 

[bibleblevr]

Are you sure you understand Christianity?

Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?

Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.

Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.

 

[Zafran]

But none of this precludes the oneness of God does it? One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one and we can only use analogies such as when I am at work I am person X when at home person Y and when ..... But my question to you is do you reject the trinity, lets call it a concept because you don't understand it or is there some other reason?

The whole point of this dogma called the trinity is to explain the divinity of Christ, the father and the holy ghost. Ofcourse muslims reject that Christ is divine therefore nulifying the entire dogma of the trinity - for any pure montheist its hard to accept the concept of the trinity simply because it contradicts pure montheism.

Your analogy is weak a better one would be your a human at home - a non human at work and a............

so according to christians

Jesus (pbuh) is God
Holy ghost is God
Father is God

But you still believe in one God? ofcourse lets not even get into the Jesus being part man and part God which complicates things even further.

 

[bibleblevr]

Sure enough sounds like a separate Being. And that is after 7 centuries of refining the prayer from the second to 9th centuries to get it to appear to be more in line with the Trinity being one God(swt) The earlier versions were a bit more, shall we say separatist

The Earliest known version is the Latin "Symbolum Apostolorum" Which at least 3 versions exist. Notice the lack of mentioning of the "Holy Ghost" The concept of trinity was still forming and Christianity was at a Dualism not quite being Trinitarian yet.

I don't know enough about the timeline of the trinity's acceptance to intelligently disagree with you, but what I will say is that it is seen as a blessing in the Church that God continues to revel his truth through the church's ecumenical councils and the decisions of his Church's wise leaders.

 

[Zafran]

Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

 

[جوري]

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

It makes for an interesting Narnia show..

 

[bibleblevr]

and YET, you will be explaining those "parts" below!


Yes, the nature of the trinity is that God is distinct in three fully divine persons, yet he in one God. The exact nature of the trinity is considered as a mystery by Christianity.

as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

It is a metaphor deigned to illustrate how something can exist in three ways all being fully the item of which we speak. Fear not, neither I nor any other sane individual believes God is a rock.

Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?
I am not advocating for Plato's position on God, especially since he had no concept of the trinity. I am using his way of explaining the states in which a thing can be fully existent. This useful explanation is like the gold that the Jews took leaving Egypt, it is from an ungodly source, but it can be usefully pressed into the Lord's service for his Glory none the less.

a rock is a rock, even charlie Brown knows that!
Lets not bring Charlie brown into this now


actually, your gospels said that Jesus said that about himself
Very true, because Jesus is in fact fully God


actually, the idea of "the logos" comes from pagan Philosophy. and a god that is dependent upon another god can only be a junior god or not even a god really. and IF you always have 2 or more gods, then you were NEVER monotheists.

"Logos" is first and foremost a Greek word, not an pagan idea (That I know of), it simply is used In the Bible for its efficient way of explaining how Jesus is the word, likeness, symbol, full embodiment of God, description, ect..... without having to name off what I just did and more. Conveniently the Greeks had a word that fit our meaning, so why not use it

Jesus is not a God dependent on another God, there is one God, he holds both a dependent position that is co-eternal with god, and a fatherly one which is not dependent, as I illustrated in my first post, the same "thing" can be fully itself in multiple forms without becoming multiple things, or being divided into parts that would make up a whole.

One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one
just stop right there. no further explanation called for!

Of course, I disagree, as I have offered the best explanation I can, and believe it to be true. You have heard my explanation, take it or leave it, the choice is up to you. I simply ask that you ponder the possibility of the trinity without the forgone conclusion that it is false.
Peace

By the way, I appreciate the civility of the discussion thus far.

 

[bibleblevr]

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

"Betray" is a synonym for the word "reveal", sorry for any confusion my diction may have caused.

As for the Bird, it is a symbol of the Holy spirit, the Holy spirit is also symbolized by water, fire, and light, but it is not any of these either. Also, it is important to note that it is not, and it has never been a teaching of the Church, that God is in any capacity, a bird.

 

[Zafran]

so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?

 

[Ramadhan]

The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation,

nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"

Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way.

as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

So this is God's reincarnation evolution timeline according to christians:

God --------> spirit -------> man --------> bird -------> lion --------> lamb -------> fish -------> rock.


I shudder to think what's next.

so from the chart it is clear to see that for christians, god is everything from a ghost to a half naked man dying to a rock, but never a god.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

I never could understand how if Jesus were God, in the NT he often goes off and prays to The Father (God). How could he pray to himself?

Why would he tell his followers "don't call me good, only one is good your Father in Heaven"?

Why, if Jesus were God, did the Father say "this is my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased" after Jesus was baptized? He wasn't a ventriloquist was he? It makes no sense.

Why would he teach his disciples the Lord's prayer (Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, etc.,) if he were God? It doesn't make sense that he teaches them to pray to the Father unless of course Jesus really wasn't God.

The whole explanation of the trinity just seems to be an argument to try to fit Jesus' life into some type of divinity so that it agrees with the Old Testament concept of One God because the NT story of Jesus' life does not fit with the OT at all.

 

[bibleblevr]

why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.

There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!

 

[جوري]

None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell?

ha? why did god create hell all together?
how farcical is all of this? he can scratch out hell and be less dramatic and not die in a little town in Palestine neglecting the rest of the universe for something as absurd as eating sins ..

give me a break mac.. I know they come up with these convoluted tales to appease your queries and indeed you must have low standards but surely you can fathom that others think completely outside that box!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!

so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you - the man taking the sentence is also innocent.

 

[bibleblevr]

so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?

He is all knowing.
Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.

 

[bibleblevr]

ha? why did god create hell all together?

Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.

 

[Zafran]

He is all knowing.
Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.

so your saying God forgets?

It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is *forgive and forget" - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.

Forgiving is radically different from not knowing the last hour.

 

[bibleblevr]

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

 

[Zafran]

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?

 

[bibleblevr]

so your saying God forgets?

It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.

The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.