Trinity led me to Islam

[جوري]

Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.

Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!

Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.

God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!

all the best

 

[bibleblevr]

why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?

Mercy from what? if there is no punishment what mercy is he showing? Mercy is choosing not to use you right to justice, If there is no justice first in place, then what right is he forgoing?

 

[bibleblevr]

so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you whos actually innocent of the sin?

THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.

 

[Zafran]

The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.

and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

 

[Zafran]

THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.

How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.

 

[bibleblevr]

Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!

God does not love everyone. God loves all people and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.

God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!

God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.

Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.

 

[bibleblevr]

when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.

 

[bibleblevr]

How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

 

[جوري]

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

Only christians seem to not fulfill the law because of this false complacency that god ate their sins.. the rest of us certain live and strive to live by God's law.. further no one enters into heaven or hell because of fulfillment of this law, rather God's mercy, and such mercy doesn't require god to self-immolate!

all the best

 

[جوري]

God does not love everyone. God loves all people

is this a new spin? god doesn't love everyone, god loves all people? what a bunch of nutters christians are!

and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.

That line means god doesn't love everybody so stop with the love crap!
by the way it appears your god didn't only beget Jesus, but satan as well:

The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.

God doesn't care for our deeds, what we do is for our own souls. Since God is independent of his creation and has no needs and needs not self-immolate to forgive!

Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.

if that is the case why did your god abrogate his own laws through a charlatan to send the masses into confusion after self-immolating and unable to choose apostles that would shoulder the responsibility of carrying his message after his death, surely a god should know he'd best hand pick apostles that wouldn't forsake him collectively so he'd have to appear in shadow to his nemesis and then change his mind about what he previously made as law!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.

Your explanations are paradoxical as you admitted which makes them bad and is part of the problem as it reduces it down to irrational belief - you have no problem with something being all powerful but at the same time forgetful - you have no problem with all knowing but then at the same time not knowing the last hour - They are contradictory - just like the angels and normal men Jesus pbuh has the same knowledge on the last hour making him not all knowing unlike God or the father.

Mark 13:32
But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

why make the distinction? are you going to give me more paradoxes.

 

[Zafran]

How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.

as i said if God opened the Gates of hell God could close them the same way.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;

and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.

I think if you use the word forgive instead of forget, it seems to make more sense.

Who can know the mind of God, the same God who created you and gave you a faith through Islam, also created me and gave me a faith through Christianity. The same God hears all our prayers, we all strive to obey the laws of God, and we all fall short, none of us deserve salvation through our own efforts, we all need the forgiveness and mercy of God.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and unnderstanding

Eric

 

[Munda Pakistani]

May I (belatedly) remind the Muslims here that ridiculing other religions is against what our Prophet SAWW taught us?

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance" (Qur'an, Surah Al-Nahl, Aayah 125)

 

[Hugo]

actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?" just stop right there. no further explanation called for!;

Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?

 

[جوري]

Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?

In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.

all the best

 

[Hugo]

In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.

Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?

Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.

 

[جوري]

Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?

Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?

Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.

that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?

Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.

that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!

If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?

 

[جوري]

Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.

You should try answering the previous questions before posing new ones!

If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?

You should see a counselor!

all the best