Truth= god does not exist?

[Trumble]

Even if a person has healthy genes. It still doesn't make him self sufficient because food, water and other sources that mankind depends on are out of the equation.

You miss my point. It's nothing to with somebody having healthy genes, its whether the gene pool itself survives. Man as in the walking-talking entity can be considered just a mechanism for that. Of course people need food, water, air etc. That doesn't mean a God is needed to provide them, and whether there is a God or not, sometimes they are deprived of those and other things, and die.

Creating us imperfect shows our weakness in this world and if we were created perfect - then why would we want to turn to Allaah Almighty anyway? One of the greatest time a person turns to God is in times of distress, and hardship

That's precisely what I don't understand and the point I addressed to Woodrow; WHY does God need us to "turn to" him? For what purpose? Why could he have not created perfect beings who would not kill, steal, cheat, lie and otherwise cause misery to their fellows? Or, if you think that would preclude free will, why not give us free will and then just leave us to get on with it?

I agree totally that God wouldn't be "dependent on being worshipped by mankind", if He exists as you perceive Him. But that doesn't explain why He would want to be worshipped, let alone create us just to do it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Pygoscelis, your theory is flawed.​

What theory?

I was showing the flaw in common theistic reasoning that "there must be a creator God"

I don't recall making any claims of my own.​

 

[New_Muslim]

Greeting New Muslim

You are talking about personal conviction here. Strong as that may be, it is not proof!

I do not think God's existance can be proven to a non-believer, even if we, as believers, feel that we have 'personal proof' of his existance - either through belief in a holy book or through a personal experience.
If somebody's heart is not prepared to believe, all the 'proof' in the world will fall on stony ground ...

peace

When studying Islam you will find there is proof of God. Islam is truth, Islam is pure. If anyone needs more proof, just look around the forum. There are great examples of why Islam is truth everywhere.

 

[Pygoscelis]

God(swt)

What is (swt)? I've seen (pbuh) meaning pace be upon him but never encountered (swt) before.

To understand the basis for belief, a person has to see beyond what is measurable and has to have a spark of the thing we refer to as faith. I know faith exists. I believe the source of faith is God(swt)

The problem with that sort of reasoning for a non-believer is that this 'faith' could lead you to believe ANYTHING. One could have faith in invisible aliens all around us and nobody could prove them wrong.

 

[Pygoscelis]

There are great examples of why Islam is truth everywhere.

Only to the mind of a believer in Islam.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What is (swt)? I've seen (pbuh) meaning pace be upon him but never encountered (swt) before

SWT stands for Subhana Wa'ta'ala which I think in English it means Glorified and Exalted be He. Not sure...?

 

[New_Muslim]

SWT stands for Subhana Wa'ta'ala which I think in English it means Glorified and Exalted be He. Not sure...?

what about (SAW)?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

what about (SAW)?

That stands for "Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Wa Sallaam." The English form is "Peace be Upon Him" or (pbuh).

Anyway, dont wana go off topic..:hiding:

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I think you are blinded by bias when you make this statement. Religious folk are generally nicer, less agressive and more patient than non religious folk? I think not. Religion and intolerance go hand in hand more often than not. Moreover, jail populations show that the percentage of athiests incarcerated is far lower than the percentage of ahteists in the general population.

First of all I 'd like to point out I was refering to muslim vs non muslim and not to theist vs non-theist. So the statistics of religious people in prison isn't really relevant since I expect they would include a fair number of christians and jews to. And even if it were relevant there's still teh posibility of them aqcuiring religion from incarceration, instead of the other way around as you suggested.

So about the bias, Well we obviously have two opposing paradigms, and I could just as easely dismiss your comments by saying that you are biased and technically we would be both right. But I don't think eitherone of us will get something from that. So let me invite you to look at both of our "bias". You said I was wrong based on "many religious peopel acting bad". Even if that is statisticly right, which I don't think it is, you have to realise that these acts are acts not allowed in religion and you have to question how sincere these people are in their religion, and wheter you can judge religion for the malpractise of some people. As for my argument, it was based on the fact that religion dictates us to do good. From a neutral point of view I'd say my argument is better supported whereas yours relies on questionable claims of statistics. So I wouldn't be to quick calling people biased.

Religion is just another way to create US vs a THEM, espcially monotheistic religoin that declares that it is the only proper way to live and its God is the only God that may be worshiped and that all others are inferior. As soon as you have religions declaring this you're going to have a less than tolerant society. It also gives believers means to justify injustice in thier minds. And a means to internally alleviate guilt.

Well ask yourself the following hypothetical question, if religion would be true, wouldn't it be logical that a mercifull God shows us the best way to live life and that he'd invitus to stay away from false religions? And wouldn't it be logical that if Satan really exists that he tries to devide us and them; tries to fight people? I get you don't believe all of that but you're running in circles again.

I don't believe in God -> there must be another reason for teh existance of religion -> it must be a device of control then or an attempt to cope with injustice -> so that means I shouldn't believe in God.

Religoiusly caused nastiness ranges from the mild (believers decreeing that nonbelievers can not know morality,

Nobody says that non-believers have no moralty at all, but they have it to a lesser degree. I can see how you find it offensive, but give it the benefit of the doubt, because if it's accurate then you cannot dismiss it as "nasty". Take alcohol for example; it is obvious that there is some part of bad in it. Now You could argue that banning it is going to far because the benefit wouldn't outweigh the freedom one has to give up. However what you cannot deny is that the one who avoids alcohol to avoid the downsides acts more morally then the one who doesn't. You cannot deny the simple relative difrence even if you don't agree with the necesity against it.

forced 'morality' such as bans on homosexual marriage and store closures on Sundays, etc) to the moderate ( stopping non believers or believers in other religions from holding land , from holding public office, or testifying in court or voting, ) to the severe (murder of heretics, human sacrifice, religious wars, forced conversions of entire foreign nations of 'savages' etc)

In that line of reasoning one can dismiss every single kind of laws ,morality or ethics wheter we are talking about religious ones or secular ones. I consider every single rule to be justified. You should know that a lot of rules you mentioned do not exist in Islam, as for specific rules in Islamic shariah, I welcome you to discuss any given one in this forum and you'll see that they are not unfair at all.

Through history religious folk have have frequently hated and warred against others not sharing their faith, from Ireland (Catholics vs Protestants) to the middle east (Jews vs Muslims) to the middle ages (Spanish inquisition, crusades etc) and pretty much all throghout history, from ancient Roman pagans throwing christians to lions to ancient egyptians enslaving jews (as per the bible).

So you're saying some peopel are being persecuted for their fate so if we leave out faith things are ok? That's like saying, if only those africans became white then we wouldn't have to deeal with racism anymore. The problem lies not with the victems but with the wrongdoers. And just because religion is easely abused as scapegoat doesn't mean that religion is bad, nor does it mean that we should just ignore religion.

And then there are those who do wild and crazy things to their followers from human sacrifice in old religions (including abrahamic) to burning witches (which went on for centuries, not just a few isolated incodents) to craziiness like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Fred Phelps.

Well again, whatever examples you have in mind they wll be either un-islamic or perfectly justifiable and logical if you 'd look at them in depth.

And that you assume it to be a universally held belief that it is so (saying to be 'fair' I'd have to agree) shows a massive bias on your part.

Or then agin, maybe my assumption just showed that I expected you to be less biased then you actually are.

You have to admire the irony though, of the bias that was in your last statement. kay:

 

[Pygoscelis]

First of all I 'd like to point out I was refering to muslim vs non muslim and not to theist vs non-theist.

Ok, the following is what you wrote though, and from it I saw no restriction to Islamic religious folk.

I think if you'll be fair you'll be forced to admit that in general religious people tend to be nicer, less agressive, more patient and sin less (in general, there are of course exceptions on both sides).

I could just as easely dismiss your comments by saying that you are biased and technically we would be both right.

Yes of course I am biased. Everybody has a bias. But you claimed that "to be fair" your view must be adhered to. That is what I was objecting to and why I highlighted your bias.

You have to realise that these acts are acts not allowed in religion and you have to question how sincere these people are in their religion

Not allowed in religion? Numerous religions actually instruct much of this nastiness if you interpret their scripture in a certain way. Often the literal translation tells you to do horrible things, like stone children to death etc.

To say it is not allowed in religion and religion demands that we all be nice and get along is only one of many interpretations of the religious scripture and you'll find just as many religious people who follow a polar opposite interpretation.

I strongly believe that most people throughout history who have done terrible things in the name of religion truly believed that they were following their God.

From a neutral point of view I'd say my argument is better supported whereas yours relies on questionable claims of statistics.

Um, yes mine had some statistics (objective measurements) attached whereas yours was entirely subjective. And yours is better supported?

Well ask yourself the following hypothetical question, if religion would be true, wouldn't it be logical that a mercifull God shows us the best way to live life and that he'd invitus to stay away from false religions?

Well it'd be even better if he led everybody to see his way as true, rather than have millions of religions and millions more divisions within each one. If there is one True (tm) religion, you'd think it'd be a bit more clear. And its terrible all the violence and hatred that has erupted due to this confusion.

Now if you are monotheistic and believe that your God is the one True God and all others are false, then look to two groups of people with competing false gods that are not your own and you can see the phenomenon as I see it.

Each of these groups believes their God to be the only God at the exclusion of all others an their way to be the only way. They will inevitably push their view upon the other goup, because they want to save the other group's souls or whatever. They may even be commanded by scripture to slay the other group if they will not convert, which has happened numerous times throughout history. Intolerance and violence abound.

there must be another reason for teh existance of religion -> it must be a device of control then or an attempt to cope with injustice [/quote[

Actually I think each of those steps can be followed whether or not you believe in a God. Religion most certainly is used as a device to control (I doubt anybody would dispute that) and most certainly is a means of coping with injustice (again fairly obvious).

-> so that means I shouldn't believe in God.

This step doesn't follow and isn't relevant to the ones you put before it.

Nobody says that non-believers have no moralty at all

Actually you may be suprised at the number of religoius folk out there who do claim to believe this. I'm glad you are not one of them.

You should know that a lot of rules you mentioned do not exist in Islam

Note that the post I was making applied to religions in general, as that seemed to be what you were writing about. I don't claim to know much about Islamic rules.

It is refreshing to hear you say that Islam doesn't have terrible rules such as those I referred to above. I don't know Islamic rules well enough to dispute this.

So you're saying some peopel are being persecuted for their fate (I'm assuming you meant faith) so if we leave out faith things are ok?

No, I was referring to people acting out of their faith and doing nasty things, not people having nasty things done to them because of their faith (though the latter often coincides with the former, given 2 groups of faith infused people).

Well again, whatever examples you have in mind they wll be either un-islamic or perfectly justifiable and logical if you 'd look at them in depth.

So Islamic doctrine has never demanded or justified human sacrifice, doesn't give special rights to muslims that non-muslims don't get or tax non-muslims, doesn't command the slaying or other nasty things being done to infidels or apostates, doesn't close stores or otherwise interrupt the lives of non-muslims, etc?

That is very nice to hear and I hope it is true. You are motivating me to read up on it, for I find it doubtful. It'd make it very unique amongst religions.

I'm curious what in Islamic scripture is being interpretted (misinterpretted?) by terrorists and the like to have them claim they do what they do in the name of Islam. Is it just a blanket statement of "Islam tells me to do this" or do they cite specific verses over and over like the crazy Christians do?

Or then agin, maybe my assumption just showed that I expected you to be less biased then you actually are.

Your statement wasn't somthing like "I believe that..." or "some believe that...". It was and I quote "if you'll be fair you'll be forced to admit that..". That is clear and rabid bias that had to be pointed out.

Wouldn't you object to me saying that "to be fair you'd have to admit that Allah is a product of your culture and imagination"? Thats the equivalent of what you wrote.

I don't expect you to admit, or to even accept that, because clearly you don't. And I don't consider your stance "unfair". If I did write as if I expected you to admit that and that your not admitting it is "unfair" or dishonest then I'd be showing the same degree of bias you did.

 

[- Qatada -]

You miss my point. It's nothing to with somebody having healthy genes, its whether the gene pool itself survives. Man as in the walking-talking entity can be considered just a mechanism for that. Of course people need food, water, air etc. That doesn't mean a God is needed to provide them, and whether there is a God or not, sometimes they are deprived of those and other things, and die.

Man doesn't survive because of his genes, but Allaah decides who will die or live. How does a man, with healthy genes along with his family survive in an earthquake, hurricane etc?


It's much more realistic that Allaah is providing for them than believe that all this water comes down in equal proportions by chance. How tiny seeds grow into huge plants, while others die out.

A fire can only start when someone lights it, two sticks themselves sitting together won't do any good.

That's precisely what I don't understand and the point I addressed to Woodrow; WHY does God need us to "turn to" him? For what purpose? Why could he have not created perfect beings who would not kill, steal, cheat, lie and otherwise cause misery to their fellows? Or, if you think that would preclude free will, why not give us free will and then just leave us to get on with it?

I agree totally that God wouldn't be "dependent on being worshipped by mankind", if He exists as you perceive Him. But that doesn't explain why He would want to be worshipped, let alone create us just to do it.

Allaah Almighty created us in this world to test us, because He chose to do that out of His own wanting. If this world was perfect anyway, then there would be no point for paradise or a hellfire.

In this world we have a choice to do good or bad, so its a freedom of choice. A person may be brought up in an agnostic household, Allaah put this person in that position, this will lead him to other doorways so it will be this persons freedom of choice to decide which doorway to take [whether its the path to good or bad.] If this person is sincere to find out the truth, Allaah Almighty will guide him insha'Allah.



If a person takes the path to evil, they are harming their ownselves. And if a person takes the path to good - they are benefiting their ownself. The idea of inclining to do good has already been explained earlier, and this is already programmed into us by Allaah.

fitrah?
http://www.islamicboard.com/554874-post215.html




Due to the fact that this world is filled with evil, the majority of people incline to that and go against their fitrah. They don't want limits, while others only follow the crowd due to peer pressure.

What ideology do we follow? Do we follow the theme common in our time? What if that theme is promoting evil? What if it's inviting people to intoxicating drugs, fornication and other forms of evil like murder? Who decides what is evil and what is not?




Islaam pushes aside all them evils because evil prevails in societies when the people are void of guidance. Everyone want's a peaceful, simple life. Most say they just want a 'normal' life. But they don't get it. Why?


We know as muslims that the only reason Allaah puts restrictions upon us is for our own benefit.

Murder in some situations is forbidden because it's the killing of an innocent soul. Fornication is forbidden because the lineage of the child may not be known, or the child may be deprived of knowing who their father was. Intoxicants are forbidden because it causes a person to lose their mind, and they may do evil that they don't even know of, and be regretful of it later on.




Allaah Almighty also tests us to see if we will incline to that evil, and the one's who choose to stay away from that evil are usually classed as 'old fashioned' or not upto date people. People may not like them because their not following the theme of the time. Yet aren't these the people who are trying to stay away from this evil? Who can they turn to? Why are they doing what their doing?

Because it's in their fitrah that they don't want to do evil. And naturally, its in mans fitrah to turn to someone higher in authority when he/she is in need of help. When all society has turned its back upon him/her, and they have no-one to help them, Allaah has placed it in their fitrah that there is only one true deity, and if the person is sincere, they will turn to Him - Allaah will help them insha'Allaah.




So by worshipping the Creator, we're showing that we're not weak. We don't depend on the creation for help. The more a person is dependant on the Creator - Allaah Almighty, the less the person is dependant on the people. Similarly, the more a person is dependant on the people, the less they are dependant on the Creator - Allaah Almighty, even though these people only help this person by the Mercy of Allaah. Not 1billion men could benefit one person if Allaah never willed it.


Allaah is showing His Mercy to us that He tells us what is wrong and right, so he forbids us from that for our own good. He allows us to pray to Him, to worship Him and we will be blessed more in this world, and be blessed with paradise too insha'Allaah. He is not in need of our worship, but we are in need of Him, the Exalted, the Most Merciful - Lord of the Worlds.




Allaah Almighty know's best.




Peace.


​

 

[- Qatada -]

What theory?

I was showing the flaw in common theistic reasoning that "there must be a creator God"

I don't recall making any claims of my own.

There isn't a flaw, but i understand what you're trying to say.



Peace.

 

[lolwatever]

^ Hi Pygo... I'm back its me... that cheese n ahm3d where quotin.. (shukran guys4 doin that 4me btw)

umm u didn tquite reply to my post if u remember it... also one other flaw with ur infinite paintbucket - infinite existing universe.. is that there isnt infinite matter in the universe...

and the 'there must be god thing'... is derived from our intelligence... doesnt it occur to you that if Allah told the prophet in the quran:

""Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.”

amongst other facts taht where physically impossible to discover at the time (things like redshifting - sun moving towards a point in space) as well as the linguistic miracle presented in the quran and other things...

Doesnt that make you think 'whats teh probability of an arab bedoin coming up with this from his own'.... ?

or as they say... do u wanna wait till you see hellfire with your own eyes that you'll start thinkin "oh yeh if only i was smarter than that"?

 

[Pygoscelis]

umm u didn tquite reply to my post if u remember it...

Sorry, the whole posting through somebody else thing (and having to cut and paste text), coupled with my difficulty in reading your posts (is english your second language?) threw me off and I replied to the posts of others instead.

also one other flaw with ur infinite paintbucket - infinite existing universe.. is that there isnt infinite matter in the universe...

I never made any reference to infinite matter in the universe. I did however suggest that there may have been infinite universes coming and going as some physiscists believe. We simply do not know for sure if that is so or not.

and the 'there must be god thing'... is derived from our intelligence...

Thats a gem.

doesnt it occur to you that ...

While you were gone another thread started addressing the claims that Muslims make that their holy book predicted things that have come true.
I don't want to replicate what was said there. Here's a link to it.

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ust-watch-video-3-42-time-video-new-post.html

or as they say... do u wanna wait till you see hellfire with your own eyes that you'll start thinkin "oh yeh if only i was smarter than that"?

Threats of hell don't bother me in the slightest. Probably just as the stories of the Greco-Roman underworld or Aztec afterlife don't bother you, and for precisely the same reason.

 

[lolwatever]

Sorry, the whole posting through somebody else thing (and having to cut and paste text), coupled with my difficulty in reading your posts (is english your second language?) threw me off and I replied to the posts of others instead.

ok no prob.. take ur time... english not my 2nd btw... unless u wanna split english into slang n formal... in which case slang is my first language

I never made any reference to infinite matter in the universe. I did however suggest that there may have been infinite universes coming and going as some physiscists believe. We simply do not know for sure if that is so or not.

One of the solutions to oblers paradox is that the universe is not infinite... the logic is that if you took a differential thickness off the universe with a star density 'p' and then integrated the volume (from zero to infinity) then there would be an 'infinite number of stars' meaning that the night sky would be "infinitely bright". (Lookup oblers paradox for more detailed info).

And an infinite universe is infinite with respect to time, and your mentioning that our argument is flawd becasue we belive in a more complex creator that "wasnt created" is flawed in itself... Because we're saying time is a creation it's a dimension just like the spatial ones.

The fact that the creator is outside the time domain means you cant use the logic "then who created him". Because you're assumign he's in time domain.


So there is no flaw as you claim... if an infinitely more complex creator exists outside of time, it makes the whole idea ofa n infinite universe irrelevent too, because he's not boudn by time so how does that change the fact that he exists or not?

And suppose there's 100% proof taht the universe is expanding forever (i.e. density less than critical density). So What? Infact Allah told us that this entire solar system gonna be destroyed regardless of whether universe itself is infinite or not

and guess what... physics agrees... check my thread about it here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/18620-when-sun-overthrown-takwir-emperics.html

point is.... Allah is telling us this ahead fo time, in a time when non of this stuff could be determined, yet you refuse to excercise your intellectual facilities to extrapolate for yourself teh truthfulness of the claims that Allah exists? I mean who else besides the creator could have told us that stuff in teh quran (includign the quote i mentioned in previous post that u ignored)

While you were gone another thread started addressing the claims that Muslims make that their holy book predicted things that have come true.
I don't want to replicate what was said there. Here's a link to it.

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ust-watch-video-3-42-time-video-new-post.html

Thanks.. but what i mentioned above are direct quoets... the reference is (21:30) and chapter of 'takweer' for the one in the link i gave you... not made up references.

Threats of hell don't bother me in the slightest. Probably just as the stories of the Greco-Roman underworld or Aztec afterlife don't bother you, and for precisely the same reason.

the roman and aztec stuff don't bother me because ther'es no convincing argument why it should be believable or make sense. The quran is much more sophisticated than what those cults have to offer....

 

[Pygoscelis]

One of the solutions to oblers paradox is that the universe is not infinite...

Yes Oblers paradox is evidence against an infinite universe, but not proof. It certainly says nothing with regard to multiple universes or an infinite number thereof (which is possible I suppose, but who really knows)

mentioning that our argument is flawd becasue we belive in a more complex creator that "wasnt created" is flawed in itself... Because we're saying time is a creation it's a dimension just like the spatial ones.

What does the premise of everything existing requiring a creator have to do with time? If everything that exists needs a creator then God needs a creator. If God doesn't need a creator then not everything that exists needs a creator, and that could include the universe.

The fact that the creator is outside the time domain means you cant use the logic "then who created him". Because you're assumign he's in time domain.

? What is this mysterious 'time domain' that God is outside? Did God create time? Hasn't time by definition always been? When we start talking about time like something that hasn't always been around we're starting to go wonky.

So there is no flaw as you claim... if an infinitely more complex creator exists outside of time, it makes the whole idea ofa n infinite universe irrelevent too, because he's not boudn by time so how does that change the fact that he exists or not?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. One thought doesn't seem to follow the next in the above. What do time, the universe, a complex God and his existence all have to do with one another?

Infact Allah told us that this entire solar system gonna be destroyed regardless of whether universe itself is infinite or not

Well eventually of course it will. This planet will go boom. No need for devine wisdom to know that. I could have told you that and I bet Ug and Thog the cave men of millions of years ago could have too.

point is.... Allah is telling us this ahead fo time, in a time when non of this stuff could be determined, yet you refuse to excercise your intellectual facilities to extrapolate for yourself teh truthfulness of the claims that Allah exists?

Look to the thread I posted for my response, and that of many others to this. I'm not going to replicate a whole thread to tie to this now aged one.

I mean who else besides the creator could have told us that stuff in teh quran

That may be the crux of it, and I bet MANY could have, and many did. Look at the post int he thread referred to above regarding the greeks.

the roman and aztec stuff don't bother me because ther'es no convincing argument why it should be believable or make sense. The quran is much more sophisticated than what those cults have to offer....

Only to a Muslim, which is why they become or remain Muslim.

And if you want to talk about devine prediction and the Aztecs, did you know that it is claimed that they predicted the end of their civilization? And that this prediction was made hundreds of years before the Spanish came?

An Aztec God was to come in the form of a white man and end the world around the same time the Spanish actually did come, so goes the claim. Now THAT is amazing if true. And is far more accurate than anything I've seen in the Quran.

Aztec predictions easily rival muslim ones. Do a search on it and you may be amazed.

Does that prove their religious beliefs true?

 

[Mr. Baldy]

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

if i said that there is the same probability of a bar of gold jumping out of your monitor as the big bang, would you sit and wait for it?

 

[Pygoscelis]

if i said that there is the same probability of a bar of gold jumping out of your monitor as the big bang, would you sit and wait for it?

I think the point is that a God is even MORE unlikely.

 

[------]

Now THAT is amazing if true. And is far more accurate than anything I've seen in the Quran.

U sure u been reading the Qur'an :rollseyes

 

[lolwatever]

Yes Oblers paradox is evidence against an infinite universe, but not proof. It certainly says nothing with regard to multiple universes or an infinite number thereof (which is possible I suppose, but who really knows)

But the point is, when what the creator (yeh u reckon its not) is telling us 'look i already told you guys what you discovered, because i made it, i knew it before you did, just like the way i made laws for the operation of universe physically, i've given you guys laws to follow in real life so you can succeed in both lives'

that seriously doesn't even stir you for a wink of an eye? :? There's nothing to prove that anything else created this universe.. nothign at all, they're just assumptions and a tonne of hypothesis, but if we're told a millenium ago by someone who was admitted to be truthful even by his proponents that this is all a creation by Allah, probability would tell you that the prophet didn't come up with this himself out of no where.

What does the premise of everything existing requiring a creator have to do with time? If everything that exists needs a creator then God needs a creator. If God doesn't need a creator then not everything that exists needs a creator, and that could include the universe.

Everything that has a beginning has something that caused it, Allah exists outside of time bounds, so to say taht there must be somethign that created him is a self defeating statement, because to him past present and future is the same.

The universe is time bound, whether its infinite or not, if Allah exists outside of time/space domain, why would an infinite universe bother him? he's infinitely more infinite than it.

? What is this mysterious 'time domain' that God is outside? Did God create time? Hasn't time by definition always been? When we start talking about time like something that hasn't always been around we're starting to go wonky.

By our definition yes, because we're restricted by time. Ofcourse Allah created time, otherwise why is past present and future already known before it even happened to us? When you understand that, it comes as no surprise that Allah is able to reveal to his messengers prophcies adn information that wasn't physically possible for humanity todiscover till a millenium and a half later.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. One thought doesn't seem to follow the next in the above. What do time, the universe, a complex God and his existence all have to do with one another?

sorry if it wasnt clear.. basically you're suggesting that if the universe was infinite, means that 'by definition' its always been so it makes the concept of god irrelevent... i'm saying... by definition Allah is far more infinite than it and you can't use the argument "everythign that exists need a creator, therefore soemthign must have craeted god", becasue taht implies god would have a beginning... which contradicts the very definition of god! (no the xclamation isnt shouting ... lol)

Well eventually of course it will. This planet will go boom. No need for devine wisdom to know that. I could have told you that and I bet Ug and Thog the cave men of millions of years ago could have too.

lol if that aws the case... funny how every messenger who told that to his people ridiculed him and found it an insane thing to say. But that wasnt the point, in that thread what was more amazing aws teh way alalh described teh solar system blowing apart.. the simulation the guy presented was sooo similar to the description Allah told us.

and btw.. i'm not using science to judge teh quran.. it's visa versa. All i'm saying is.. if science came to agree with somethign that Allah told us, it just makes Allah's existance even more felt.

Look to the thread I posted for my response, and that of many others to this. I'm not going to replicate a whole thread to tie to this now aged one.

Yes i saw that link to the post u provided the ostrich egg thing? what does that have to do with our discussion about god... but in short for anyone who's fair minded it's obvious the aspect of teh earth that the quran that was hinting to (the fact that it's not actually spherical in shape.. more of an ellipsoid) and using an ostrich egg rather than a chicken indicates that the description was as precise as possible (precise enough to not confuse the people of the past who didn't know about it, and precise enough to serve as a miracle).

That may be the crux of it, and I bet MANY could have, and many did. Look at the post int he thread referred to above regarding the greeks.

could u direct link me to it? its too long to sift thru... Yes there's nostradamus and other intrigues, but the greeks didn't come with anything perfect... the difference is that the quran came with a complete and perfect message and presented us signs as evidence for it's legitimacy. The other nation's regardless of what they came with... don't have much to offer.

Only to a Muslim, which is why they become or remain Muslim.

Yep... to people who became Muslim's because it makes sense.

And if you want to talk about devine prediction and the Aztecs, did you know that it is claimed that they predicted the end of their civilization? And that this prediction was made hundreds of years before the Spanish came?

Aztecs had a messenger (can someone remind me what they're referred to as in the quran? cant be majoos..), and predicting the end of their civilisation isn't anything really fancy..... what's more amazing si when Allah told his messenger the politicla phases that Muslims will go thru (a khilafah, followed by kingdoms/dynasties followed by tyranny which will be followed by a khilafah) and we're in the 3rd phase.... and what's more amazing is teh prediction that constantinople would fall to the Muslims under the best of leaders and armies (and Muslims agree that Sultan Muhammad II was amongst the better of the Otomans). and what's more amazing is the prophets description of the person who Umar would meet... as well as the prediction of the huge fire that would erupt in madinah and its effects reach into sham... as well as the prediction that umar and uthman and ali would be killed and not abu bakr. As well as the prediction that aisha was going to have a conflict with ali, as well as the prophecy that suraqah ibn malik was going to wear the robes of kisraa (roman king i dunno wat they call him in english)... as well as the prediction that when people fornicate diseases will spread in them that have never existed in their forefathers (std's) which cause death (e.g. aids)...

and many others... now.. that's much more amazing than someone predicting that he's going to die. lol

An Aztec God was to come in the form of a white man and end the world around the same time the Spanish actually did come, so goes the claim. Now THAT is amazing if true. And is far more accurate than anything I've seen in the Quran.

and we know the spanish aint god... they certainly don't have anythign godly about them... in the quran Allah informed the prophet the romans where going to defeat the persians in "bidh-i sineen" few years (and in linguistically it means between 3-5 years and this was on the day news came to makkah that the persians had defeated them in a major battle. and it became true.... your issue is that you're looking at the quran without an open mind, that's why it doesnt really appeal to you.

Aztec predictions easily rival muslim ones. Do a search on it and you may be amazed.

if their message was left in tact im sure they'd have predictions that rival ours... because their original message was from the same creator. Even the bible has the interseting scientific mention in a fwe places... like springs in the ocean which probably is a remnant from the original scriptures given to jesus.

Does that prove their religious beliefs true?

As far as what they think fo god.. ofcourse not, because tehir definitions of god have more problems than solutions. The messages that their prophets came with where obviously true and we believe its the same message that was delivered to us... Down the track the beliefs got twisted and we know that Islam's idea of teh world ending is far more accurate than the aztecs