Truth= god does not exist?

[lolwatever]

U sure u been reading the Qur'an :rollseyes

das wat occured to me too mg: n joey by now is a mufassir :giggling:

 

[Pygoscelis]

but if we're told a millenium ago by someone who was admitted to be truthful even by his proponents that this is all a creation by Allah, probability would tell you that the prophet didn't come up with this himself out of no where.

Your language is unclear and hard to follow.

First, I think you mean opponents?

Second, how on earth could they know he was being truthful? And obviously they couldn't know if he was right but being opponents they by definition don't think he was.

Third, come up with what exactly? I don't believe he came up with much that is amazing.

Fourth, even if he did come up with something who is to say he arrived at it independently of those who came before him?

Everything that has a beginning has something that caused it, Allah exists outside of time bounds, so to say taht there must be somethign that created him is a self defeating statement, because to him past present and future is the same.

So you are essentially saying that nobody created God because nobody had to create God because he's God and part of being God means nobody created him? Seems awfully circular to me.

And now that you're claiming a God that is beyond Time etc I think you've made this God even MORE amazing and even thus even MORE unlikely. That makes any competing explanation of how the universe was created, or the idea that it wasn't, that much more likely.

sorry if it wasnt clear.. basically you're suggesting that if the universe was infinite, means that 'by definition' its always been so it makes the concept of god irrelevent...

I haven't said anything like that. Those are three entirely different notions and I don't see the connection between them.

The universe may be infinite. Why would that mean it always has existed? Or even that it has always been infinite for that matter? These are all just ideas and just as likely as unlikely by any means of us knowing.

And the concept of God is irrelvant because of either of the above two ideas? Why? Weird straw man argument you are assigning to me.

and btw.. i'm not using science to judge teh quran.. it's visa versa.

You're using the quran to judge science? That's scary.

All i'm saying is.. if science came to agree with somethign that Allah told us, it just makes Allah's existance even more felt.

That is known as confirmation bias. Its a common psychological phenomenon. You are more likely to notice things that confirm your biases and not notice those that go against it. You're also likely to interpret data according to your bias.

Yes i saw that link to the post u provided the ostrich egg thing?

Ostrich egg thing? wha---? Did I mispost the link? I posted the one from my email notification. Is that some kind of code that won't lead everybody to the same link or something?

Here. I'll try again:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...theists-must-watch-video-3-42-time-video.html

could u direct link me to it? its too long to sift thru...

Hmm on second thought maybe I did post the right link. The greeks in this post are refering to the shape of the world too:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...eists-must-watch-video-3-42-time-video-2.html

KAding's post about the Greeks.

Hope the linking works. I'm not familiar with how to do it.

Yes there's nostradamus and other intrigues, but the greeks didn't come with anything perfect... the difference is that the quran came with a complete and perfect message and presented us signs as evidence for it's legitimacy.

I'd suggest you post these claims there, as I don't think anybody else is looking at this thread but that one is still active.

 

[Malaikah]

Second, how on earth could they know he was being truthful? And obviously they couldn't know if he was right but being opponents they by definition don't think he was.

Because he was loved by his people before he became a prophet. He was known as 'the trustworthy'! He was a very noble person and everyone knew that... and even when he came to tell his people for the first time in public about what God had told him, he told them 'if i told you an army was coming to attack, would you believe me?' and they said yes. So then he told him the message, and they turned against him.

He has a great reputation, and he was 40 years old when he received the revelation, so thats heaps of time for his opponents to get to know him.

 

[Malaikah]

So you are essentially saying that nobody created God because nobody had to create God because he's God and part of being God means nobody created him? Seems awfully circular to me.

And now that you're claiming a God that is beyond Time etc I think you've made this God even MORE amazing and even thus even MORE unlikely. That makes any competing explanation of how the universe was created, or the idea that it wasn't, that much more likely.

Umm... we are talking about GOD here. He is amazing, to say the least. We cant even comprehend how amazing He is, we just dont have the capacity. Its real perfection. God cant be bound by what He has created.

But its easier to believe that the amazing universe that we live in was created by an even more amazing God. How could the universe come from nowhere?? :heated:

Btw, I dont know if anyone mentioned this yet, but all explanations offered by science say nothing about how the universe was created. They only offer an explanation about what happened after it was created. For example, the big bang theory only explains what happened immediately after the universe was created, not how it was created.

So it has nothing to do with proving God does not exist, rather it provides yet more proof for the people who understand that this universe it too amazing to have been a chance event, and yet too limited to have created itself.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But its easier to believe that the amazing universe that we live in was created by an even more amazing God.

Why is that more easy for you to believe? Its much harder for me to believe. You believe something even more amazing easier than something less amazing?

How could the universe come from nowhere??

How could God exist?

The second question is more amazing that the first. So if the argument is that something is too amazing to have come about in its own (the unvierse) that should doubly apply to something even MORE amazing (God).

Btw, I dont know if anyone mentioned this yet, but all explanations offered by science say nothing about how the universe was created. They only offer an explanation about what happened after it was created.

Probably because scientists have no empirical way of knowing how it was created (assuming that it was).

What is so wrong with admitting you don't know something?

And regarding the story you presented about his opponents etc, are you getting this from the Quran itself? If so, that isn't recognized as a credible authority by non muslims.

 

[lolwatever]

Your language is unclear and hard to follow.

First, I think you mean opponents?

oops ya ur right... i meant 'proponents and even opponents'.... referring to the people of quraysh before he came with the message.

Second, how on earth could they know he was being truthful? And obviously they couldn't know if he was right but being opponents they by definition don't think he was.

his opponents attested to his truthfulness before the message, and accused him of all sorts of things when he came with it. just like what happened to most other messengers and prophets.

How could they know he was being truthful? There's only one way... to disprove the qurans claim that its lingustic style is humanly impossible to replicate... amongst the other physical miracles the prophet showed the people of makkah (splitting of the moon, journey to aqsa and being able to describe it to them with full detail) amongst others. Things like that make it beyond doubt that it's not Muhammad PBUH iventing these beliefs for himself... nor did he engineer a vehicle that could travel to jerusalem in minutes.

Third, come up with what exactly? I don't believe he came up with much that is amazing.

the message... that there is no diety worthy of worship but Allah and that he is the final messenger. And that we didn't come into existance out of coincidence and for no puprose.

Fourth, even if he did come up with something who is to say he arrived at it independently of those who came before him?

I think its fair to say the prophet is perhaps the most heavily documented person in history of mankind, his life is so closely minotired and recorded that it leaves one beyond doubt that if he had travelled down to greece to get help from some philosophers it could have escaped the notice of his companions.... perhaps its from Allahs wisdom that he didn't permit the prophet to travel to abysinnia... incase people today accuse him of visiting philosophers and plageurising thier ideas. and even if he did... i think its easy to pick out considering the amount of inaccurate statemetns made by greek philosophers.

And i honestly don't think its a coincidence that the jews knew of the coming of the prophet centuries before his arrival... and quizzed him with the questions they knew no one could answer but him. And for the christians to have known that someoen would emerge from arabia with a "seal of prophecy" between his shoulders which was indeed the case (read biography of salman the persian for more info).

So you are essentially saying that nobody created God because nobody had to create God because he's God and part of being God means nobody created him? Seems awfully circular to me.

I think you're trying to confuse yourself to avoid the point...

It's simple. God by definition is the creator... to say something else created him implies he's not the creator, someone else is.

And now that you're claiming a God that is beyond Time etc I think you've made this God even MORE amazing and even thus even MORE unlikely. That makes any competing explanation of how the universe was created, or the idea that it wasn't, that much more likely.

why is it so hard to understand? It's more absurd to believe in a God who's bound by anything, including time. seeing your scientifically literate... how is it if i said "the idea that anything can exist outside the real numbers is insane"? people figured that there where integers, that was fair enough... coz it was within the real numbers... then decimals.. that's fair enough too, coz they do deal with fractions.. but along comes the idea that there's imaginary numbers that are outside the real domain... so what?

point is... you came to the conclusion that everything is bound by time because you're conditioned to think that, doesnt at all mean that Allah is... i mean that's exactly why Allah tells us that we're nothing like what we think he is that's why its pointless trying to understand Allah's form of existance, becasue it's something beyond what our mind is conditioned....... kinda like trying to explain that real numbers aren't the only numbers that exist to someone from the ice age (or even most people today) lol.

I haven't said anything like that. Those are three entirely different notions and I don't see the connection between them.

so then why did you bring the idea of an infinite universe into this discussion :?

The universe may be infinite. Why would that mean it always has existed? Or even that it has always been infinite for that matter? These are all just ideas and just as likely as unlikely by any means of us knowing.

And the concept of God is irrelvant because of either of the above two ideas? Why? Weird straw man argument you are assigning to me.

you totally lost me there... can u explain what ur tryin to say?

You're using the quran to judge science? That's scary.

The creator definately knows his creation more than someoen trying to reverse engineer something someoen else made.

If it was the other way around, Muslims would have forfeited their religion ages ago when it was "common knowledge that the earth was flat".

That is known as confirmation bias. Its a common psychological phenomenon. You are more likely to notice things that confirm your biases and not notice those that go against it. You're also likely to interpret data according to your bias.

Erm then why did you jsut totally ignore that paragraph of prophecies i mentioned.... if it's confirmation bias, then show me how i'm being biased there? What, the prophet went to some universe dynamics simulator to simulate what hte world will be like in a couple decades/centuries and then came back to tell us wats gonna happen?

Ostrich egg thing? wha---? Did I mispost the link? I posted the one from my email notification. Is that some kind of code that won't lead everybody to the same link or something?

Here. I'll try again:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...theists-must-watch-video-3-42-time-video.html



Hmm on second thought maybe I did post the right link. The greeks in this post are refering to the shape of the world too:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...eists-must-watch-video-3-42-time-video-2.html

KAding's post about the Greeks.

Hope the linking works. I'm not familiar with how to do it.

thats wat was on the link u gave me... if u wanna link me to a post, basically go to the post then right click on the 'permalink' button and click 'copy shortcut' and then paste it to me. should work inshalah...

the forum doesnt ban ppl from linking to other posts im pretty sure of that lol.

I'd suggest you post these claims there, as I don't think anybody else is looking at this thread but that one is still active.

You can't treat the two issues as seperate topics they're closely knitted to each other.

And i still don't see any refutation to the paintbucket analogy i gave... humans having two eyes which are required to judge distance accurately isn't a coincidence to me... and the conditions that amino acids had to withstand for thousands of years makes it infinitely likely taht there is an intelligent designer behind it all. not a matter of an inanimate universe creating another one...

 

[lolwatever]

Why is that more easy for you to believe? Its much harder for me to believe. You believe something even more amazing easier than something less amazing?

lol it's hard for me to believe that something infintely complex came about out of mere chance and that people inform us of things that are unseen out of mere personal ability.

the erst of ur stuff is answered in my post...

And regarding the story you presented about his opponents etc, are you getting this from the Quran itself? If so, that isn't recognized as a credible authority by non muslims.

From the hadith actually.. and the hadith is heavily authenticated by teh scholars we don't just accept hadiths becasue they make us or the prophet sound good.. checkout her blog under the hadith section and how its colelcted and verified...

 

[Charmbracelet]

Existence of God as a Reality or a Principle cannot be determined by scientific methods and it is beyond reason. It is not unreasonable, in fact it is very reasonable to assume that there is a principle underlying the creation. But the existence of a deity, as described by Semitic religions, is utterly unreasonable. Although the characteristics of this deity has changed gradually and the god of Moses who was a smoke-like anthromorphic god and the god of Rumi who is an unknowable essence are not the same, the general concept of this god has not changes. God in all these religions is a “being”. It is no more a physical being, and it may not be even a spiritual being, but it is still a being. It is a god that resembles humans. We don’t envision him any more as an old patriarch but we attribute to him our own human characteristics. He is no more imagined in our physical semblance, and some even hesitate to call him with a gender-biased pronoun. Yet in our subconscious mind God is our father, best friend, someone to pray to, someone to worship, someone to rely upon, and someone who loves us. We assume that God is intelligent, loving, caring, mighty, wise, help in peril and someone who would eventually come to succor us if we knocked on his door supplicating with utmost humility and meekness. He is a god that worries about us, who sends messengers to guide us, who rewards us either by giving us access to his paradise or by allowing us to associate with him more intimately when we die.

But this god is also a jealous god and is very paranoid. He does not like us worshiping another god and feels restless when we busy ourselves, making a living or enjoying life and forget to bow in front of him, (who is apparently everywhere) constantly. His messengers tell us that we should worship him for our own sake. But you don’t have to be Freud to realize that he actually enjoys being known and worshiped. In fact, if you fail to do so, he is offended so much that would take you to his cosmic rotisserie and barbeque you forever. That is a long time, I say. Don’t you think so?

 

[lolwatever]

^ we're talking about whether god exists or not, not about what god is.... its easy to respond to your statement

But the existence of a deity, as described by Semitic religions, is utterly unreasonable.

create another thread n we can discuss it there.

 

[Re.TiReD]

Peace to all,

I’ve read and re-read this thread and the comments many times, and I just wanna say that at the end of the day, you’re either gonna believe or you’re not, you’re either gonna understand the concept of God and a higher being or you’re not; there’s no other way around it.

I mean, if you’ve got the hang of a certain theory, its not gonna be difficult for you to understand it, but f you don’t understand it…at the end of the day its up to you. If somebody was really bothered about learning about Islam, they would go out and get some reliable books and read up on it, not have debates that are sometimes pointless and very much like written onslaughts.

They are blind and cannot see, says the Quran about those who deny the signs of God, but if you think you’ve got your own life in your hands, then believe what you like. No amount of persuading is going to make you think otherwise.

Whilst thinking about God and why some people fail to understand why we believe in Him, I remembered an email I once received, it was a conversation between a teacher and a student, I can’t remember all of it so here is my made up version.

Its not scientific proof of God (Even though I as a Muslim don’t need it) it’s not proof of God in any way shape or form, it’s just the answer to a question I have been asked many times…”HOW can you believe in a God?”

The student being a Muslim is trying to explain to his tutor the concept and understanding around God.

Student- Sir, Do you have a brain?

Tutor- Yes

Student- Can you see it?

Tutor- erm…no

Student- yet you still believe it exists and that you have one?

Tutor- yes of course

Student- and you believe in love, hate, warmth and the cold although you can’t see these things?

Tutor- yes…

Student- and yet you don’t believe in God?

Tutor- well no, I don’t; it’s absurd to believe in an invisible object/being having power and control over me.

Student- so you can believe that most of your thoughts and processes are controlled by your brain, even though your brain is- according to what you have said, as nonexistent as you seem to think God is? So if you can’t see your brain, I’d like to conclude that you don’t have one…how do you feel about that?

Tutor- that’s ridiculous! If you operate on anybody you’ll be able to see that they have a brain- it’s scientifically proven. When I’m dead you’d be able to open up my skull and you’d see my brain.
The student laughs and continues…

So all the while, you’re ready to believe you have a brain without ever having seen it, ok granted you’ve seen and know that other’s have a brain, but how can you be sure of yours? I mean, I can see other people worshipping their own Gods, but ultimately I have to believe in mine to set in concrete the fact that I have one.

You have to truly believe that you have a brain, even though you can’t see it and we would have to wait until you die to see if it is actually there. In the same way, I believe in God, I know he exists even though I can’t show Him to you, and I’m going to wait until we all die, and prove to you…that God does exist- Because if you can have an invisible brain, I CAN have a GOD.


not scientific proof, I know...but something to think about nevertheless

 

[------]

Erm...dreamer? ... U rock

 

[hakkerz]

Student- Sir, Do you have a brain?

Tutor- Yes

Student- Can you see it?

Tutor- erm…no

Student- yet you still believe it exists and that you have one?

Tutor- yes of course

Student- and you believe in love, hate, warmth and the cold although you can’t see these things?

Tutor- yes…

Student- and yet you don’t believe in God?

Tutor- well no, I don’t; it’s absurd to believe in an invisible object/being having power and control over me.

Student- so you can believe that most of your thoughts and processes are controlled by your brain, even though your brain is- according to what you have said, as nonexistent as you seem to think God is? So if you can’t see your brain, I’d like to conclude that you don’t have one…how do you feel about that?

Tutor- that’s ridiculous! If you operate on anybody you’ll be able to see that they have a brain- it’s scientifically proven. When I’m dead you’d be able to open up my skull and you’d see my brain.
The student laughs and continues…

So all the while, you’re ready to believe you have a brain without ever having seen it, ok granted you’ve seen and know that other’s have a brain, but how can you be sure of yours? I mean, I can see other people worshipping their own Gods, but ultimately I have to believe in mine to set in concrete the fact that I have one.

You have to truly believe that you have a brain, even though you can’t see it and we would have to wait until you die to see if it is actually there. In the same way, I believe in God, I know he exists even though I can’t show Him to you, and I’m going to wait until we all die, and prove to you…that God does exist- Because if you can have an invisible brain, I CAN have a GOD.

Hmm, nice arguement.lol..but unfortunately, due to the technicalities, it doesnt really stand. We are bound by scientific laws,and cause and effect.Therefore the cause of me talking is my lips moving and air vibrating through ..blah blah.lol..Allah (swt) however has no cause and effect,and therefore, it doesnt really apply to Him. But none the less, nice analogy to draw upon.

Take Care Bro

Asking your duaas and supplications

Peace.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

There was a better one, much longer, and included more scientific stuff in it. Too bad i lost it.

 

[lolwatever]

Hmm, nice arguement.lol..but unfortunately, due to the technicalities, it doesnt really stand. We are bound by scientific laws,and cause and effect.Therefore the cause of me talking is my lips moving and air vibrating through ..blah blah.lol..Allah (swt) however has no cause and effect,and therefore, it doesnt really apply to Him. But none the less, nice analogy to draw upon.

Take Care Bro

Asking your duaas and supplications

Peace.

actually one interesting thing tho.. what causes the neurons to fire and cause us to do something has been something that recently intrigued me

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ and has now also intrigued me, i didnt think of that

its amazing, Allahs signs are everywhere. How people try argue with such finite minds, its laughable ,

;D <--- like that, just laughable !

 

[lolwatever]

^ and has now also intrigued me, i didnt think of that

its amazing, Allahs signs are everywhere. How people try argue with such finite minds, its laughable ,

;D <--- like that, just laughable !

also the thing about

You believe something even more amazing easier than something less amazing?

perhaps its easier to believe than a rock designed a car instead of an engineer.. rocks r less amazing than engineers ;D

 

[lolwatever]

and also.... who on earth would believe you fi u said a tornado thrasehd around a garage with bits n pieces of steel and then formed a BMW out of it :? athiests seem to think its possible that other inanimate things (multiple universes or watever u wanna call it) could hav formed this complex existance.....

it doesnt matter what they wanan call it alien or whatever, point is it's not something inanimate, it was intelligent design! evrythign aroudn us indicates it.

subhanallah...
salams

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

perhaps its easier to believe than a rock designed a car instead of an engineer.. rocks r less amazing than engineers ;D

;D


A man was once shown a very detailed descrive sculpture of nothing more then the milkyway. He was so amazed, so astounded, at a mere sculpture, naming the many stars and constellations, looking at the beautiful art work and then when he asked who created this he didnt even think of God. But truelly God created this and far more, he created the heavens !


ok i kno i sound like some preacher lol, but seriously, jus look up, tell me wat cud hav created that (no not at that ceilin at the sky :anger lol

 

[Pygoscelis]

You can make all sorts of lofty claims about how the Quran has true prophecies etc. I have not read the Quran in full and certainly not in its original language nor do I care to do so. I gave you a link to a thread where others (Trumble, KAdling, etc) who seem to know more about your book than I do can debate these so called prophecies.

I doubt your prophecies the same way that you doubt those of the ancient Aztecs or Nostradamus or ancient egyptians or ancient pagan druids (which I'll wager you have not read in detail and don't care to). You claim your prophecies to be true. That is fine. That is expected, you being a believer in that religoin. It says nothing about this creationist claim though.

For all your cryptic and abrassive language you still have the same basic flaw in logic that was in this thread 10 pages ago and that no creationist has been able to make sense of.

If you start with the base premise that complexity and wonderfulness requires design, ie the universe is too marvellous to have come about without a designer, then you can not violate that premise without destroying your train of logic.

Do you understand that? You don't seem to. This is the central flaw in the argument by wonder (watchmaker argument).

By saying God, even more complex and wonderful has always existed or exists outside of time (weird) or whatever and doesn't need a designer, you've violated your base premise and destroyed the original creationist claim about the universe.

It is really that simple.

 

[lolwatever]

If you start with the premise that complexity and wonderfulness requires design, ie the universe is too marvellous to have come about without a designer, then you can not violate that premise without destroying your train of logic.

But the universe is an inamiate thing, the mechanisms you see and the perfection of the system by logic demadns that there was a control system behind it, and it's illogical to suggest that something inanimate could create something like this out of nothing.

It seems you're the one dancing aroudn coz u literally dodged chunks of my points. And i'm not tryign to be cryptic... just mentioni what you dont undersatnd and i'll explain.

By saying God, even more complex and wonderful has always existed or exists outside of time (weird) or whatever and doesn't need a designer, you've violated that premise and destroyed the original claim about the universe.

That's coz you're limited and god isn't limited. What's so hard to comprehend that time is a creation? just like matter? isn't time another dimension just like spatial dimensions :?

You're trying to convince me that this all could have occurred out of pure probability... if you read my tornado example... would you believe it if someoen told you taht? yes? no? if no... then what makes you believe that this univereas could have come to exist out of pure randomness... it's even more absurd than the tornado eaxmple i gave.

i'm not dancing around anything, i make a point out of replyign to people paragraph by paragraph, to exaclty avoid beign acused of that very thing!