truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
I also like some of the ideas of panentheism---such as the idea that the created is IN the Divine. Such an idea can explain the vastness of Divine-presence without dividing it---so this aspect of panentheism would be interesting in terms of Tawheed.

Yessir. Glad you see that, bro. I am a panENtheist, fyi. I got there through process theology, but got grounded in it via Eastern Christian theology (rather than Western, like I had before.)

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Siam:
are you familiar with Miroslav Volf?---I'm not very--but read a few commentaries of his works---it seems he has the idea of a Tri-unity (apparently based on something the Anglican Archbishop wrote)...that says that the 3 "aspects"/persons of God do not act on their own---that is, they have only one will and all act as a unit together.
what do you think?

1) Yes, I'm familiar with Volf. He is actively in the Muslim/Christian interfaith dialogue going on currently. Also, Volf wrote an excellent stuff on Islam/Christian theological exposition.

2) I would agree with his general theological perspective. The "one will" is the will of God the Father which is shared by his Word/Memra and his Spirit/Breath. This is standard Christian orthodoxy.

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Siam:
As to the created/uncreated combination----if we take the view that the idea that the created is IN the (undivided) Divine---then such a state/combination cannot be rejected outright...

YES!


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Siam:
but that brings me to the problem I have with the idea of incarantion. Incarnation is essentially pantheistic--that is, the idea that the "created" has a divinity (or that God is IN all things)---but such an idea seems to divide God into many peices......as if interconnected parts of the divine permeate all things.....This would not work well with Tawheed.

Actually, the Incarnation works perfectly fine in panENtheism. One doesn't have to believe in pantheism to believe in the Incarnation. The permeation of Divine Presence in all things--being the continual source of all Creation--doesn't necessitate pantheism; panentheism explicitly says that Divine Presence permeates and grounds all Creation without being seen merely coterminous with Creation. THAT would be pantheism.

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Siam:
So ---in reference to your questions---basically, right now I am trying to figure out what parameters would be acceptable to me under Tawheed and which would not....
---I found your statement about a "necessary triune" interesting. ---I am thinking on that.....

Good deal, bro. Just remember...Christianly speaking, everything is grounded in the One God mentioned in the Shema, God the Father. That's extremely important to keep in front of us. The Trinity, as I see it, is just the eternal event of God the Father in self-relationship and self-communication, this being a necessarily triune personal, self-revelatory process. It is by the power of God's "Breath", that God the Father speaks his self-revealing, creative Word: "I Am (that I Am)!" (Think Tetragammaton...)

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Siam:
so you are saying that the "God-incarnate" is subordinate to God-Supreme?

Yes, insofar as Jesus of Nazareth himself says so. Jesus always willingingly subjects himself to the will of God the Father...and declared that he did nothing without the Father's power and authorization. ("The Father is greater than I.") Yes they have the same nature (insofar as both God and God's Word/Memra are uncreated), but God's Word is "begotten" of God, not the other way around. And God the Father's will is where the Word's expression comes from.

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Siam: the angels weren't worshipping (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God.

YO: Nope, they weren't. So, are you saying that if Christians "bow the knee" to Jesus in absolute universal lordship being God the Father's chosen Lord and Messiah...but DIDN'T worship him as the Eternal Word/Son of God...then you'd have no problem, right?

Siam:Yes (Depending on how you defined "Lord")---but it's what I suggested previously----and some Christians are actually moving in this direction---I think its called the emerging church or something like that.......

Interesting...


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Siam:
Ok--so what exactly is this Tri-Unity composed of?
a) God-Supreme, God-Son, Holy Ghost
b) God-Supreme, "Word", Holy Spirit
c) God-Supreme, "Word", Schechina (Sakina in Arabic---translated as the Spirit of traquility)
or perhaps.....
God uses all kinds of "agencies" in his creative process such as "Word", Holy Spirit, God's breath, Sakina, Angels, Spirit, laws, forces ...etc.

God the Father (God-Supreme, I guess), the Word/Memra/Son of God the Father, the Spirit/Breath of God the Father. These are Scripturally justifiable and the sine qua non of the One Speaking, Self-Disclosing God.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

And just because.

The Sufi ideas of "fanaa" and "baqaa" correspond quite well with the Jewish Kabbalah idea of "Bitul"
Check it out...

Bitul is the spiritual state associated with the inner experience of chochmah, whereby one's consciousness opens up to a continuous flow of Divine wisdom and new insight through one's nullifying his sense of autonomous and self-sustained being. Bitul is the experience of ayin, of being nothing within the omnipresent radiance of God's infinite light. In general, there are two identified levels of bitul:

Bitul b'metziut ("existential nullification") constitutes the absolute form of bitul whereby one loses all sense of independent existence. This is the state of bitul in the world of Atzilut, whose consciousness, permeated by the supernal level of chochmah (Abba mekanen b'Atzilut), is solely that of God's omnipresence.

Bitul hayesh ("nullification of [one's] somethingness") constitutes a lower form of bitul whereby one is consciously involved in the process of nullifying the outer layer of self (ego). This is accomplished by the concentrated effort to experience the continual recreation of all reality, including oneself, as "something from nothing." This impresses upon one's consciousness that there is no independent reality attached to one's sense of "somethingness." This is the state of bitul present within the three lower worlds of Beriah, Yetzirah and Asiyah, while its conscious experience is dependent upon one's Divine service. Divine consciousness in the three lower worlds derives from the chochmah of malchut d'Atzilut, referred to as the lower chochmah, thus giving rise to the lower level of bitul.

I believe that it was THIS TYPE of experience that lead Mansur Al-Hallaj to say things like "I am the truth." and "There is nothing in my cloak but God."

He got killed (gruesomely, I might add) for using mystical language among NON-mystical believers. Ouch.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

salaam

although this is way off topic but Mansur Al Hajjaj is an exception and is a heretic in many peoples eyes atleast outwardly - the vast majority of Sufis which are in Islam like Rabia of Basra (ra) Imam Al Ghazzali (ra) Junayd al Baghdadi (ra) and Hasan al Basri (ra) were far more sober sufis.

Jewsih Kabbala was heavily infleunced by sufism as it was heavily developed in the Middle ages. Many Jewsih writers were inflenced by Islamic thinkers, Moimendes is a great example.

But anyway back to the topic.

peace

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Zafran:
although this is way off topic but Mansur Al Hajjaj is an exception - the vast majority of Sufis which are in Islam like Rabia of Basra (ra) Imam Al Ghazzali (ra) Junayd al Baghdadi (ra) and Hasan al Basri (ra) were far more sober sufis.

Some points to note:

1) Sufism (ala the people Zafran mentions) IS legitimate Islamic expression, contra what Peacelover had said. To say that mysticism doesn't exist at all in Islam is patently false.

2) Al-Hallaj was on the same continuum as the other Sufis Zafran mentions. As I'm mentioned, his language is representative of a state of being known to mystical traditions in many different religions, including Judaism, Hinduism, and Eastern Christianity. Basically, it's when a person, by the power of God, sees themselves from the perspective of Divine Presence in Creation and see their "nothingness" in relationship to the Omni-Present working of God. It WRONGLY gets interpreted as idolatry...when it's truly a MISUNDERSTANDING of what is said.

3) A book for anyone who wants to no more about these states is: Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East. VERY, VERY good book. See googlebooks sample here...

4) Something to ponder....

At the height of Muslim "dhikr" and Christian "Prayer of the Heart"--when one is inwardly and mentally "still" before and attentive to the Omni-Presence of God--one can not tell the processes apart. BOTH PARTIES are doing this: "Be still and know that I am God."

If you had ten Sufi Muslims and ten Hesychast Christians in a room...and they were all dressed the same...and they were all in the height of dhikr silent rememberence and hesychastic stillness...you would not be able to tell any of the saints apart. They would actually be ONE in intention, purpose, and attention to Divine Presence, as they would be in utter humility before God. They would have left their mutually-exclusive beliefs behind in their "unknowing" before God...trhus becoming one with each other through the ONE Divine Presence they all experience.

Isn't that cool? :shade:

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

You have to remember that this forum has a wide spectrum of Muslims some who are anti sufi Just like you have christians that are purtanical all the way to liberal ones. So not everyone shares the same views of sufism here.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

A little detour...but I think it's worth it.

I'll give an example of how Al-Hallaj-like language happens when in mystical union with God in a Christian context.

One Christian mystic said this...

We awaken in Christ’s body as Christ awakens ours,
and my poor hand is Christ, He enters my foot, and is infinitely me.
I move my hand, and wonderfully my hand becomes Christ, becomes all Christ – for God is indivisibly whole, seamless in Godhood.
I move my foot, and at once God appears like a flash of lightning.
Do my words seem blasphemous?
Then open your heart to God and let yourself receive the One who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love God, we wake up inside Christ’s body where all our body, all over, every most hidden part of it, is realized in joy as Christ, making us utterly real,
And everything that is hurt, everything that seemed to us dark, harsh shameful, maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged, is in God transformed
and recognized as whole, as lovely, and radiant in God’s light.
As we awaken as the Beloved in every last part of our body.
~St. Symeon the New Theologian

Now how many Christians do you think were offended by this kinda language?

Yeeeeeeeaah. A lot of fellow believers got offended. (Notice his struggle with the Church becuase of his mysticism) And he seemed aware of that possibility...but loved God too much to care that much.

It just happens like this with mystical language. The language of mystical union seems SO CLOSE to "calling oneself God" that others can't handle it...and PERSECUTE the mystics. Here is a possible contemporary example.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Zafran:
You have to remember that this forum has wide spectrum of Muslims some who are anti sufi Just like you have christians that are purtanical all the way to liberal ones. So not everyone shares the same views of sufism here.

Duly noted, Zafran. Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Wiki totally had this right...


The above-quoted Midrash is even of greater importance for the understanding of the Pauline Christology, as affording the key to Paul's doctrine of the first and second Adam. The main passage in Pauline Christology is 1 Corinthians 15:45-50. According to this there is a double form of man's existence; for God created a heavenly Adam in the spiritual world and an earthly one of clay for the material world. The earthly Adam came first into view, although created last. The first Adam was of flesh and blood and therefore subject to death—merely "a living soul"; the second Adam was "a life-giving spirit"—a spirit whose body, like the heavenly beings in general, was only of a spiritual nature.

As a pupil of Gamaliel, Paul simply operates with conceptions familiar to the Palestinian theologians. Messiah, as the Midrash remarks, is, on the one hand, the first Adam, the original man who existed before Creation, his spirit being already present. On the other hand, he is also the second Adam in so far as his bodily appearance followed the Creation, and inasmuch as, according to the flesh, he is of the posterity of Adam.

With Philo the original man is an idea; with Paul He is the pre-existent Logos, incarnate as the man Jesus Christ. With Philo the first man is the original man; Paul identifies the original man with the second Adam. The Christian Apostle evidently drew upon the Palestinian theology of his day; but it can not be denied that in ancient times this theology was indebted to the Alexandrians for many of its ideas, and probably among them for that of pre-existence. The Midrash thus considered affords a suitable transition to the Gnostic theories of the original man.


Digression: The idea that Paul was merely an overly-Hellenistic Jew who pandered non-Jewish doctrines to Gentiles to "start" Christianity completely goes against the facts of the matter. This is all deeply embedded in JEWISH thought.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

All of which ties back...

Given everything talked about so far, can proposing a theological model based upon a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth, actually convey intelligibility such that the statements "the Word became flesh and dwelt among men" or "Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God" are meaningful statements?

I believe the answer is "yes." This theological model describes how Jesus is "immortal" and "mortal" at the same time.

What say you, Siam?

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Yo. This may help, Siam. You're into the Tawhid and panentheism a bit. Check this out...

In Islamic mysticism (Sufism and Irfan), Tawhid is not only the affirmation in speech of God's unity, but also as importantly a practical and existential realization of that unity. This is done by rejecting the concepts tied to the world of multiplicity, to isolate the eternal from the temporal in a practical way. The ideal is a radical purification from all worldliness.

For Muslim mystics (sufis), the affirmation in speech of God's unity is only the first step of Tawhid. Further steps involve a spiritual experience for the existential realization of that unity. Categorizations of different steps of Tawhid could be found in the works of Muslims Sufis like Junayd Baghdadi and al-Ghazali. It involves a practical rejection of the concepts tied to the world of multiplicity.Al-Junayd for example "distinguishes four steps, starting from the simple attestation of unicity which is sufficient for ordinary believers, and culminating in the highest rank reserved for the elite, when the creature totally ceases to exist before his Lord, thus achieving al-fanā fi al-tawhīd [annihilation in unity]."

According to the concept of Annihilation and Subsistence, "Man's existence, or ego, or self-hood...must be annihilated so that he can attain to his true self which is his existence and "subsistence" with God. All of man's character traits and habits, everything that pertains to his individual existence must become completely naughted and "obliterated" (mahw). Then God will give back to him his character traits and everything positive he ever possessed. But at this stage he will know consciously and actually - not just theoretically - and with a through spiritual realization, that everything he is derives absolutely from God. He is nothing but a ray of God's Attributes manifesting the Hidden Treasure."

The first detailed formulation of "Unity of Existence" (wahdat al-wujud) is closely associated to Ibn Arabi. Widely different interpretations of the meaning of the "Unity of Existence" have been proposed throughout the centuries by critics, defenders, and Western scholars. Ibn Arabi himself didn't use the term "Unity of Existence" and similar statements had been made by those before him. For example, according to al-Ghazali "There is nothing in wujud [existence] except God...Wujud [Existence] only belongs to the Real One". Ghazali explains that the fruit of spiritual ascent of the Sufi is to "witness that there is no existence in the world save God and that 'All things are perishing except his face' (Qur'an 28:88)"

This all goes VERY WELL with a panentheistic take on the Omni-Present God, who is the Absolute Unity of Existence...as well as the "fanaa" and "baqaa" ideas I talked about earlier. And ALL OF THIS is compatible with the One Self-Disclosing, Self-Communication activity of God the Father unto being an uncreated necessarily triune personal being.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

1) Sufism (ala the people Zafran mentions) IS legitimate Islamic expression, contra what Peacelover had said. To say that mysticism doesn't exist at all in Islam is patently false

Note that bro Zafran said that they "were far more sober sufis"....but the question is did they label themselves as Sufis??....Probably they just went extremes worshipping God Almighty....i dunno much about them ...still have to read a lot.. *sighs*

But, I still haven't given up the idea that Sufis are deviant...

To say that mysticism doesn't exist at all in Islam is patently false.

Mysticism, be it a part of Sufism or not is NOT acceptable in Islam.....the concept itself is wrong!!..logically speaking, it doesn't make sense!...and such people who claim to be "one" with God are heretics....i ain't referring to any one specifically...don't get me wrong.

But as for al-Hallaj...he definitely was a heretic, as i said earlier he claimed to be God (now isn't that nonsense)...Do you think God was pleased by this??....and why else do you think he was executed??

He got killed (gruesomely, I might add) for using mystical language among NON-mystical believers. Ouch.

It served him right!!...and btw, coming up with terms ("mystical language") doesn't justify it at all!!....Use your logic...don't you see any fault in such kinda practices??....when God Himself said..that He has made our religion easy for us to follow...then why complicate it??

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

i just want to let you know that i'm aware of your post peace_lover and i hope to respond soon (either later on in the evening or tomorrow afternoon).

How much longer do I have to wait??
lol...jk...take your time bro.

now, i definitely expect a reply worth waiting!! hehe

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Yo. This may help, Siam. You're into the Tawhid and panentheism a bit. Check this out...

In Islamic mysticism (Sufism and Irfan), Tawhid is not only the affirmation in speech of God's unity, but also as importantly a practical and existential realization of that unity. This is done by rejecting the concepts tied to the world of multiplicity, to isolate the eternal from the temporal in a practical way. The ideal is a radical purification from all worldliness.

For Muslim mystics (sufis), the affirmation in speech of God's unity is only the first step of Tawhid. Further steps involve a spiritual experience for the existential realization of that unity. Categorizations of different steps of Tawhid could be found in the works of Muslims Sufis like Junayd Baghdadi and al-Ghazali. It involves a practical rejection of the concepts tied to the world of multiplicity.Al-Junayd for example "distinguishes four steps, starting from the simple attestation of unicity which is sufficient for ordinary believers, and culminating in the highest rank reserved for the elite, when the creature totally ceases to exist before his Lord, thus achieving al-fanā fi al-tawhīd [annihilation in unity]."

According to the concept of Annihilation and Subsistence, "Man's existence, or ego, or self-hood...must be annihilated so that he can attain to his true self which is his existence and "subsistence" with God. All of man's character traits and habits, everything that pertains to his individual existence must become completely naughted and "obliterated" (mahw). Then God will give back to him his character traits and everything positive he ever possessed. But at this stage he will know consciously and actually - not just theoretically - and with a through spiritual realization, that everything he is derives absolutely from God. He is nothing but a ray of God's Attributes manifesting the Hidden Treasure."

The first detailed formulation of "Unity of Existence" (wahdat al-wujud) is closely associated to Ibn Arabi. Widely different interpretations of the meaning of the "Unity of Existence" have been proposed throughout the centuries by critics, defenders, and Western scholars. Ibn Arabi himself didn't use the term "Unity of Existence" and similar statements had been made by those before him. For example, according to al-Ghazali "There is nothing in wujud [existence] except God...Wujud [Existence] only belongs to the Real One". Ghazali explains that the fruit of spiritual ascent of the Sufi is to "witness that there is no existence in the world save God and that 'All things are perishing except his face' (Qur'an 28:88)"

This all goes VERY WELL with a panentheistic take on the Omni-Present God, who is the Absolute Unity of Existence...as well as the "fanaa" and "baqaa" ideas I talked about earlier. And ALL OF THIS is compatible with the One Self-Disclosing, Self-Communication activity of God the Father unto being an uncreated necessarily triune personal being.

Thanks YO that was interesting---though I am familiar with some of Al-Ghazali's ideas---however, I'm afraid you may be mistaken----Sufism (I am not one) is firmly rooted in Islam/Quran/Tawheed. My understanding from what Al-Ghazali says,(in other works) is that the "unity" they are speaking of is Islam---or "Submission". (not incarnation or panentheism)

let me explain......
Muslims (of whatever label) are absolutely uncompromising in Tawheed. (Oneness/Unity of God)

Incarnation=Divine decended into a "created" form.
Hinduism/Christianity=The decent of the Divine into the "created" form for worship.
Polytheism=Many divinities, divine forms and/or incarnations worshipped.
Pantheism/Panentheism=Divine-in created/created-in-Divine, either way, a union of Divine-presence with all creation.

Tawheed(Unity)= God is One, Independent of his creation, but all creation is dependent on him.

None of the ideas mentioned above fit with Tawheed, and I would reject them....but then, how do I explain Divine-presence?
First let me explain why I reject panentheism---I like the idea of the created-in-Divine but reject any notion that therefore creation is "united"/interdependent with the Divine or that it has divinity at any level. There is only One God, the Uncreated, and therefore the "created" cannot be divine in ANY sense.
---here is a bad analogy which will have to do---
Think of a vast ocean of water---in this ocean is a little peice of sponge---the water permeates the sponge and surrounds it but the sponge is not water, it is not ocean either......it remains a sponge.
When understood in the framework of Tawheed, what this means is that though Divine-presence permeates and surrounds us, we remain the "created"(---completely dependent on the Creator)---this aspect does not change at all. The only thing that changes is the level of our awareness (Taqwa) of Divine-presence....from being unaware of it to being extremely aware of it. This awareness creates in us "willing submission" or Islam. When we look at nature and think we feel "Divine-presence"---what we are actually precieving is the total "submission" of nature (to God's will)---or Islam.

Therefore, from my perspective, Jesus Christ(pbuh) would be one who is at the highest level of God-awareness(Taqwa) which would automatically make his "nature" as one who willingly submits to God's will. (or---Muslim/Mohsin) but there is also another side. God is One, Undivided, Independent. Therefore our awareness of Divine-presence---also makes us aware of God as "All-Knowing"---that is, because Divine-presence permeates and surrounds us at all times, God is perfectly and intimately "All-Knowing". (IMO, this awareness of God's attribute of "all-Knowing" would be the spiritual state of Ihsan).

Therefore, irrespective of the process of creation of Jesus Christ(pbuh)---the use of "Word" and/or Holy Spirit---He is created and so CANNOT have divinity. The special process of creation for Jesus Christ(pbuh) may give him a very high level of spirituality,Taqwa and Islam(Ihsan)---but he remains the created.....(completely dependent on the Creator and in total submission to him).

The "created" (us) change---we are born,live and die. When we develop/grow in spirituality---it is not that we are "filled" with the Divine, for God does not change.(Al-Hallaj) God does not "fill" some spaces or leave from some spaces. God is forever present. What changes is our perceptions/awareness/attitude. God always was, is, and will be, ---we change in our level of awareness. God is independent of us---but we are completely dependent upon him. That is why God is above all creation and all creation submits to him. Yet, at the same time, God is intimately personal. We---the created human beings---worship/submit to God directly and personally without intermediaries....it is a one-to-one intimacy....even though it is one-sided---that is, God is the All-Giving, we are the recievers/takers.....even our worship of God is for our benefit not God's.

annihilation in unity---simply means that OUR awareness of Divine presence is so high that we "willingly submit to God's will" (Islam) in such a way that our will is no longer evident/relevant to us---the "change" is completely on the side of humans/us. This change in us does not effect Divine-presence for God is independent of his creation. ----it matters not if creation exists or ceases to exist, God always was, is, and will be.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

In reading what you've said, Siam, it seems that you are concerned with the following things:

1) The Uncreated and Created are infinitely distinct such that there can be no fusion or confusion of the two realities.

2) Creation has no natural or necessary relationship to the Uncreated. Creation is not a "part" or direct "emanation" of the Uncreated. Basically, you don't want to in any way say that Creation is simply reducible to the Uncreated.

There's no problem with that stuff. Neither the ideas of "union with God" generally or the "hypostatic union" of Jesus in particular abridge these ideas. Here's why...

A) Panentheism says that the way that the Uncreated and Created are "in union" is strictly by the willed activity the Uncreated. In other words, Creation is utterly dependent upon the Presence of God for it's existence NOT because it is naturally linked to the Uncreated...but simply because without Divine Presence keeping Creation in existence by His willed activity, it would vanish into no-thingness. God is the Absolute Unity of Existence insofar as God is the singular presence that interpenetrates and grounds the existence of all particular things in Creation. This means that Creation is "in" the Omni-Present God locationally...and that God is "in" every particular in Creation as its transcendently immanent, permeating ground. A good analogy is a thinker and his thought. The thought is absolutely dependent upon the thinker for it's existence, but the thought is NOT the thinker, per se. If the thought vanishes, the one who thinks remains. This means that there is a relationship betweeen thinker and thought...and even a possible "union" of sorts...but the relationship is personally willed not merely naturally emergent.

B) With the hypostatic union in Jesus (linked to the Incarnation of God's "Word/Memra"), we can use an analogy I've used before...

Uncreated <=> Fire (heat, light, etc)
Created <=> Razor sharp metal blade
Created permeated by Uncreated <=> White hot metal blade

Like your ocean water/sponge analogy, it shows interpenetration of one reality by another without confusing or conflating things. You have metal that can burn things and give off light...and you have the power of fire able to cut like a razor. And in the state of interpenetration, one cannot be effectively separated from the other, even though the two are not fused or confused.

So, it would be like this...

Uncreated "Word/Memra" properties <=> Fire
Human body and soul properties <=> Razor sharp metal blade
Incarnate "Word" <=> White hot metal blade, the "Sword of the Spirit", if you will...

In short, one doesn't need to propose any natural or necessary God-Creation relationship in order for panentheism to be true, and one doesn't need to propose any type of fusion or confusion of Uncreated and Created for the hypostatic union to be viable.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

It'll be nice if we don't jump to conclusions.....as yet

but we i'm not really jumping to conclusions. my position can harmonize all the passages within the bible. yours cannot. in light of this, how exactly would i be jumping to conclusions? again, here is what i had said:

it is more than obvious that it is teh christian who is correct because christians say that christ is both god and man. muslims only claim that jesus is man and so they have to ignore large parts of teh bible which contradict them. christians agree with the whole bible because it clearly teaches what they claim (notice how both of us were able to find references to show that jesus is god and that jesus is man? isn't this what christians have been saying the whole time?). clearly the bible supports my position and not yours (but once again, i am more than happy to discuss particular passages) and so we now are back to the question of coherence.

anyway, let us move on to the rest of your post:

If at all the essence was the same why would he say "The Father is greater than I" ?!….this indicates that he considered himself inferior to God the Father of the "Trinity" of which he EQUALLY (acc. to ya'll) is a part!?

yes, christians do believe that the essence is exactly the same yet remember that christians also believe that when the second person entered his creation for the purposes of redemption, he also took on a second nature. as such, of course the father would be positionally greater than him given that christ took on a human body. notice what the athanasian creed says:

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ.

so the whole point of the father being greater than christ has to do with christ assuming a human body. seeing as he took on a second nature and did not change the divine nature into a human one, then of course he would be inferior to the father as it regards his humanity for humanity is even inferior to angels! on a slightly different note, if christ was ontologically inferior to the father then he certainly would not have commanded people to honour him exactly as the father is honoured (john 5:23). so once again, we have an instance where christ claims inferiority to the father but another instance in which he claims equality. this once again is in keeping with the christian understanding. your argument can only work if we ignore all the passages that contradict it (and you would agree with me that one cannot argue that way) while mine works precisely because we consider everything that christ says about himself. once again it is the christian understanding that is correct and not the islamic one.

And on asking his disciples who he was, Peter said "Messiah of God"…now why such an answer if they believed that he was God Incarnate or Son of God or simply God (if the essence is the same)?!?!

what is the problem with christ being called god's messiah? was he not the messiah? if christ is also fully human then does it not follow that both human titles and divine titles apply to him? once again, given that we argue that christ is both god and man then anything that you bring up to show that he was a man fits in nicely with my point.

"...yet not my will, but yours be done" <---the Christians say that the will of each person of the Trinity is the same...here Jesus himself testifies to the fact that his will is not the same as God's..

as man christ did indeed have two wills. once again, the bible clearly teaches the matter of the hypostatic union. the question now becomes, whether this doctrine is at all coherent and this is why i had asked you to read my initial post because the bible is quite clear that christ is both god and man. this is why there are passages in the bible that show that christ is man, and passages in the bible that show that christ is god.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I agree wholeheartedly with these statements you made, Siam:

--Jesus Christ(pbuh) would be one who is at the highest level of God-awareness(Taqwa) which would automatically make his "nature" as one who willingly submits to God's will.


--The "created" (us) change---we are born,live and die. When we develop/grow in spirituality---it is not that we are "filled" with the Divine, for God does not change.(Al-Hallaj) God does not "fill" some spaces or leave from some spaces. God is forever present. What changes is our perceptions/awareness/attitude. God always was, is, and will be, ---we change in our level of awareness. God is independent of us---but we are completely dependent upon him. That is why God is above all creation and all creation submits to him. Yet, at the same time, God is intimately personal. We---the created human beings---worship/submit to God directly and personally without intermediaries....it is a one-to-one intimacy....even though it is one-sided---that is, God is the All-Giving, we are the recievers/takers.....even our worship of God is for our benefit not God's.


--in unity simply means that OUR awareness of Divine presence is so high that we "willingly submit to God's will" (Islam) in such a way that our will is no longer evident/relevant to us---the "change" is completely on the side of humans/us. This change in us does not effect Divine-presence for God is independent of his creation. ----it matters not if creation exists or ceases to exist, God always was, is, and will be.

I would just like to add that just because God is omnipresent doesn't mean that God does the same thing at every place and time. In other words, it is possible for God to do something in one location that God is not doing at another such that God can manifest Himself specifically in a certain way in a certain place and time in a way that is not happening elsewhere (ala Moses' burning bush, pillar of fire/cloud before Israel, etc). I submit that God Himself is working in and through Jesus of Nazareth's submitted humanity such that Jesus has perfect awareness and receptivity of Divine Presence and perfectly "embodies" and re-presents the uncreated, pre-existent "Word/Memra" of God the Father in human existence in the "white hot metal blade" way.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Totally LOOOOOOOOVE your thinking, Siam. Kudos, bro!

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
Tawheed(Unity)= God is One, Independent of his creation, but all creation is dependent on him.

This is just my view...

Trinity (Triunity)= Following the Shema that Jesus believed, God (the Father, who is inseparable from His Self-Communicating, Creative Word and Spirit) is One, and is absolutely independent of His Creation, which is continually and necessarily dependent upon God the Father "speaking" it into existence from no-thingness by His Word and Spirit.

"By the word of YHWH the heavens were made, and by the Breath of his mouth all their host."

Question for Siam: How does my view of Trinity fundamentally negate Tawheed?

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

This is all also why I believe that Jesus is the perfect "embodiment" of God's Word, who never failed to follow the live the Great Commandments of God. Jesus is like a living, breathing "sermon" from God Himself about how we are to live as human beings. Jesus was the perfect example of loving submission to God and God's Will.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

This is all also why I believe that Jesus is the perfect "embodiment" of God's Word, who never failed to follow the live the Great Commandments of God. Jesus is like a living, breathing "sermon" from God Himself about how we are to live as human beings. Jesus was the perfect example of loving submission to God and God's Will.

The problem is right here - all prophets are people guided by God and never failed to live and be examples of Gods commandments. Jesus pbuh indeed was that just like Moses pbuh, Muhammad pbuh abhrahm pbuh etc were. The Quran also talks about Jesus's pbuh being God's word and is known in Islam as Ruh Allah or the spirit of God - but that does not support the divinty of christ whats so ever.

Christ was just like any other prophet before him and after him.