truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

SolInvictus:
i have repeatedly said that i found nothing wrong with yielded's conception of the trinity.

Thanks for clearing that up for Zafran.

**************************

SolInvictus:
i find it a bit odd that you identify only the father as being involved in the shema.

Isaiah 63:13-15

Look down from heaven and see,
from your holy and beautiful habitation.
Where are your zeal and your might?
The stirring of your inner parts and your compassion
are held back from me.
For you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us,
and Israel does not acknowledge us;
you, O Lord (YHWH), are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.

I believe that the prophet Isaiah believed that the "Father" he was talking to was the ONE GOD of the Jewish Shema.

Now...

Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6...

-----------------------

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

--------------------------

Now, my assumption is that both Jesus and his disciples were GOOD JEWS who prayed to the ONE GOD of the Shema who they, AS JEWS, called "Father", just like prophets Isaiah and Hosea did before them.

Make sense?

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

psalm 2:7 is a prophetic psalm which christians consider to speak of christ. your points don't actually prove what you're saying. can you find us anywhere where an individual is called god's only-begotten son? christians consider themselves children of god yet this is not in the same sense as christ being the son of god. if you can find a reference to another individual being the only-begotten son then you'll have a point. i'll be waiting naidamar.

Tell me where in bible Jesus is called the only begotten son of God, and I can give you other bible versions that omit the word "begotten" because it's such an addition (fabrication).

Your own bible verses clearly mentioned that Jesus is not the only "son of god".

So, shouldnt you also worship those other prophets as your god(s) as they are also called "son of god" in the bible?

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

once again it is only you that has misunderstood things. yielded has specifically said that christ has always been god and with god. what he has however said concerning the shema is that it has in mind only the father. this isn't all that different to when christians say the father is god. they have in mind only the first person of the trinity and not the other two yet this does not then mean that neither of these are the one god as well. the trouble i have with yielded is on what basis he says that the shema is to be understood in the same sense as "the father is god" and not whether he is saying that jesus is not god. the only one's who keep willfully misunderstanding him are both you and naidamar

Not realy as he still hasnt made it clear why he said that the God in the shema is NOT Jesus?? even if the Jews didint know about Jesus pbuh he still should have been included in the shema - its a clear mistake on Yieldedones point there - making things more confusing.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

the only one's who keep willfully misunderstanding him are both you and naidamar.

LOL.
YO just refuted you that Jesus is not the ONE GOD with this post:

Now, my assumption is that both Jesus and his disciples were GOOD JEWS who prayed to the ONE GOD of the Shema who they, AS JEWS, called "Father", just like prophets Isaiah and Hosea did before them.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

so one christian believes jesus was god that was worshipped by all prophets, and another christian believes that jesus is not the god that the prophets worshipped.
That's what everyone's understanding here.

Will the real christian stand up?

As Zafran said, how many different concepts of God(s) are there in christianity?

oh dear, i find it particularly entertaining that the individuals whom this matter actually pertains to are agreed that they have the same trinity but those who themselves claim to not understand the matter have taken it upon themselves to say that we are actually not in agreement. on what basis can you say so? perhaps on the lack of understanding that you have already expressly attested to?

SolInvictus:
i find it a bit odd that you identify only the father as being involved in the shema.

Isaiah 63:13-15

Look down from heaven and see,
from your holy and beautiful habitation.
Where are your zeal and your might?
The stirring of your inner parts and your compassion
are held back from me.
For you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us,
and Israel does not acknowledge us;
you, O Lord (YHWH), are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.

I believe that the prophet Isaiah believed that the "Father" he was talking to was the ONE GOD of the Jewish Shema.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

here we have christ being called the father. i think that there are two senses in which the bible uses the term father when it comes to god. the sense in which he is the creator who gave birth to everything else (and as such this would also be a title of christ) and the sense in which the intra-relationship between the members of the trinity is characterized by a father and a son (along with the spirit). the old testament speaks of the father mainly in regards to having created the world (as such this applies to the son) and particularly having created the nation of israel (and again this would speak of the son as well). i find that this understanding is more in harmony with the text than yours but i might be wrong. let me know what you think yielded.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Oy friggin vay. Can we PLEASE get back to the hypostatic union thing, please? Trying to pit Christian vs Christian is just avoiding the main issues here.

Bottom line: Not EVERY Christian are univocal in thinking on these things, for whatever reason...just like not EVERY Muslim believes that the Quran is uncreated...right???

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sorry, Sol...but I really don't want to further chase this rabbit trail. I would just ask you to read this about the N-C Creed...and then think about it.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

That's just what the Creed says, bro.

Let's get BACK to the topic please: "How is it that Christians can think that Jesus can be "Immortal" and "Mortal" at the same time?" I am asking for an evaluation of the theological model that I've been proposing here. That's the MAIN ISSUE I'm trying to deal with on this thread. I tried to talk about the Trinity to be helpful to Naidamar...but now we all out in left field. So forget that now. Let's get back on track.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Whole Thread in Glances

----------------------------------------

Naidamar:
Stop confusing me further, YO.

All I can ask you to do is DO SOME READING of your own on this subject. That's what I did to understand the assertions of the uncreated nature of the Quran and "Mother of the Book" thing. I put in the time and effort. You can too, if you so wish. There are plenty of scholarly materials you can access on line at your own pace that will give you TIME to look at things piece by piece. This context is really not the best for this, especially right now. mg:

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

All I can ask you to do is DO SOME READING of your own on this subject. That's what I did to understand the assertions of the uncreated nature of the Quran and "Mother of the Book" thing. I put in the time and effort. You can too, if you so wish. There are plenty of scholarly materials you can access on line at your own pace that will give you TIME to look at things piece by piece. This context is really not the best for this, especially right now.

I have done my share of reading, but new information about trinity confuses me further. You have no idea how many christians I spoke to describe trinity in so many ways than you can ever imagine, from yolk-eggshell-eggwhite to iron-burning iron-liquid iron to water-steam-ice, but everytime a new descrition is offered, it was never able to withstand a further simple enquiry.

And then your bibles confuse me also, one bible says jesus is son of god, another says he is servant of god. One bible says he is the only begotten son of god, another doesn't say he is begotten.

And now, you are confusing me further with jesus is god, but then jesus is not god. and that jesus is not the one god, but he is very god from very god.


.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Check your Private Messages box, Naidamar. Got something for you there...

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

So, Siam. I guess you're my last hope, homie. Can't wait.

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

;Dlooks like someone lit a fire on this thread!!!;D

---YO, I find it interesting that you have agreed with the explanations I have given about God using Tawheed. It seems to me that this means there is nothing about the Concept of ONE God (Shema/Tawheed) that you find objectionable, intellectually compromising, or intuitively abhorrent . ---I think that this was a positive out come of this discussion.

There are a few misunderstanding I wanted to clear up......
1) I used the word "necessary" in my arguments because in one of your replies to my question if Christians could accept 100s-in-1 as the same as 3-in-1, you replied that it was not "necessary"----I thought this was an interesting perspective, and also a valid one....considering that we both agree that God is not arbitrary---which means that God does not do things on a whim or "for the fun of it"--but does so with purpose.

2) This idea that God does things for a purpose is also spelled out in the Quran. If you are at all familiar with the Torah---this might be a different concept because the Torah's descriptions of events are difficult to fathom (when it is read raw---but Jews do not read it raw, they have a rich interpretative tradition which encourages a diversity of viewpoints on given events of the Torah). IMO, any proposition that God does things simply because "he can" sounds juvenile. After all, if God created us as intelligent and further, expected us to use this intelligence by seeking knowledge----it seems logical that we would seek to fathom---because otherwise, we might as well believe blindly---in which case we would be no different from the Pagans of Mecca or the people of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) who also based their beliefs on blind faith and tradition.....

3) The "chosen people" idea is from 2 Jewish people I spoke with (on different occassions) but they said that it was an idea in their tradition that made them uncomfortable....that they themselves do not hold the view. However, I apologoise if my wording was undiplomatic.

4) Previously, propbably like many other Muslims---I did make an honest effort to try to understand the trinity---but it is very true---most Christians have a variety of opinions/concepts about their doctrine---You do know that there are about 30,000 or some Christain denominations and they all have different nuances and perspectives---and since Chrsitians are always re-inventing their history----relying on history is no help either to clarify this issue---particularly as your history itself is filled with bickering on the issue. Remember I asked about Miroslav Volf and his ideas?---and you said they were orthodox?--- A. McGrath (Christian Theology: an Introduction) writes that some scholars think that when Tertullain mentioned "personae" (Latin) which was translated as "persons" in English-it may have been that Tertullian actually meant "persona" as in a mask a Greek actor puts on when playing different characters...... McGrath outlines the development of Christian theology----over a period of time, as a response to various other Christian and Non-Christian ideas about God. And these developments continue today..... I think anyone who thinks Christian theology is static is mistaken--it has never been static.

;DPersonally---I have long ago admitted defeat in ever understanding Trinity and its related doctrines. It is no longer an area of interest for me....what interested me in this discussion was not the trinity/incarnation itself but your responses/comments.----which is the main reason for my engagement.....

I have benefited from this discussion as it has clarified my own thoughts---knowing is one thing, but expressing it coherently to another is completely different;D

As to the incarnation---I'm afraid I will have to dissapoint you-----;DI find it objectionable, perplexing, intellectually unsatisfying, and intuitively unappealing---hopefully this clears up my stand on the hypostatic union

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

if you take on a second nature then by definition you have not changed the first one. no change happened to the divine nature, he merely took on a second one.

i think i'm losing track.....which verse again are we talking about?...

i see nothing wrong with the above

That doesn't answer my question...repeating it..
Peter only says "Messiah of God" PERIOD…doesn't he find it necessary to continue saying like son of God, God etc?"

because in being found a man, he submitted himself as a man to the will of the father.

Didn't the Prophets (pbut) before him do just the same?!.....each of them was equally submissive to God.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. [...] 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. --- 1 Corinthians 1:18-20; 27-30 NIV

hmmm......

can you find us anywhere where an individual other than christ is called god's only-begotten son?

The proof is right there....read bro naidamar's post again...
Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Now here God calls David too his begotten son!!....does this mean that David also shares His Divinity?!

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
Siam:
---YO, I find it interesting that you have agreed with the explanations I have given about God using Tawheed. It seems to me that this means there is nothing about the Concept of ONE God (Shema/Tawheed) that you find objectionable, intellectually compromising, or intuitively abhorrent . ---I think that this was a positive out come of this discussion

Um...I didn't have a problem with it because of my belief in One God, like I said before. I do have a problem with God-as-monad...but that's a whole different bags of worms we don't need to get into.

*****************************************
Siam:
As to the incarnation---I'm afraid I will have to dissapoint you-----I find it objectionable, perplexing, intellectually unsatisfying, and intuitively unappealing---hopefully this clears up my stand on the hypostatic union.

Well, it's just as well. There will come a day when Jesus himself will let us now the degrees of error on our theologies. May God have mercy upon both of us when that time comes.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Didn't the Prophets (pbut) before him do just the same?!.....each of them was equally submissive to God.

no one here is arguing that the prophets didn't do the same so i'm a bit lost to what you're saying.

The proof is right there....read bro naidamar's post again...
Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Now here God calls David too his begotten son!!....does this mean that David also shares His Divinity?!

first of all, christians believe that the psalm is actually prophetic concerning christ yet i don't even need to argue this given that what naidamar has shown is actually no proof at all. the actual word for only-begotten in monogeneis and even in the greek translation of that passage by the very jews themselves, we do not have that word there. the word is only used of christ. naidamar has merely made a mistake and that is no proof at all.

hmm, i really do think that you have to read my first post on the matter before we can continue with this subject.

That doesn't answer my question...repeating it..
Peter only says "Messiah of God" PERIOD…doesn't he find it necessary to continue saying like son of God, God etc?"

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." --- Matthew 16:16 NIV
hopefully the above will put the matter to rest now. once again, can you please read my first post concerning the hypostatic union?

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

first of all, christians believe that the psalm is actually prophetic concerning christ yet i don't even need to argue this given that what naidamar has shown is actually no proof at all. the actual word for only-begotten in monogeneis and even in the greek translation of that passage by the very jews themselves, we do not have that word there. the word is only used of christ. naidamar has merely made a mistake and that is no proof at all.

Are you calling me a liar? and that I have no proof?

Here's the proof from your own King James Version bible where God called David His begotten son:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Still dont believe me? Here's the source from your online bible: http://kingjbible.com/psalms/2-1.htm

Still dont trust one bible? Here. let me give you another bible Douay-Rheims Bible: http://drb.scripturetext.com/psalms/2.htm

7 The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

If you want more bible versions of the verse, just let me know, dont be shy, I will give you more.
You are a piece of work, Sol.
If there is anyone who made mistakes, it is certainly not me. How about possibility that the scribes of your bible made so many mistakes it is hard to tell which one is actually the word of god and which ones were the invention of creative scribes/rabbis?
How about you examining your own faith with clear head and not buried in your delusion?

LOL. And this is how you base your faith which is the salvation of afterlife??

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Are you calling me a liar? and that I have no proof?

Here's the proof from your own King James Version bible where God called David His begotten son:

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Still dont believe me? Here's the source from your online bible: http://kingjbible.com/psalms/2-1.htm

Still dont trust one bible? Here. let me give you another bible Douay-Rheims Bible: http://drb.scripturetext.com/psalms/2.htm

7 The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

If you want more bible versions of the verse, just let me know, dont be shy, I will give you more.
You are a piece of work, Sol.
If there is anyone who made mistakes, it is certainly not me. How about possibility that the scribes of your bible made so many mistakes it is hard to tell which one is actually the word of god and which ones were the invention of creative scribes/rabbis?
How about you examining your own faith with clear head and not buried in your delusion?

LOL. And this is how you base your faith which is the salvation of afterlife??

i certainly am not calling you a liar naidamar, rather i'm saying that you are wrong. there is a difference between the two and i'd much rather not engage in sullying each other's characters. that said, the above is another example of ignorance concerning what the bible teaches yet pontificating on the matter as if one knew exactly what was being discussed. first of all, christian understand the passage (psalm 2:7) as being prophetic towards christ but once again, we need not even argue it that way. let us assume that you are in fact correct in implying that the passage is only directed towards david, this would still not be a problem for christians for the following reason: we are searching to see if anyone else is referred to as the only begotten of god and not merely 'begotten'. all christians believe that they are begotten of god (John 1:13, 1 Corinthians 4:15 etc. to only name a few) but we do not believe that we are the only-begotten of God:

It is the Greek word “monogeneis.” This is not simply “begotten,” for that expression can be applied to all believers, those who have been begotten or born again by the Spirit. This is a unique expression for a unique person, the only-begotten Son of God. The expression appears in John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18. It would literally mean the “only generated one.” This is the key expression for the doctrine of “the eternal generation of the Son,” meaning, he always was the only begotten Son. The expression does not refer to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, because he is the Son from eternity past.

once again naidamar, you show how little you understand christianity and yet how quick you are to engage in insults as a means of proving your position. you incorrectly thought that 'begotten' and 'only-begotten' expressed the same idea when in fact they do not. instead of asking for a further explanation on the matter you immediately alluded to a defamation of your character and then resorted to insults and more incorrect points. hopefully in the future you will not be so quick to jump to conclusions and embarrass yourself like this. that may have been rather harsh but it certainly needed to be said.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

that said, the above is another example of ignorance concerning what the bible teaches yet pontificating on the matter as if one knew exactly what was being discussed. first of all, christian understand the passage (psalm 2:7) as being prophetic towards christ but once again, we need not even argue it that way.

About Psalm 2:7, only christians who wanted to elevate Jesus into God claimed that it is prophetic of Jesus. For Hundreds of years before and thousand years after Jesus (pbuh), the understanding of the jews is that it refers to David.
There are so many contradictions in christians trying to claim the psalm 2:7 is about Jesus

1. In many Psalms, which were mostly written by King David (i.e. Messiah David), the author writes about his life in third person, referring to himself as "the/God's/your messiah" while clearly talking about his military exploits. Thus it can be argued that many of the portions that are commonly seen as prophecies in Psalms may not be. Psalm 2, spoken of below, can be argued to be about David and not Jesus. Psalm 2:6 says "I have installed [past tense] my King on Zion, my holy hill [Jerusalem, David's capital that he captured in battle in 1 Samuel]." Psalm 2:7 says, "I [David, the author] will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me [David, the person to whom God was speaking], 'You [David] are my Son; today I have become your [adopted] Father.'" If the passage was speaking about a begotten son then that person would have been born the son of that father; he wouldn't have to become it at some later point after birth. (Throughout the Bible it is common to call saints and angels the sons or children of God.)

2. According to scholars, King David came approximately 500 years or so after Moses. So the question is: If Jesus is the Creator of the Universe or part of GOD Almighty, then how is it possible for Psalm 2:7 to be referring to Jesus, when on a day approximately 500 years after the revelations of the Book of Genesis somebody got begotten by GOD Almighty? Did the GOD of the Bible became a triune GOD after 500 years of His first Revelations? And if so, this still contradicts trinity, because in Psalm 2:7, we would then have a dual god and not a triune god!



3. Also, trinitarians claim that Jesus had always been begotten by the Father, then the verse contradicts that claim if christians still insist that the verse is prophetic of Jesus.


So, the trinitarian claims that Psalm is about prophecy of Jesus holds no water, unless you want to creatively invent things which are not at all implied in psalm and which are not in accordance with judaic interpretation and history.


So we can safely assume that God in the bible calls other also "begotten"

let us assume that you are in fact correct in implying that the passage is only directed towards david, this would still not be a problem for christians for the following reason: we are searching to see if anyone else is referred to as the only begotten of god and not merely 'begotten'. all christians believe that they are begotten of god (John 1:13, 1 Corinthians 4:15 etc. to only name a few)

So we agree that the term "begotten of God" is metaphor, correct?
and the son of God is metaphor also, agree?

but we do not believe that we are the only-begotten of God: It is the Greek word “monogeneis.” This is not simply “begotten,” for that expression can be applied to all believers, those who have been begotten or born again by the Spirit. This is a unique expression for a unique person, the only-begotten Son of God. The expression appears in John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18. It would literally mean the “only generated one.” This is the key expression for the doctrine of “the eternal generation of the Son,” meaning, he always was the only begotten Son. The expression does not refer to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, because he is the Son from eternity past.

The term monogene is not reserved only for Jesus (pbuh), in bible it appeared a number of times, both in the OT and the NT:

The word occurs five times in the Septuagint:

• Judges 11:34 "she was his (i.e. Jephtha's) only child (e monogenes, female)"
• Psalm 22:20 "deliver my soul from the sword, my only begotten (life?) from the hand of the dog."
• Psalm 25:16 "I am an only child (monogenes) and poor."
• Psalm 35:17 "deliver my soul from their mischief, my only begotten (life?) from the lions."
• Jeremiah 6:26 "as one mourns for an only child (monogenes)"
• Tobit 8.17 "they were both an only child (duo monogeneis, of two different parents)
• Wisdom of Solomon 7:22 "there is in her (i.e. Wisdom) a spirit quick of understanding, holy, as an only child (monogenes), manifold.

The New Testament contains 8 uses, all adjectival:

• Luke 7:12 "her only son (o monogenes uios)"
• Luke 8:42 "only daughter (e monogenes thugater)"
• Luke 9:38 "only son (o monogenes uios)"
• John 1:18 textual variation in manuscripts: a. "only begotten" God (monogenes theos / b. "the only begotten Son" (o monogenes uios)
• John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son (o monogenes uios)"
• John 3:18 "he has not believed in the name of God’s only son (o monogenes uios)"
• Heb.11:17 "only-legitimate son (o monogenes uios)" – since Abraham also fathered Ishmael, from the slave girl Hagar, and six other sons, from Keturah.
• 1 John 4:9 "God sent his only Son (o monogenes uios) into the world"

By the way, did you also notice that the word monegene was also used to describe Isaac, although he was neither the first born nor the only son. Hence, we know that monogene does not mean "the only begotten son".
Also, did you notice that in RSV, the word John 1:18 reads "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, ...."
and in ISV it is "his unique son" because the root word for both ginomai and gennao is gen.
notice no begotten there.
The Greek term for "begotten" in ancient Greek is "gennao" {ghen-nah'-o} as found for example in Matthew 1:2. In the verses under consideration, however, the word used was not "gennao" but "monogenes" {mon-og-en-ace'}.
"Monogenes" is a Greek word which conveys the meaning "unique" and not "begotten." Thus, the true translation of this verse is "His unique son."

And We all know from the Qur'an that the birth of Jesus pbuh was unique and that his creation is that like Adam pbuh

And from other bible verses that I've posted here, "son of God" in bible does not mean literal son, because there are many whom God Himself referred to as His son.


I also like (notice sarcasm here) how you jumped from "his only begotten son" to "his eternal son".

you incorrectly thought that 'begotten' and 'only-begotten' expressed the same idea when in fact they do not.

It seems you are so behind the latest revisions of bible based on scholarly work that throw out the word "begotten" from bible.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." --- Matthew 16:16 NIV

a human being who called Jesus (pbuh) "the messiah, son of god"?
Big Deal!

God himself called other prophets his "son of God"

hopefully the above will put the matter to rest now

I understand that you prefer to follow the words of man rather than the words of God. It's your choice, really.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

About Psalm 2:7, only christians who wanted to elevate Jesus into God claimed that it is prophetic of Jesus. For Hundreds of years before and thousand years after Jesus (pbuh), the understanding of the jews is that it refers to David.
There are so many contradictions in christians trying to claim the psalm 2:7 is about Jesus

1. In many Psalms, which were mostly written by King David (i.e. Messiah David), the author writes about his life in third person, referring to himself as "the/God's/your messiah" while clearly talking about his military exploits. Thus it can be argued that many of the portions that are commonly seen as prophecies in Psalms may not be. Psalm 2, spoken of below, can be argued to be about David and not Jesus. Psalm 2:6 says "I have installed [past tense] my King on Zion, my holy hill [Jerusalem, David's capital that he captured in battle in 1 Samuel]." Psalm 2:7 says, "I [David, the author] will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me [David, the person to whom God was speaking], 'You [David] are my Son; today I have become your [adopted] Father.'" If the passage was speaking about a begotten son then that person would have been born the son of that father; he wouldn't have to become it at some later point after birth. (Throughout the Bible it is common to call saints and angels the sons or children of God.)

2. According to scholars, King David came approximately 500 years or so after Moses. So the question is: If Jesus is the Creator of the Universe or part of GOD Almighty, then how is it possible for Psalm 2:7 to be referring to Jesus, when on a day approximately 500 years after the revelations of the Book of Genesis somebody got begotten by GOD Almighty? Did the GOD of the Bible became a triune GOD after 500 years of His first Revelations? And if so, this still contradicts trinity, because in Psalm 2:7, we would then have a dual god and not a triune god!



3. Also, trinitarians claim that Jesus had always been begotten by the Father, then the verse contradicts that claim if christians still insist that the verse is prophetic of Jesus.


So, the trinitarian claims that Psalm is about prophecy of Jesus holds no water, unless you want to creatively invent things which are not at all implied in psalm and which are not in accordance with judaic interpretation and history.


So we can safely assume that God in the bible calls other also "begotten"




So we agree that the term "begotten of God" is metaphor, correct?
and the son of God is metaphor also, agree?




The term monogene is not reserved only for Jesus (pbuh), in bible it appeared a number of times, both in the OT and the NT:

The word occurs five times in the Septuagint:

• Judges 11:34 "she was his (i.e. Jephtha's) only child (e monogenes, female)"
• Psalm 22:20 "deliver my soul from the sword, my only begotten (life?) from the hand of the dog."
• Psalm 25:16 "I am an only child (monogenes) and poor."
• Psalm 35:17 "deliver my soul from their mischief, my only begotten (life?) from the lions."
• Jeremiah 6:26 "as one mourns for an only child (monogenes)"
• Tobit 8.17 "they were both an only child (duo monogeneis, of two different parents)
• Wisdom of Solomon 7:22 "there is in her (i.e. Wisdom) a spirit quick of understanding, holy, as an only child (monogenes), manifold.

The New Testament contains 8 uses, all adjectival:

• Luke 7:12 "her only son (o monogenes uios)"
• Luke 8:42 "only daughter (e monogenes thugater)"
• Luke 9:38 "only son (o monogenes uios)"
• John 1:18 textual variation in manuscripts: a. "only begotten" God (monogenes theos / b. "the only begotten Son" (o monogenes uios)
• John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son (o monogenes uios)"
• John 3:18 "he has not believed in the name of God’s only son (o monogenes uios)"
• Heb.11:17 "only-legitimate son (o monogenes uios)" – since Abraham also fathered Ishmael, from the slave girl Hagar, and six other sons, from Keturah.
• 1 John 4:9 "God sent his only Son (o monogenes uios) into the world"

By the way, did you also notice that the word monegene was also used to describe Isaac, although he was neither the first born nor the only son. Hence, we know that monogene does not mean "the only begotten son".
Also, did you notice that in RSV, the word John 1:18 reads "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, ...."
and in ISV it is "his unique son" because the root word for both ginomai and gennao is gen.
notice no begotten there.
The Greek term for "begotten" in ancient Greek is "gennao" {ghen-nah'-o} as found for example in Matthew 1:2. In the verses under consideration, however, the word used was not "gennao" but "monogenes" {mon-og-en-ace'}.
"Monogenes" is a Greek word which conveys the meaning "unique" and not "begotten." Thus, the true translation of this verse is "His unique son."

And We all know from the Qur'an that the birth of Jesus pbuh was unique and that his creation is that like Adam pbuh

And from other bible verses that I've posted here, "son of God" in bible does not mean literal son, because there are many whom God Himself referred to as His son.


I also like (notice sarcasm here) how you jumped from "his only begotten son" to "his eternal son".


It seems you are so behind the latest revisions of bible based on scholarly work that throw out the word "begotten" from bible.

first you sidetrack the discussion from jesus to one concerning david when we were agreed on the matter that it did refer to david (though christians view this as a double fulfillment but we need not get into this). then you start bringing up verses in which monogeneis is used of other individuals but naidamar, what is the christian claim? it is the fact that monogeneis is only used for christ in reference to being god's only begotten son. can you provide for us verses that actually have to do with this claim or will you once again provide for us information which was never contested nor talked about? please get to proving your point instead of filling up your post with information which does not pertain to the discussion. once again, all that i'm asking for is for you to provide us with bible passages in which monogeneis is used in reference to anyone else being god's only-begotten son.

there was no jump between only begotten and eternal son. if you had any knowledge of christianity at all you would know that they actually are interchangeable and in fact teach the same thing.

somewhere i your post you seem to wish to say that monogeneis should be translated as unique son, still this would not in fact prove your point because only-begotten speaks of a unique position that only christ has. while we can all be called the sons of god in a general sense, only christ can be called the son of god in the sense of complete uniqueness which testifies to divinity. once again, you fail to prove your point.

a human being who called Jesus (pbuh) "the messiah, son of god"?
Big Deal!

God himself called other prophets his "son of God"

naidamar, once again, are you keeping up with the discussion at all? once again you display your ignorance in that you do not understand that the poster had asked for a quotation in which peter specifically calls christ the son of god and as such one was provided. the matter of the prophets also being called the sons of god is a moot point because all believers are the sons of god in a general sense yet once again we are back the claim concerning monogeneis in that christ is the only-begotten son of the father. you have just made the same mistake twice in a row.