truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

peacelover said:
I have to disagree here.
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that is a matter of opinion and not particularly important in this thread (that said, i'm sure you'll agree that adam was not perfect and hence why he had to ask for forgiveness, and as i understand it, muhammad was not perfect either. although some muslims agree to this and some don't).
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I guess my thing is simple:
If pre-existent, "beginningless" speech articulated in created ink, paper, and writing is a meaningful, viable concept in Islam...I'm really trying to see the philsophical impossibility of the pre-existent, "beginingless" Word/Memra of God being articulated in created human flesh and blood.

Interestingly enough, some Shia see this and notice. Check out this poster on a Shia discussion board...

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We disagree with the Sunni views on this. Saying anything other than Allah is pre-eternal, pre-existent, beginningless, etc., is dangerous territory.

We say it is neither khaaliq nor makhluuq, as the latter when applied to kalaam in Arabic can have the sense of being a lie, fabrication, fictitious, etc. Rather, we use the term (muhdath), originated.

The Sunnis entangled opinions on this are perhaps partially due to a failure to make a distinction between the eternal attributes of Allah and His action. As Shaykh Saduq says in his creed:

"For example, we say that Allah was from ever Hearer, See'er,
Omniscient, Wise, Omnipotent, Having power, Living, Self-existent, One
and Eternal. And these are His personal attributes. and we do not say
that He was from ever Creating, Doing, Intending, pleased, displeased,
Giving sustenance, Speaking; because these virtues describe His
actions; and they are not eternal; it is not allowed to say that Allah
was doing all these actions from eternity. The reason for this
distinction is obvious. Actions need an object. For example, if we say
that Allah was giving sustenance from ever, then we will have to admit
the existence of sustained thing from ever. In other words, we will
have to admit that the world was from ever. but it is against our
belief that nothing except God is Eternal."

If we are to say that His speech is eternal, therefore the Quran is eternal, well why should we stop there? Is His creating and giving sustenance eternal to? So therefore, is the universe and everything in it eternal? Really, this talk of the kalaam being eternal does sound an awful lot like the Christian doctrine of the pre-existent logos, word, which they identify as being God, incarnated in the Christ (a`udhubillah).

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I thought that was HILARIOUS! It's obvious that the Shia poster saw the philsophical viability opened up with the assertion. ;D

Tooooooooo funny! :D
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
The first: is the view of the Mu’tazila that it is created.

The second: is the view of the Kullābiyya that it is beginningless present with the being of the Lord. It is not letters and sounds, while what is found in the midst of people is an expression of it, not it itself.

The third: is the view of the Sālimiyya that it is letters and sounds that are beginningless in essence. And it is actually these written letters and sounds heard.

The fourth: is the view of the Karrāmiyya that it is newly uttered (muhdath), not created (makhlūq)…

And the fifth: is that it (the Qur’ān) is the speech of Allah, uncreated, and that He has been – since before creation - speaking whenever He pleases.
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the problem there is with those who would claim that the qur'an is eternal is the fact that they have now posited two eternals, the muslim deity's and that of his speech which possesses a separate existence outside of him (in that it is not him). so then the muslim deity is not actually "the first and the last" but rather "one of the firsts and one of the lasts". if however the qur'an is part of his being then we have just posited something that is not allah yet shares in the same essence as allah and as such we now have two divine entities who are not each other yet subsist within the same essence. this is starting to sound like the makings of the trinity (though in this case it would be a dyad. can anyone imagine saying the following, "the qur'an is god").

edit: once again you have preempted me to the point yielded. perhaps i should just hang my hat and let you do the talking.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol:
the problem there is with those who would claim that the qur'an is eternal is the fact that they have now posited two eternals, the muslim deity's and that of his speech which possesses a separate existence outside of him (in that it is not him). so then the muslim deity is not actually "the first and the last" but rather "one of the firsts and one of the lasts". if however the qur'an is part of his being then we have just posited something that is not allah yet shares in the same essence as allah and as such we now have two divine entities who are not each other yet subsist within the same essence. this is starting to sound like the makings of the trinity (though in this case it would be a dyad. can anyone imagine saying the following, "the qur'an is god").

However it's taken, one thing is clear: it cannot be said that this idea is INCOMPATIBLE with Islamic metaphysics. The whole Sunni/Shia conversation on this issue assumes Tawhid and all the other standard Islamic assumptions. And remember that the Sunni position is the MAJORITY, ORTHODOX position which specifically says that the Quran is uncreated "beginningless" speech expressed in created ink, paper, and writing. This means that it cannot be said that the concept is fundamentally anti-Tahwid. If it were, it wouldn't be the majority position.

We confess that the Quran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration, and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of man."
--Abu Hanifa

So, I don't see how the idea of the preexistent Jewish Word/Memra being expressed in human flesh and blood is so off base...given what Sunnis supposedly already believe.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Oooooooh. I know what to ask. Tee hee.

Yo, NAIDAMAR!

Do you agree with Abu Hanifa's statement about the Quran? If so, why? If not, why not?

Oh, I can't wait to see this. :)
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Whole thread in glances.

------------------------------------

The Qur'aan as the Kalaam of Allaah
by Abû Ammâr Yasir al-Qadhî

Some of it...


As was proven in the last section, the kalaam of Allaah is not created. This, of course, implies that the Qur`aan is not created either. Ibn Abbaas, in explaining the verse, "A Qur`aan without any crookedness" (39:27), said, "This means that the Qur`aan is not created." 'Amr ibn Deenar (d. 126 A.H.) stated, "I have met the Companions of the Prophet (e), and those that came after them for seventy years, all of them said, 'Allaah is the Creator, and everything besides Him is created, and the Qur`aan is the kalaam of Allaah, from Him it came, and to Him it will return." Imaam Aboo Haneefah (d. 150 A.H.) wrote in his Fiqh al-Akbar, "The Qur`aan is the speech (kalaam) of Allaah, written in the mushafs, preserved in the hearts, recited by the tongues, and revealed to the Prophet (e)," and in another place he mentions that, "...the Qur`aan is not created." Imaam Maalik (d. 179 A.H.) was asked concerning one who says that the Qur`aan is created, what should be done to him? He replied, "He should be forced to repent, and if he refuses, then his head should be cut off!" Imaam as-Shaafi'ee (d. 204 A.H.) stated, "Whoever states that the Qur`aan is created is a disbeliever." Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241 A.H.) stated, "It has been narrated from many of our salaf that they used to say, 'The Qur`aan is the kalaam of Allaah, and it is not created.' This is also what I believe, and I am not a person of philosophy, nor do I think that philosophy plays a part in any (of our beliefs). The only (source) is the Qur`aan, or the hadeeth of the Prophet (e), or a statement of the Companions or Successors. As for anything besides these (sources), then all of it is not praiseworthy." Imaam at-Tahaawee, in his famous Aqeedah at-Tahaaweeyah, wrote:

The Qur`aan is the Speech (kalaam) of Allaah. It originated from Him as an articulated speech in a manner that is not questioned and was revealed to His Prophet (e) by inspiration. The Believers testify to its revelation. They are certain that it is the actual kalaam of Allaah, not created, unlike the speech of humans. Whoever hears it and thinks it is the speech of a man is a disbeliever whom Allaah has condemned and threatened with the Fire of Hell, for Allaah says, "I will burn him in the Hell-Fire" (74:26) to him who said, "This (the Qur`aan) is nothing but the words of a mortal" (74:25). (By these verses) we know and are certain that this (the Qur`aan) is the kalaam of the Creator of humans, and it does not resemble the speech of mankind.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

This is a way the hypostatic union can be phrased:

The human being, Jesus of Nazareth, is the product of the Uncreated (beginningless) "Kalimat" of Allah--analogous to the Jewish "Word/Memra"--being spoken in time to Mary by the will and power of Allah, bringing forth the enfleshed (having a beginning) "kalimat" of Allah, having both uncreated and created properties in his singular existence (ala complementarity).


I can't see how this is an impossibility within Islamic metaphysics as I understand it. Is this a meaningless statement? If so, WHY is it meaningless?

And the fifth: is that it (the Qur’ān) is the speech of Allah, uncreated, and that He has been – since before creation - speaking whenever He pleases.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol Invictus said:
if however the qur'an is part of his being then we have just posited something that is not allah yet shares in the same essence as allah and as such we now have two divine entities who are not each other yet subsist within the same essence. this is starting to sound like the makings of the trinity (though in this case it would be a dyad. can anyone imagine saying the following, "the qur'an is god").
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Dear Sol Invictus ,Why all these struggles ? why all you insist on making philosophical assumptions and possibility theses with no certain proof or knowledge ? I even fell into trap and tried to explain something on that unnecessary matter for me. I think firstly You have to present these possibility theses to Christians and then to aggressive atheists (Real enemies of Christianity). I mean Why don't you want to see there is no common base We can agree upon in that extraordinary useless discussion. ( Which was said already by Woodrow) . I also wonder Yielded one, Dear Yielded ,there is an ongoing physic experiment at Cern, you can compare hypostatic union ideas with reports ( But there are too much details ). Why You work on strengthening a complex assumption about Most Almighty one by using some irrelevant texts, Minds can not account for or capture too much details in this subject. You have to measure limitless information. Philosophy can not guide you or us. I see nothing beneficial for both parties on that subject. ( Sol Invictus; Sorry for my previous mistake in which I didn't intend to manipulate, There were no need to do that also as you see, I didn't reply furthermore, summarizing your message sufficed me )

If this topic was started by one of my Muslim brothers, I think It is also a mistake.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

...

She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Memra: "The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

In essence, Jesus is God’s ‘Word’ because he came into existence by God’s Word - ‘Be’ - as the Quran describes in another passage, “His word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

I am saying that this is TRUE. I am also saying that this is not merely the divine production of a human being (though it is that too), but also the particularizing enfleshment of the uncreated, creative Word of God itself!
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
In essence, Jesus is God’s ‘Word’ because he came into existence by God’s Word - ‘Be’ - as the Quran describes in another passage, “His word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

I am saying that this is TRUE. I am also saying that this is not merely the divine production of a human being (though it is that too), but also the particularizing enfleshment of the uncreated, creative Word of God itself!
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;DYour interpretation would make Prophet Adam(pbuh) as "the particularizing enfleshment of the uncreated, creative Word of God itself" (:D takes a bit of time figuring that one out!!---why not just say incarnation?) It would also make the universe as an incarnation of Word/God (Whatever)......So, such an interpretation goes against the Shema/Tawheed and is therefore incorrect.

The more correct understanding would be (according to both Judaism and Islam) that God uses various agents/agencies/processes for creation, the Word and/or Spirit among them---this does not make the "creation'/"created" into God/Semi-Divine.

You might as well give up---Incarnation is NOT , never was, and never will be , a part of true monotheism.

By the way---the "Word" (Be) is not an "entity" or "person" etc---it is simply a command.....
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
Your interpretation would make Prophet Adam(pbuh) as "the particularizing enfleshment of the uncreated, creative Word of God itself"

No, it wouldn't. I'm not saying that everything created by God's Word/Memra IS God's Word/Memra...just Jesus of Nazareth.


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Siam:
It would also make the universe as an incarnation of Word/God (Whatever)......So, such an interpretation goes against the Shema/Tawheed and is therefore incorrect.

You keep getting this wrong, bro. Again, I'm not saying that everything created by God's Word/Memra IS God's Word/Memra...just Jesus of Nazareth. Don't say I'm saying things that I'm not.

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Siam:
The more correct understanding would be (according to both Judaism and Islam) that God uses various agents/agencies/processes for creation, the Word and/or Spirit among them---this does not make the "creation'/"created" into God/Semi-Divine.

Once again, I am NOT saying that just because something is created by God's Word/Memra that is it automatically an incarnation of that Word/Memra. I'm NOT saying that.

************************************************************

Siam:

You might as well give up---Incarnation is NOT , never was, and never will be , a part of true monotheism.

Sorry, bro. I'm not just accepting bald assertions that don't deal with the philosophical viability of what I'm saying.

*************************************************************

Siam:
By the way---the "Word" (Be) is not an "entity" or "person" etc---it is simply a command.....

The MEMRA is a "cosmic power" and "uncreated speech" directly from God. That's all I'm dealing with right now.


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Siam, you have yet to make any kind of concrete descriptions of how my model is impossible within the Islamic perspective. I really don't think you can. If you could, you'd have done it by now, I'm sure. Can't you just admit the logical possibility, man? For real...
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
In essence, Jesus is God’s ‘Word’ because he came into existence by God’s Word - ‘Be’ - as the Quran describes in another passage, “His word which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)
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check out these verses carefully...

" the Originator of the heavens and the earth. when He decrees a matter, He Only says to it : "Be!" - and it is." (2:117)

" it is He who has created the heavens and the earth In truth, and on the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) He will say: "Be!", - and it shall become. His word is the truth. his will be the dominion on the Day when the trumpet will be blown. All*Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the All*Wise, Well-Aware (of All things)." (6:73)

"Verily! Our word unto a thing when we intend it, is Only that we Say unto it: "Be!" and it is." (16:40)

"it befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [This refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. glorified (and Exalted be He above All that they associate with Him). when He decrees a thing, He Only says to it, "Be!" and it is." (19:35) <--read this extra carefully...

"Verily, his Command, when He intends a thing, is Only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!" (36:82)

"He it is who gives life and causes death. and when He decides upon a thing He says to it only: "Be!" and it is." (40:68)

emphasising what bro siam said ^^ if we were to interpret his "word" as something "uncreated" (I don't understand, why on earth is there even a need to give such kinda interpretations); and then look at that which results as a consequence of it as something created (which is obvious), then in the light of all these verses each and everything that exists would be God Incarnate <-- how absurd is that!!

And..
"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! do not exceed the limits In Your religion, nor Say of Allâh aught but the truth. the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and his word, ("Be!" - and He was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by him; so believe In Allâh and his Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. for Allâh is (the only) one Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. to Him belongs All that is In the heavens and All that is In the earth. and Allâh is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171)
^ this verse is no les similar to the previous verses quoted earlier!!

An exegesis of the verse...
Al-Masih ` Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from _ created by_ Him; ) ` Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, ` Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. ` Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word ` Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of ` Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and ` Isa came to existence as a result . This incident was in place of the normal concept ion between man and woman that results in children. This is why ` Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit ) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, ` Be, ' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril.
"` Isa was not the word. Rather, ` Isa came to existence because of the word. ''

"And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all from
Him. "

meaning, from His creation. ` from Him' does not mean that it is a part of Him
Saying that something is from Allah, such as the spirit of Allah, the she-camel of Allah or the House of Allah, is meant to honor such items.

---Tafseer ibn Katheer
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
The MEMRA is a "cosmic power" and "uncreated speech" directly from God. That's all I'm dealing with right now.
Click to expand...

What's the difference between "uncreated" speech and speech of God?!
"directly" from God <--what exactly are you trying to imply??
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Peacemaker,

1) If you would notice, there is a deep similarity between the Islamic " 'Be!'-and it is" idea and the Jewish Word/Memra idea. I'd actually say that they represent the same reality, just from different religious vantagepoints.

2) I am not denying that Jesus of Nazareth's human soul and body are products of God's creative "Word" to Mary. The issue is simple: is it feasible that Jesus of Nazareth's could also be of the "uncreated speech" of God manifested temporally? I'm looking for just acknowledge it's POSSIBILITY, Peacemaker.

3) I see neither you nor Siam have mentioned your take on the nature of the Quran. Do you agree with the following...

We confess that the Quran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration, and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of man."
--Abu Hanifa

If you DO agree with the statement...then how is it a IMPOSSIBILITY that Jesus of Nazareth, who came to exist because of the creative Word of God, could actually be the "uncreated speech" of God in human flesh and blood?
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Peacemaker:
emphasising what bro siam said ^^ if we were to interpret his "word" as something "uncreated" (I don't understand, why on earth is there even a need to give such kinda interpretations); and then look at that which results as a consequence of it as something created (which is obvious), then in the light of all these verses each and everything that exists would be God Incarnate <-- how absurd is that!!

Now, you are getting this wrong too. Man! Look, it is NOT THE CASE that everything that created by God's Word/Memra has uncreated properties, simply for being created. That's NOT what's being said. What I'm saying should be fairly simple at this point: If pre-existent, "beginningless" speech articulated and expressed in created ink, paper, and writing is a meaningful, viable concept in Islam (which it obviously is!), then the concept of a pre-existent, "beginingless" Word/Memra of God being articulated in a created singular human being cannot be considered philosophically incoherent and/or impossible within Islam.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Where you at, Naidamar? :statisfie​
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

;DI've tried many ways to explain the illogic of it---you simply fail to understand.

The whole thing is so simple---that I cannot get why you refuse to see it. Muslims are governed by Tawheed---but there is another side to Tawheed called Shirk. Shirk is when humans create "partners" to God. Any attribute, agency, agents, or processes that God uses for the purpose of creation that are elevated as "partners" is Shirk----NOTHING COMPARES TO GOD. So very simple---

THERE IS NONE LIKE NOR EQUAL TO GOD....absolutely none. Got that? its really not that difficult to understand.

ALL WORSHIP IS DUE GOD ALONE---not to or through some incarnation. ----Yet, I suspect you are becomming aware of your own illogic---otherwise why would you make such a ridiculous statement as " I'm not saying that everything created by God's Word/Memra IS God's Word/Memra...just Jesus of Nazareth." ;D

The Trinity makes 2 other "things" co-equal to God---one of those "things" that is Co-equal to God is your "Jesus of Nazareth". ---who by the way---isn't an incarnate of the "Word" but is actually God incarnate---You know...100% God !----Do try to keep you own doctrines straight:D Worship of a 3-in-1 Godhead is NOT worship of GOD ALONE---not matter what kind of mental acrobatics you do to decieve yourself.

---face upto it or ignore it ---either way is fine by me......its between you and God.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
1) If you would notice, there is a deep similarity between the Islamic " 'Be!'-and it is" idea and the Jewish Word/Memra idea. I'd actually say that they represent the same reality, just from different religious vantagepoints.
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Because you've provided a link....Okay, let's see what the Jewish Encyclopaedia has got to say ...

Biblical Data
"frequently it denotes also the creative word" ---agree.
""The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God"
This is apparently Shirk.

Personification of the Word---I ain't reading that….Won't benefit me..AT all! (the concept of incarnation is not there in Islam)

Mediatorship-- hmmm..looks like it's a continuation of the personification thingy.. concerns me?! I think NOT!

The Logos-- Does this/Memra seem similar to "Be, and it is"?!…u gotta be kiddin me!!

sooo....i think we've efficiently dealt with this...any similarities?...Nah!

YieldedOne said:
The issue is simple: is it feasible that Jesus of Nazareth's could also be of the "uncreated speech" of God manifested temporally? I'm looking for just acknowledge it's POSSIBILITY
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"uncreated speech"..u mean His Word…yes it is...infact, not only was Jesus (pbuh) rather; all of us are "temporal" creations/ manifestations (if would like to call it) come-into-existence by His Command/Word/uncreated speech*…any doubt?!
*that reminds me u didn't answer my questions.
What's the difference between "uncreated" speech and speech of God?!
"directly" from God <--what exactly are you trying to imply??
Click to expand...

YieldedOne said:
We confess that the Quran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration, and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of man."
--Abu Hanifa
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Definitely...i wholeheartedly agree with Imam Abu Hanifa.

"could also be of the "uncreated speech" of God" --> "actually be the "uncreated speech" of God"---u see the subtle shift in what ur claiming?
First decide on which side u are. Cuz both the phrases don't convey the same in any way whatsoever!

YieldedOne said:
it is NOT THE CASE that everything that created by God's Word/Memra has uncreated properties, simply for being created.
Click to expand...
But factually, the case is that NONE of that created by God (by His Will/Command/Word) has "uncreated" properties.

YieldedOne said:
If pre-existent, "beginningless" speech articulated and expressed in created ink, paper, and writing is a meaningful, viable concept in Islam (which it obviously is!), then the concept of a pre-existent, "beginingless" Word/Memra of God being articulated in a created singular human being cannot be considered philosophically incoherent and/or impossible within Islam.
Click to expand...
Incarnation IS and will be considered philosophically incoherent and impossible within Islam and the Majesty Of God Almighty!

----------------
P.S- Just so that you know, I have no issues with you calling me Peacemaker....just that...u know i have my own identity...never mind...
and infact, literally speaking it's better of a title than peacelover... :statisfie
 

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