truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I am not particularly interested in the history of the geo-politics of that time period---if we are discussing philosophy itself---fine, ......otherwise I agree with GS, all that needs to be said on the subject (incarnation) has already been said.......

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Fine. I'm done.

Thanks for the interaction, y'all.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Fine. I'm done.

Thanks for the interaction, y'all.

Does this mean you are or are not ready to take up the subject that we were debating between the two of us earlier?

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

GraceSeeker:
Does this mean you are or are not ready to take up the subject that we were debating between the two of us earlier?


As I'm looking, our differences seem to be that you don't believe that there is any meaningful distinction between the "One God" and "One Lord" in the Nicene and N-C Creeds while I do. It's probably better that we just agree to disagree. After all, this is just a "2%" difference between us (your words) and, I believe, an issue of differing emphasis. Nothing major. With respect to the "The Issue: The Nature of Christ--Was He the same substance as God or what He created?"...I've mentioned that I stand firmly that Jesus was co-substantial with God the Father in deity. Soo...I don't know what's left to say on that.

What's the outcome that you want for us debating this subject?

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Looks like everybody else is already done with the discussion….Sooo me too giving my conclusion…
Lemme address this first….

Let's give an example of what this looks like theologically. God displays unsurpassable, infinite virtue. Sentient creatures display surpassable, finite levels of virtue. The "compatibility" is simple: Both God and sentient creatures can express virtue. Of course, infinitude and finitude are "two extremes"...but there is still "compatibility" such that we can speak of virtue in terms of God AND in terms of creatures. This doesn't negate the mutually exclusion between the full reality of God's infinitude and creaturely finitude.

Again, Peacelover, the main thing I'm trying to show is that there IS a category of thought (complementarity) that allows for things with seemingly contradictory properties belonging to the same singular object. In this case, the "Immortal" permeates, but not destroys, the "Mortal", such that both the "Immortal" and "Mortal" can coexist in the same singular object.

I ain't negating mutual exclusion here…that's of course there and in fact it makes things easy…...
And that's what I'm sayin too….mortality and immortality are entirely mutually exclusive and that there is no possibility whatsoever of these two existing together in a thing….
On earth it's gotta be either 'mortal' or 'immortal'.

I don't see any benefit in continuing with the fire-metal analogy that u've provide cuz I cannot see what u're trying to show and it seems that neither can u see what I'm trying to show.
And moreover the analogy doesn't work either….it itself is limited and specific…u can’t use it, just out of the blue as a logical explanation for something 'in-fact-impossible' to exist.

The concept of w-p duality could be perfect as an example for the theory of 'complementarity'…but it cannot be used to support that a person can be mortal and immortal at the same time.
Which is just like saying "That Priest is such an infidel"…
Now will you say that "I know a person who is both a priest and an infidel, ofcourse 'priesthood' and 'infidelity' are mutually exclusive and contradictory yet priesthood is not infidelity and infidelity is not priesthood but that person is both a priest and an infidel…Just like "the singular reality of an atom functions as BOTH wave and particle, even though some "wave-like" aspects of an atom are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE from the "particle-like" aspects of that same atom, yet a wave is NOT a particle and a particle is NOT a wave...but an atom is BOTH a wave AND a particle.?!!


So finally, here goes my conclusion…..

Your argument: Jesus of Nazareth was both mortal and immortal…

Refutation:
Logically- It's not logically sound because the fire metal analogy cannot be applied to this; neither can the w-p duality, nor your comparison of this with the Quran being the Word of God Almighty.

Theologically:
Acc. to Islam- To believe as such is committing Shirk (Association), and hence within the realm of Islam it's not only impossible rather it is highly condemned and punishable by God.

Acc. to Christianity- As I see the Bible (the part coherent with Islam), and as far as I can understand its verses, I feel there is no base for such a belief in there either…..My advice to you…do read more of the Quran and try to understand its Message, I'm sure it'll lead you to the Truth…like 100%.

May The God Almighty Guide you to the Truth. Ameen

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Thanks, Peacelover.

Later.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Thanks, Peacelover.

Later.

No issues......

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

as far as my beliefs go, we follow individuals whom have actually seen their lord; you however follow an individual who has never seen his lord.

FYI the Message of all the Prophets sent on earth was the same and a person is required to have belief in all of 'em including the final prophet, Muhammad (pbuh), inorder to be a true believer in God Almighty.

So who's being ignorant here?!

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

FYI the Message of all the Prophets sent on earth was the same and a person is required to have belief in all of 'em including the final prophet, Muhammad (pbuh), inorder to be a true believer in God Almighty.

So who's being ignorant here?!

that's an unsupported premise. you can't claim such a thing as a fact and then use it to make a point. the fact is that the above may very well be true but you have no way of proving this, as such you cannot claim the above as a fact and then imply that i'm ignorant. once again, you may certainly believe the above but as far as our discussion goes, it is an unsupported premise.

anyway, it would seem that i have offended you with what i had said earlier and that certainly wasn't my intention. you are one of the few muslims on this board who has exemplified common decency in your response towards both myself and other christians and out of respect for this, i'd rather not betray this good will. that said, though i certainly do stand by what i said, i did not mean to offend and as such i apologize if it came off as if my sole intention was to malign your prophet.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

As I see the Bible (the part coherent with Islam), and as far as I can understand its verses, I feel there is no base for such a belief in there either…..My advice to you…do read more of the Quran and try to understand its Message, I'm sure it'll lead you to the Truth…like 100%.

greetings peacelover. the above is perhaps the greatest problem that i have with muslims. notice that you do not let the bible stand on its own merits but rather you filter everything through the lens of the qur'an. of course in your reading you'll find no basis for our beliefs because you merely ignore everything that contradicts your beliefs. would you like it if we did the same when we read the qur'an, as in simply ignore everything that doesn't follow our teachings and then claim that there is no warrant for the muslim understanding as it concerns your holy book. the above is a perfect display of what i feel to be muslim arrogance in that they call others to read their holy book in the manner that it presents itself yet refuse to do the same with the bible. they feign ignorance to as to whether the bible teaches the divinity of christ etc. or things like that when the matter is actually quite clear if they didn't simply ignore the verses that they didn't like. i would ask that you also follow your own advice as it concerns the bible.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

double post. delete please.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

that's an unsupported premise. you can't claim such a thing as a fact and then use it to make a point. the fact is that the above may very well be true but you have no way of proving this, as such you cannot claim the above as a fact and then imply that i'm ignorant. once again, you may certainly believe the above but as far as our discussion goes, it is an unsupported premise.

greetings Bro Sol,

I learned from the various Christian websites that I browsed that for y'all there are like major and minor Prophets, the most important being Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel….i dunno if this is how it is …anyway…This is what I got from there…it's talkin about the Prophets and their functions…(those in blue are my comments)

Their Directive or Message
As God’s spokesman, their message can be seen in a three-fold function they had among the people of God in the Old Testament:
First, they functioned as preachers who expounded and interpreted the Mosaic law to the nation. It was their duty to admonish, reprove, denounce sin, threaten with the terrors of judgment, call to repentance, and bring consolation and pardon…….

--U knw the setting of the Mosaic Law...don't u?....it was revealed to Moses (pbuh) by God Almighty….The Prophet (pbuh) confirmed it and preached the same Message as was in it and God revealed the Quran to him just as the Torah was revealed to Moses and Injeel to Jesus (pbuh)……now doesn't this show that their Message was the same?!

Second, they functioned as predictors who announced coming judgment, deliverance, and events relating to the Messiah and His kingdom. Predicting the future was never intended merely to satisfy man’s curiosity, but was designed to demonstrate that God knows and controls the future……….

Islam teaches exactly the same…..
All the prophesies made in the Quran were accurate…also as a sign of the Omnipotence of God.

Finally, they functioned as watchmen over the people of Israel (Ezek. 3:17). Ezekiel stood as a watchman on the walls of Zion ready to trumpet a warning against religious apostasy.

Okay…so it's clear that the Prophets preached the Mosaic Law….
Some info on the same…

The Origin and Source of the Mosaic Law
Though part of the Law was mediated by angels, God is the origin and source of the Mosaic Law, which stems from the eternal and holy character of God. This is true even of the natural law written in the heart or conscience of man (Exodus 31:1b; Acts 7:53; Rom. 2:14-16; Heb. 2:1-2).
The Nature and Content of the Mosaic Law
It is common to divide the Mosaic Law into three parts as illustrated below, but though this is helpful for analysis and the study of the Mosaic Law and the way it functions, such a division is never stated as such in Scripture. Rather it is seen as a unit. Arguments for this will be given below.
• Part 1: The Moral Law or the Ten Commandments. This part of the Law governed the moral life giving guidance to Israel in principles of right and wrong in relation to God and man (Exodus 20:1-17).
• Part 2: The Judgments, or the Social Law. This part of the Law governed Israel in her secular, social, political, and economic life (Exodus 21:1–23:13).
• Part 3: The Ordinances or the Ceremonial Law. This was the religious portion of Law which guided and provided for Israel in her worship and spiritual relationship and fellowship with God. It included the priesthood, tabernacle and sacrifices (Exodus 25:-31: Leviticus).

So you see…the Message given by God to all of His Prophets was the same and Islam is in conformity with what was preached by them…..not just the four major Prophets but all of 'em….from Adam (pbuh) to the last prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Now, u might argue with me that Christianity doesn't talk about Muhammad (pbuh)…..but as a matter of fact it does predict his coming as the Final Messenger from God Almighty….
I don't mind starting the "Who is the Paraclete?" discussion all over again!
(still feel guilty for the closing of the previous 'Paraclete' thread….. *sigh* imsad )

(If u wish you cud do the honors…and maybe….umm…u could give your reasons as to who you think the parakletos is and why you think it's not the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).)

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

the above is a perfect display of what i feel to be muslim arrogance in that they call others to read their holy book in the manner that it presents itself yet refuse to do the same with the bible. they feign ignorance to as to whether the bible teaches the divinity of christ etc. or things like that when the matter is actually quite clear if they didn't simply ignore the verses that they didn't like.

I'll tell ya why this happens……
1) The present Bible is not as authentic as the Quran….(I came across a few sites that talk about the contradictions in the Bible…never actually went thru those…so another task for me!...one shudn't blindly believe what others claim!)

2) There are some controversial verses in the Bible…..in the sense that the Christians interpret it in a way and the Muslims and the others in other ways...and so it's not clear as to what exactly God Almighty wanted to convey thru those…

3) It is undeniable that the Quran is the Final Word from God Almighty…..or at least if you don't believe in this yet;….you cannot deny that it is free from contradictions, it's literary style is inimitable, it has no error in it (grammatical, or otherwise), the accuracy of its prophecies, the scientific facts in it, the historical facts....etc, etc..

4) God Almighty is the SOLE Author of the Quran……once upon a time this was the case with the Injeel and the Torah too…but everybody knows that the Bible that is available today is a mixture of the Divine Words of God and the thoughts and beliefs of various authors……..it's no longer in its pristine Divine form!


I wouldn't call it arrogance….it's just a natural tendency…perhaps… :hmm:

anyway, it would seem that i have offended you with what i had said earlier and that certainly wasn't my intention. you are one of the few muslims on this board who has exemplified common decency in your response towards both myself and other christians and out of respect for this, i'd rather not betray this good will. that said, though i certainly do stand by what i said, i did not mean to offend and as such i apologize if it came off as if my sole intention was to malign your prophet.

Offended…Not exactly… just that it's not at all right to demean a person who is considered as a Prophet by millions of peep…and when there is a possibility that he is also mentioned in your Scripture…
And the fact that He was such an ideal slave of God Almighty…No doubt he deserves respect irrespective of whether you follow him or not….
*Peace be upon him*

Thanks for the compliment btw…

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I ain't negating mutual exclusion here…that's of course there and in fact it makes things easy…...
And that's what I'm sayin too….mortality and immortality are entirely mutually exclusive and that there is no possibility whatsoever of these two existing together in a thing….
On earth it's gotta be either 'mortal' or 'immortal'.

So, peacelover, let me just ask you a single question (with several anticipated follow-ups): Are you personally mortal or immortal?

 

[Chavundur]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

As far as our discussion with Christians is concerned, I see no middle point among Muslims and Christians again. Even We can't agree on meanings of basic words like father, mother, humility, oneness. You have to forget what father means if You want to understand God as a father in Christianity, or the word " son ". I mean our discussion can only be started with ignoring some discords in the sight of us. Sol Invictus says that You filter everything through the lens of the Qur'an. Actually that statement isn't right when We consider sources of Islam but I think Sol try to point out that Why don't you pay attention to the old testament or new testament. If We say these test are corrupted throughout 300 years. I know another endless discussion will start.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings Bro Sol,

I learned from the various Christian websites that I browsed that for y'all there are like major and minor Prophets, the most important being Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel….i dunno if this is how it is …anyway…This is what I got from there…it's talkin about the Prophets and their functions…(those in blue are my comments)

</p>
Perhaps the most significant prophet in the history of Israel after Moses is Elijah, but he isn't considered either a major or minor prophet. The reason, he doesn't have any books named after him. FYI: The terms "major" and "minor" prophets have nothing to do with their relative importance, but with the size of their respective books.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

If We say these test are corrupted throughout 300 years. I know another endless discussion will start.

Yes, you are right about that. The reason is clear, we begin with different assumptions about the validity of our respective texts. But Sol's point does make some sense, if you expect a Christian who holds the Bible to be valid to discount it and then read the Qur'an as if it were 100% true, why would it be any less appropriate to ask a Muslim to do the same with regard to our sacred texts?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Now, u might argue with me that Christianity doesn't talk about Muhammad (pbuh)…..but as a matter of fact it does predict his coming as the Final Messenger from God Almighty….
I don't mind starting the "Who is the Paraclete?" discussion all over again!
(still feel guilty for the closing of the previous 'Paraclete' thread….. *sigh* imsad )

(If u wish you cud do the honors…and maybe….umm…u could give your reasons as to who you think the parakletos is and why you think it's not the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).)

Offended…Not exactly… just that it's not at all right to demean a person who is considered as a Prophet by millions of peep…and when there is a possibility that he is also mentioned in your Scripture…
And the fact that He was such an ideal slave of God Almighty…No doubt he deserves respect irrespective of whether you follow him or not….
*Peace be upon him*

In my opinion it is wrong to demean anyone. But neither Sol no I would be speaking truthfully if we were to say that we see any signs of the one you consider your prophet as having been mentioned any place in either the Tanakh or the writings of the New Testament.

With special attention to the question you raise again about the paracletos, I've written on this extensively many times and do anticipate that some day there will be a new thread on the subject for the 23rd or perhaps 103rd time. So, I won't go into in detail here. But simply take a look at what the paracletos is described as doing, principally leading people to faith in Christ and bringing glory to Jesus. I have no evidence from anyone that this is what Muhammad (pbuh) was principally known for, so that effectively excludes him from being the paracletos that is mentioned by Jesus.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

What's the outcome that you want for us debating this subject?

Why to redeem your heretical Arian soul. What else? Just joking.

More seriously. I think you misunderstand the Nicene Creed itself and the issues that it was attempting to speak to. Thus, from my perspective (and not mine alone, btw), you've turned its intent on its head and seem to get from it the very opposite of what historically the council was trying to convey.


However, I can understand if you don't want to go into all of that here. So, let me recommend a book that I believe will help you to clear up some of the misconceptions I believe you have convinced yourself of:
Heresies and How to Avoid Them: Why It Matters What Chrisitians Believe, by Ben Quash and Michael Ward. The book contains key scriptural passages relevant to each heresy, a glossary of terms, and summaries of historical Church documents in which these heresies were defined and outlawed.

Topics
Adoptionism--did Jesus become the Son of God at his baptism?
Docetism--was Jesus really human or did he just appear to be so?
Nestorianism--was Christ one Person or a hybrid with a divine dimension and a human dimension?
Arianism--was Christ divine and eternal or was there a time when he did not exist?
Marcionism--is the God of the New Testament the same as the God of the Old?
Theopaschitism--is it possible for God to suffer in His divine nature?
Destroying the Trinity--does God have a simple or a complex nature?
Pelagianism--can people save themselves by their own efforts?
`The Free Spirit'--are there two kinds of Church membership, one for the elite and one for the rest?
Donatism--do Christian ministers need to be faultless for their ministrations to be effective?




Perhaps key to our particular disagreement at the moment are a couple of lines from the Chaledonian Definition that I'm going to highlight by simply lifting them out:
"Following the holy fathers, we . . . acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in the Godhead . . . of one substance [homoousious] with the Father as regards his Godhead . . . one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ...."
Nicea is NOT affirming belief in one God who is the Father, and a second belief in Jesus who is the Lord. It is affirming one belief in God who is Father and who is Son. And who as the Son, Chaledon goes on to clarify, is also known as the "Only-begotten God," but as Nicea affirmed we are still talking about just one God (not multiple gods), the very one you know as Father is also known as Son (and Holy Spirit, too, if you want to go that far).</p>

 

[truthseeker63]

Many Christians claim that Bible Prophecy and events in history proves the Bible but

Many Christians claim that Bible Prophecy and events in history proves the Bible but in my opinion it can't because of these reasons I think the Scie
Numerous prophecies fulfilled.
Prophecies weren't meant to predict the future. The word originally meant "divinely inspired speech." Not until 1300 did it come to mean "predicting future events." [Oxford English Dictionary] Besides, there are lots of mundane ways to predict the future:

1. Make the wording sufficiently vague that, with proper interpretation, it could apply to practically anything.
2. Predict something which has already happened.
3. Rewrite history to say that your prediction was actually fulfilled.
4. Give no time limit for the prediction.
5. Predict something which is extremely likely to occur.
6. Make so many predictions one of them is bound to occur. Later, edit out those that failed.
7. Predict something that you yourself can cause to happen.

All of the predictions below can be fit into one or more of these categories.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt/bible.html#prophecies